Date: 24/08/25 - 11:18 AM   48060 Topics and 694399 Posts

Author Topic: Expectations?  (Read 1405 times)

May 23, 2007, 04:40:35 PM
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S. Parker

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Lately in college football it seems like everyone wants an instant miracle, and teams keep rifling through coaches until they find a guy that can win a lot instantly. However, for every Florida and Oklahoma that this works for, there is a school like Notre Dame that is held down by it. Furthermore, guys like Urban Meyer and Bob Stoops had a ton of talent already in place when they set foot on campus.

In short, I think building a program is a forgotten skill.

This brings me to my question. What are your expectations for Prince? How do you honestly see things unfolding, what will you be satisfied with the next few years, and what would he have to do to get on the hot seat?

Snyder was one of the all-time greats, but let's face it, he didn't leave the program in that great of shape the last couple of years for Prince. Personally, I saw enough positive signs out of Prince last year that I think he deserves 6 years to build, and more if things go really well.

What do you think though?

May 23, 2007, 04:58:32 PM
Reply #1

Pike

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I agree that Snyder left the program the way he found it. 9 wins in two season is awful. I think Prince should win the North within a few years and by that time we should be at a consisten 8 or 9 wins a season.

May 23, 2007, 04:58:40 PM
Reply #2

Pete

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Crap,

I'll bite....

He needs to go 7-5 this year.  The paradox is that less than that will demonstrate serious issues, and more than that will have everyone in college football singing his praises.

I'd also add that the 7-5 could be mildly upsetting if it finishes poorly, and wildly uplifting if it finishes strong.


May 23, 2007, 05:11:38 PM
Reply #3

catinthehat

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why should prince win it?  he has a suspect coaching staff and can't recruit very well. 

May 23, 2007, 05:34:29 PM
Reply #4

S. Parker

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I disagree on Prince's recruiting. Last year he filled his needs well, and he pulled in a lot of great athletes too. This year he has pulled in some good recruits early, before their recruiting took off. He is also in on some other recruits like Chris Harper and Arthur Brown that would give him an excellent class.

Recruiting aside, though, I think Prince deserves time because when KSU played well last year they played really well. Against Colorado, Oklahoma State, and Texas they didn't look like a team with a first year coach at all.

I watched the Texas game, and truth be told Prince had them on their heels the entire game, and with far less talent. It's too bad the Texas game wasn't the last game of the year because Rutgers really killed a lot of enthusiasm in the KSU fan base. Rutgers was a legitimate monster last year, and they were really pissed off about getting snubbed by the BCS. KSU pulled a much better team than they were ready for. As far as Kansas, there you just saw all of the inexperience of a first year qb with a crappy line meltdown all at once...nothing more. 

Prince needs to solidify the line really fast, but other than that I think the outlook at KSU is fairly good right now. I know rival fans are talking a lot of crap on Prince, but that's standard for any new coach. We still hear it about Callahan too. 
« Last Edit: May 23, 2007, 05:42:21 PM by S. Parker »

May 23, 2007, 05:41:41 PM
Reply #5

S. Parker

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why should prince win it?  he has a suspect coaching staff and can't recruit very well. 

I trust our coaching staff now, but until this year I thought Cosgrove was suspect. Now I don't. A lot of people still think Callahan is suspect too.

We've had our fair share of crap go wrong since Callahan took over, and in my opinion it is way to early to be judging Prince. Whenever you take over a program that's in a mess you are going to have things go wrong...for us you could say 10-70, some Solich players leaving in anger, the offense didn't work at all at first, Cosgrove's defense didn't work, Maine gave us all we could handle, Le Kevin Smith's fumble, Nunn's fumble against Missouri, Nunn's fumble against Texas, etc.

Sh*t happens.

May 23, 2007, 05:46:04 PM
Reply #6

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6-6 pr 7-5 would be fine. Prince needs another year to rebuild the horrible lines on both sides of the ball. Too many fans just are not realistic about how bad the lines were/are. We really don't have a good interior DL player going into the '07 season. Moran and Cline are, meh, okay, but they will get dominated by all better than average offenses they face.

