How much better will the Dline be?

[opcat]

http://kansasstate.rivals.com/boxscore.asp?Game=24006&Team=KANSASST

Good enough to stop teams from rushing it down out throats? 

[Pike]

I hope the 3-4 doesn't = death for us.

[ksuno1stunner]

Better?  I dunno dude.  Why don't you find out for us?

[Poopley]

There isn't anyone on the current roster who can replace what Echols brought when he felt like trying. Moran and Cline are decent when healthy. Crews = not ready for prime time. Kendall was a big disappointment in the spring game. Balkcom hasn't bedazzled anyone.

Tibesar will just have to scheme around our lack of a bigtime NG.

Everyone knows that our best DL is Rob Jackson. Ian Campbell was over-hyped last year, but he's okay. Childs and Manu . . . meh. After that, you have Faustin.

They expect Xzavier and the other new guys to need some time. We really need Abana to arrive ready.

In the end, we all saw what our DL was like against Rutgers when we didn't have Q (before Cline tore his ACL and all the wheels came off). You can probably expect a similar level of play when we go up against an OL as clicking, talented, and motivated as Rutgers'. It won't be pretty, but with our high octane offensive machine, it won't matter. 

[Legore]

I don't know if it will be better or not.  It wasn't as bad last year as people make it out to be we had Campbell a first team all big 12 selection, Jackson an emerging DE that got some all league honors and Echols who got drafted.  Junior Moran also played at a pretty high level before his turf toe injury which kept him out of the last 4 or so regular season games.

To me the problem last year was scheme and personel choices.  The tampa 2 sucks at stopping the run you've got your D-line getting up field at all costs and your LB's trying to read the play and always thinking about droping back into coverage and you've got both your safety's back deep out of the box.  It just doesn't make for a good run defense especially against college offenses that use the QB as a runner on a regular basis.  On top of that they took Blake Seiler who was a good run stopping DE and turned him into a liablity against the run by moving him to DT.  They basically did everything possible to ensure we had a crappy run defense even though going into the season I didn't think the personell was really all that bad for stopping the run. 

So I don't know if the DL well be as talented as last year but I think we'll be a better run stopping team because they are going to put a priority on it.  Moran has to be a good player in the middle and I think he has the experience and ability to be a good not great NG for us.  We know Rob Jackson is a fine player and I think we'll find someone to play the end oppositive of him.  The pass rush is going to come from the OLB's and Jackson so that person no matter who it is just needs to stop the run and keep people off the LB's.  Manu, Balkcom, Faustin, Abana I think one of those guys will step up and do a servicable job there for us. 

[fb]

Let's be honest.  Our chances of Abana being ready from day 1 are slim.  History tells us it simply won't happen.  Just like Jackson needed time to get acclimated, Abana will too.  Jackson didn't really start to standout until the Oklahoma State game (game #6) Plus, Abana hasn't played much football in his life.  His technique will most likely be lacking and I am guessing well coached and talented teams like Auburn and Texas will be able to simply negate his obvious physical studness (I just invented that word ).  If we were starting our season with the schedule that the beaks were, it wouldn't be much of a worry for me.  The problem is we have two top 10 teams in the first four games. 

[Pete]

I see us having a similar year as last year...in that we'll fall prey to the weakness of our scheme.  Last year we allowed bigger running plays because our D-line was charging up field and our LBs were mind f@ccked trying to figure out if they needed to drop or play run.  Typical problems when your personnel isn't suited for the Cover 2.

This year we'll probably give up 3-4 yard fairly easily between the tackles.  That's what happens when you have poor personnel for the 3-4.  On the plus side, we'll likely be better on options and sweeps, and overall give up less long runs.

[The Manhatter]

geez.  If you read this thread one would think we had future pro bowlers season after season at DT or something.  We don't need a first rounder in at NT to have success stopping the run...or even being solid on D.

Moran was really playing well last year before the turf toe injury.

I don't expect much from Crews but he can give us 15-20 good snaps a game.  Cline can give us some decent snaps per game.  We don't need a penetrating NT in the 3-4...we just need someone who can hold their ground.  The 3-4 calls for activity from the LB's..not the DL.  While it would have been nice to have Echols in this 3-4 he took too many plays off...and I see no reason why Moran, Cline, and Crews can't be competent there.

Besides...the DE's in a 3-4 scheme in college are far more important than the NT...it's when you get into the NFL game where having that grunt zero technique is more necessarily.

Moran is better than some on here believe him to be.

[catzacker]

Moran hasn't really shown it, consistently.  And relatively speaking the NT is just as important in college as it is in the NFL, it's just the size of the NT that is different.  The quote I heard from a former player on Crews was "he is a lazy piece of $%^&".  Kendall hasn't shown anything either, although he's coming back from an injury and Balkom and Cline are average, at best, D-lineman. 

All that being said, the reason I look forward to the 3-4 (and with Tibesar running it) is that I expect to see more aggressiveness while at the same time more "scheming".  Our defense last year looked very simplistic. 

[FBWillie]

Also, I doubt we'll be in the 3-4 100% of the time...  I expect to only see it against teams that don't have a solid running game.

I'm really not as concerned about it as everyone else seems to be.

[fb]

I agree some but the fella in the middle needs to at least require some attention from one of the guards to have it be an effective scheme.  If teams can just have center handle our guy in the middle and one guard lock in on Abana, then Jackson will likely get some attention from the other guard and get chipped by the tackle too.  Abana is a perfect 3-4 DE.  What scheme did his JuCo run?  I can't remember his video from the ksu site but I thought he was playing 2 or 3 technique in a 4-3.  Again not huge transition but there is a little difference of him making contact with his inside or outside shoulder, etc...not things I am going to expect a very inexperienced raw guy like Abana to pickup in a heart beat.  Throw in that despite whatever a kid says, he is not working as hard as the guys already on campus. 

Yes, the backers should give guys headaches but Campbell isn't a speed demon so if he is not up on the line, the QB better be going through his progression a few times if we want ian to get there.  If Ian is on the line, he'll get attention and not really have that element of surprise we would hope for from the 3-4 scheme that is also largely popular with some for the way you can bring pressure from all over.

I just wish we had a week after the first four games so the staff could take a week and break down film and have a chance to work with the new guys that were not here for spring practice.  I really think Tibesar is a good teacher but I fear he will lack the time to teach what he wants from some guys.

[The Manhatter]

has anybody figured out how we went to a bowl last year and went 4-4 in conference play?  I mean if you listen to some around here you would think every player we have is a POS.

[Legore]

Moran hasn't really shown it, consistently.  And relatively speaking the NT is just as important in college as it is in the NFL, it's just the size of the NT that is different.  The quote I heard from a former player on Crews was "he is a lazy piece of $%^&".  Kendall hasn't shown anything either, although he's coming back from an injury and Balkom and Cline are average, at best, D-lineman. 

All that being said, the reason I look forward to the 3-4 (and with Tibesar running it) is that I expect to see more aggressiveness while at the same time more "scheming".  Our defense last year looked very simplistic. 

Moran played well last year before he got  hurt especially in the first few games of conference play.  He might have been outplaying Echols at that point.  The guy is only going to be a junior next year which is the season I think most lineman really come into their own.   The big thing for him is he needs to stay healthy if he does that he'll be productice.  

Cline is solid, experienced and he will battle but is fairly limited physically.  Crews has the body not sure about the rest I've heard differing opinions of him but I thought he played well in the spring game.  Kendall didn't have a great spring but he was 8 months removed from ACL surgery and missed basically the entire fall.  This past spring were his first practices at the college level so I think some are being a little hard on him.  You get more practices in the first few weeks of fall camp then he got all spring.  He'll learn to play with better leveridge it just takes time and reps.  Balkcom is going to play DE in the 3-4 I don't think you'll see him at the NG spot.  

[doom]

Quintin was not drafted.  He's a free agent for the Colts.

[fb]

has anybody figured out how we went to a bowl last year and went 4-4 in conference play?  I mean if you listen to some around here you would think every player we have is a POS.

Finishing the season the way we did + the spring game are surely the reason for some of the doomer and gloomers.  I think people were hoping to see improvement in the last part of the season.  We got embarrassed twice instead.  The Texas win lost its zing fast when the beaks and their piss poor defensive line spent all day treating Freeman as a punching bag.  I have heard people give me the excuse of we had guys hurt in the beak game, well do you honest to god think we beat Texas if McCoy is not knocked out?  Injuries happen and we have to deal with them.

The defense lost its core group at LB and we are going through a change schematically that most agree is not the best suited for the current roster. 

Josh had a bunch of success at home and in front of 12 buffs fans in Boulder.  You can't tell me that it isn't at least ok to have some skepticism of what he will do @Auburn and @Texas and how the o line will keep him from getting worked.  Plus, the book was out on Josh that he rolls out to his right often and is far more dangerous that way rather than standing in the pocket for much time.  Now Josh needs to evolve.  Sure it was the spring game/glorified practice, but that is the last memory of him fresh in most minds. 

I love the cats but I am not willing to look past some shortcomings that seem important.  When we couldn't protect the QB or stop the run and the best chances for that changing are juco kids that won't be here until summer/fall (Abana, Liu, and Sims) as well as a guy that missed some of spring ball due to a tragic situation (who we also all learned is about 3 inches shorter and over 25 pounds smaller than first believed)...yeah I can get a little curious as to how the season might turnout.

Bill Snyder may have built the program but that offensive line class that so many felt would be the foundation of greatness (Boss, Bedore, Handy, Spexarth, Hafferty, etc) has been awful and left Prince with very little to work with on the OL.  All those d end decommitments are now being felt too.  I get the feeling some are putting the problem with both the o and d line on Prince, which isn't fair in my opinion.

With all that said, I think we beat SJS, MoSt, ku, CU, Baylor, ISU, and Fresno.  The 2008 Cats are the team I feel could be great with all the jucos having a year under the belt to go with a more experienced Brown and Hogan for Josh to throw to.

[catzacker]

has anybody figured out how we went to a bowl last year and went 4-4 in conference play?  I mean if you listen to some around here you would think every player we have is a POS.

Special teams.  Think about how many games we would have won in the '04 and '05 season if we would have had the special teams we had this past year. 

[catinthehat]

"Tibesar will just have to scheme around our lack of a bigtime NG. "

in the 3-4 that is impossible.  that is the most important spot in the entire scheme

[catinthehat]

"The tampa 2 sucks at stopping the run "

players stop the run, not schemes.

[sonofdaxjones]

Here we go, the cornhole climbs aboard to show us how much she knows about football.

      

[The Manhatter]

fb, do you need a refill?  I see your glass is half-empty.

Seriously, talking about the spring game?  When has a spring game ever shown anything for any team?

A few things...not sure how Freeman worked his way into a DL thread but he was a true freshman surrounded by inexperienced player learning a new offense.

and who are "most" that disagree w/ the 3-4 based on our roster?  Coaches or internet hacks?  Do you honestly think it's just going to be straight 3-4 or do you suppose we might use Campbell as a stand-up DE?  I would imagine we'll be in a true 3-4 less than 50% of the time.

We'll miss Diles...not so much Archer IMO. 

Not sure why our best chance to protect the QB is just juco kids...we may have had some young OL trying to figure out a new offense...or something like that.  Bedore and Stringer are good OL...Robinson and Unruh were adequate.  We' will fill a few holes w/ JC's not unlike you see in other programs.  For example Georgia will start the Haverkamp from Silver Lake via Butler CC.  Oklahoma started 1 JC OL last year and will likely start two this season.  Hmmm..I see a trend here.

Bedore was not in the OL class...he was recruited as a defensive player.

[fb]

I am not saying the spring game is the definitive example of anything...just saying that is the last memory for some.  Heck if I wanted to go overboard, I think Watts and Jordy played half ass in the spring game.  We ALL know that won't be the case come gameday, yes?  Just pointing it out that the spring game left a bad taste.

I really don't care if Bedore was recruited for the d line, he is on the o line.  That is why I include him in that group.

OU and UGa's o line JuCo's were semester grads that went through the whole spring.  If you want to include Alesana as a definite player to be an impact, ok.  I won't do it on the other 2 yet for next season due to them not being here for spring.  Not to be a debbie downer, but the limited film on Poti from 2007 shows Alesana on the other side and he made nice first contact but he seemed to struggle maintaining postion.  I think Alesana is a guard playing tackle-just like Wafford.  How can anyone say so many guys were adequate when we were so bad on the o line?  Again, the o line was left in shambles and Prince needs a long time to turn it around.  It also hasn't been brought up, but there is roughly a 50% bust rate for JuCo's. 

Stringer still needs some muscle.  I know Prince likes athletic o line etc etc etc.  That is fine but it doesn't change Nick is still lacking in the strength department.  His feet are big time but he is not going to move anyone back with consistency yet.  Again, a guy I think will be big for us in 2 seasons and just ok next.

Unruh is so slow.  I don't expect much from him other than a #2 spot somewhere.  When a guy isn't able to sustain a spot last year after being in the program for a little bit, I am not going to get excited or optimistic about him.  Guys like a 250 lb Trevor Viers were thrown into the mix cause the healthy guys last season weren't getting it done.  Viers has some potential but he needs a lot work on his body.  I hope he gets there but the guy needs 30 lb at least.  Sure that isn't a ton of weight but I have seen so many guys projected to be X pounds and they never get there so I am going to hope but not bank on Viers.

Logan Robinson is big.  He is slow and not physical.  He can stand in the way but not much other than that.

Trust me, I think we'll get there...just not this season.  Sims' coach even said he needs to add weight.  Let's not forget the generous size listing on Alesana before we expect Sims to come in at a size that can play in the Big 12.  Liu is a guy that sounds promising but again, he isn't on campus yet and missed spring practice.  Things will be going at light speed for Sims and Liu in August.  I just don't believe it is fair to expect JuCo o linemen to make much of a contribution their first year if they missed spring practice...therefore, I think we are going to be quite good when Alesana, Sims, and Liu are seniors.  Stringer will have another year to get bigger.

2008-Seniors-Alesana, Liu, Sims, Bedore
2008-Juniors-Stringer, Meyer
the improvement that group can have over a year could lead to big things

No of course the lineup won't be a straight up 3-4 all the time.  We've got some pieces, just not all.

Same theory on smoke and Abana although Abana probably won't need as long to get acclimated since he is on the line and it isn't as complex as the LB.  Both will be there this year and contribute but in 2 seasons it could be flat out scary to think what both do.

Archer always got under appreciated.  Had Archer not held a meeting at his house when all the turmoil over Boss/etc was going on, that team probably doesn't win another game.  No 40 time, star ranking, anything can measure the leader characteristic that Brandon had.  Watts is a rah rah guy but he is not the same kind of leader Archer was.  Archer got everyone calmed down and unified when the team morale was in the dumps.

Diles was guy you knew would find the ball.  I will miss him. 

If you see, I predict we win 7 games.  Not bad.  Yet when your coach talks about championships, as I think he should since that is the expectation, forgive me when I don't think this year's cats will be able to fill holes with a bunch of jucos that will be behind the curve from a physical and mental preparation standpoint to win any championship.  Give them a whole year and then we are talking!

The 2007 cats will be a team that I feel is going to go through some serious growth to prepare them for a run at the North title in 2008.

[Poopley]

Seven wins with this schedule and line would be pretty good!

btw, Liu is now in Manhattan, so hopefully he isn't a bust. 

[fb]

Seven wins with this schedule and line would be pretty good!

btw, Liu is now in Manhattan, so hopefully he isn't a bust. 

Did that happen in the last week?  Either way, my point is he wasn't here for spring practice.

[Poopley]

no, it happened yesterday. 

[The Manhatter]

OU and UGa's o line JuCo's were semester grads that went through the whole spring.  If you want to include Alesana as a definite player to be an impact, ok.  I won't do it on the other 2 yet for next season due to them not being here for spring.  Not to be a debbie downer, but the limited film on Poti from 2007 shows Alesana on the other side and he made nice first contact but he seemed to struggle maintaining postion.  I think Alesana is a guard playing tackle-just like Wafford.  How can anyone say so many guys were adequate when we were so bad on the o line?  Again, the o line was left in shambles and Prince needs a long time to turn it around.  It also hasn't been brought up, but there is roughly a 50% bust rate for JuCo's. 

Brandon Walker for OU last year was not a JC mid-year and he started at guard for them.  Deuce Lutui started every game for USC in 2004 at RT..he was not a mid-year.  Not to mention another JC started on that 2004 national championship OL for USC, John Drake.  Now he was w/ the team in 2003 but still.  Phil Loadholt missed alot of spring practice for OU..he's #1 on the depth chart.

Go ahead and think some 15 practices is the end all be all for JC OL like Haverkamp etc. but the reality is the KSU situation right now is not uncommon.  And it's not like we're expecting 5 new starters from the JC.  Maybe one or two and depth.

Stringer still needs some muscle.  I know Prince likes athletic o line etc etc etc.  That is fine but it doesn't change Nick is still lacking in the strength department.  His feet are big time but he is not going to move anyone back with consistency yet.  Again, a guy I think will be big for us in 2 seasons and just ok next.

It's bulk, not muscle.  Yes, he could use some but he'll be 285 by fall and that is big enough.  Believe it or not the college game isn't nearly as skilled as the pro game and as long as he's quick, athletic, tough, and a technician he'll be fine.  I'm sure they would like to put more meat on him but he's been under the knife in the off-season the past two years w/ some significant injuries.  He's a good player and will do just fine for us.  LOL that you think in this scheme he needs to "move back" opposing defenders...that isn't the way this OL works.

Guys like a 250 lb Trevor Viers were thrown into the mix cause the healthy guys last season weren't getting it done.  Viers has some potential but he needs a lot work on his body.  I hope he gets there but the guy needs 30 lb at least.  Sure that isn't a ton of weight but I have seen so many guys projected to be X pounds and they never get there so I am going to hope but not bank on Viers.

He's 265 and needs another 15lbs.  So you're not banking he can get to 280 when he's 265 at probably 19 years of age?  He signed w/ the idea he might eventually play OL.  The kid can really move for an OL.

Logan Robinson is big.  He is slow and not physical.  He can stand in the way but not much other than that.

christ.  You're unrealistic.  You think all of these good teams have OL w/ blazing quickness or something.  There are a crapload of Logan Robinson types on excellent teams in the college game who will never sniff an NFL team even as a free agent and may start a year or two in college.  It's not all about quickness.  Like I said...he's adequate.  We don't need an All-American or All-Conference candidate at every position to field a good OL.

Trust me, I think we'll get there...just not this season.  Sims' coach even said he needs to add weight.  Let's not forget the generous size listing on Alesana before we expect Sims to come in at a size

I don't recall anyone saying we would "get there" this year.  But there is no reason to believe an OL from a 7-6 team a year ago won't be better given the number of players back.  LOL about Alesana's size...who the F cares?  So he slides inside to guard...big deal?  Is 6-4 290 too small to play in college these days?

No of course the lineup won't be a straight up 3-4 all the time.  We've got some pieces, just not all.

Same theory on smoke and Abana although Abana probably won't need as long to get acclimated since he is on the line and it isn't as complex as the LB.  Both will be there this year and contribute but in 2 seasons it could be flat out scary to think what both do.

A 3-4 end is less complicated than a 4-3.  I don't think it's much of an adjustment for Abana going from a 5 tech DT to a 3-4 end.

Archer always got under appreciated.  Had Archer not held a meeting at his house when all the turmoil over Boss/etc was going on, that team probably doesn't win another game.  No 40 time, star ranking, anything can measure the leader characteristic that Brandon had.  Watts is a rah rah guy but he is not the same kind of leader Archer was.  Archer got everyone calmed down and unified when the team morale was in the dumps.



I don't think we're going to San Antonio either but I definitely want the head coach and players believing they will.  It's not impossible...we do play in a crappy North division.

[fb]

If you want to think we surround Alesana and Moore with the same level of talent, go ahead cause you can ease guys into those situations when they have NFL players at almost all the other spots.  It is more than 15 practices.  You get reps with the team, an entire semester to get into the groove of classes, conditioning, all of the stuff.  There is a little more than showing up to a practice and leaving.  The coaches also get a chance to give the kids some feedback before two a days.

Look, you don't want to see it my way and I don't want to see it your way.  I am done.  It isn't like I hope I am right but just trying to be realistic. 

What is your prediction on the cats record?

[bigdeal]

I don't proclaim to be the end all be all of defensive football knowledge, but I believe the function of the NG in a 3-4 is to occupy two blockers.  If he does that, the whole defense has the opportunity to be successful.  If he doesn't...well, not so much.  I believe that is why most 3-4 teams want a hulking, unmovable object at the NG position.  It clogs up the whole offense in the middle and forces the offensive line to use two guys to move him...if at all.  Everyone else makes plays...if the one guy in the middle can just clog up the middle.   

[The Manhatter]

I don't proclaim to be the end all be all of defensive football knowledge, but I believe the function of the NG in a 3-4 is to occupy two blockers.  If he does that, the whole defense has the opportunity to be successful.  If he doesn't...well, not so much.  I believe that is why most 3-4 teams want a hulking, unmovable object at the NG position.  It clogs up the whole offense in the middle and forces the offensive line to use two guys to move him...if at all.  Everyone else makes plays...if the one guy in the middle can just clog up the middle.   

Quick, somebody name for me these hulking 3-4 NG's in the college game.  Seems I recall when OU went to the 3-4 in several games last year their NG was 6-2 275 Corey Bennett.

Seems to me when LSU played the 3-4 in their national title team in '03 they had a 6-1 285 "immovable object" at NG.

USC used a hybrid 3-4 this past season..yep, you guessed it...a larger than life 295lb NG.

Maybe it's just me but since the college game isn't as skilled me thinks the NG doesn't have to be 325lbs...maybe in the NFL they need some real girth but in college...mmmm, gonna say "no" on that one.

[FBWillie]

Before another person talks about a &@#%ing NG; it’s been said before. You talking about a NG that requires a double team in a 3-4 is not news to anyone.  We've all heard it.  It's not new.  You're not adding anything to the conversation…. We know.