We've rehashed the woes of the OL over and over. Even if we have some guys step up and play better at the guard spots, the tackles will struggle bigtime against mediocre and good defenses.  If we take off our purple glasses, we have to admit that
a)Stringer has a ways to go even with another year of offseason improvement under his belt.
b)There are very few jc OL transfers who come in and play at a high level their first season at D-1.
c)There isn't anyone on the current roster besides Stringer or Alesana who can play tackle without being humiliated by crappy opponents, and we really won't know about Alesana until we see him in a game. If either gets injured, we're pretty much going to be relying on guards playing out of position or maybe one of the late jc transfers. Neither of those is a good option.

Throw in the uncertainty at WR and a couple other spots, and you have a recipe for a .500ish team record, given the quality of our opponents.




May 23, 2007, 05:49:02 PM
Reply #7

S. Parker

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6-6 pr 7-5 would be fine. Prince needs another year to rebuild the horrible lines on both sides of the ball. Too many fans just are not realistic about how bad the lines were/are. We really don't have a good interior DL player going into the '07 season. Moran and Cline are, meh, okay, but they will get dominated by all better than average offenses they face.

We've rehashed the woes of the OL over and over. Even if we have some guys step up and play better at the guard spots, the tackles will struggle bigtime against mediocre and good defenses.  If we take off our purple glasses, we have to admit that
a)Stringer has a ways to go even with another year of offseason improvement under his belt.
b)There are very few jc OL transfers who come in and play at a high level their first season at D-1.
c)There isn't anyone on the current roster besides Stringer or Alesana who can play tackle without being humiliated by crappy opponents, and we really won't know about Alesana until we see him in a game. If either gets injured, we're pretty much going to be relying on guards playing out of position or maybe one of the late jc transfers. Neither of those is a good option.

Throw in the uncertainty at WR and a couple other spots, and you have a recipe for a .500ish team record, given the quality of our opponents.

I couldn't explain why to you, but it seems like offensive lines take longer than anything to rebuild once they've gone to hell. This is the first season with Callahan that I am comfortable with our line going in.

May 23, 2007, 05:51:29 PM
Reply #8

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Realistically I'd be happy with 7 or 8 wins.  It will be real tough to do if our O-line sucks again.  When we drew Rutgers for the Bowl game the first thing I said was "sh*t"...bad deal for us.  I think prince needs some time to get a roster with 100% of "his" type of players, also I'm hoping we don't have as much asst. coach turnover as we did this year.  Prince needs some time, to be honest, I think when Snyder left the cupboard was more bare than people realize...or would like to realize.

May 23, 2007, 05:59:34 PM
Reply #9

fatty fat fat

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    The very best.
I don't want to go backwords. (anything less than 4-4 would suck. 4-4 would be ok.)
It is a tragedy because now, we have at least an extra month without Cat football until next year. I hate wasting my life away but I can hardly wait until next year.

May 23, 2007, 06:13:35 PM
Reply #10

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He can't sell his vision to recruits if he has a worse record this year.  I think he needs to get to 7-5, 4-4 (at a minimum), but unfortunately I don't think he will.  The o-line is that terrible, which will force Freeman to be erratic. 

May 23, 2007, 06:18:19 PM
Reply #11

fatty fat fat

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    The very best.
5-3 would be fantastic. (it's kind of possible as well, ku,MU,CU,BU at home and isu on road)
It is a tragedy because now, we have at least an extra month without Cat football until next year. I hate wasting my life away but I can hardly wait until next year.

May 23, 2007, 06:20:03 PM
Reply #12

yosh

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7 wins (4 in conference) plus or minus 1.  Anything less than that range would be a major disappointment.  Anything more would be a monumental accomplishment.
Cada hombre un gato salvaje!

May 23, 2007, 06:58:38 PM
Reply #13

FBWillie

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There's so many unknown variables... Coach Prince could clean out Snyder's office and say "&@#% you" tomorrow...   He would lose me at that point though.

Honestly, I think everyone here is in the same boat.  7 wins would be enough to keep everyone off his back... anything less would require some serious justifying...   Like CU winning the NC and ISU finishes with 8 or 9 wins. 
The comments posted above do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of FBWillie

May 23, 2007, 07:09:52 PM
Reply #14

Bullfn33

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I agree that Snyder left the program the way he found it. 9 wins in two season is awful. I think Prince should win the North within a few years and by that time we should be at a consisten 8 or 9 wins a season.

LOL at people who say Snyder left the program the way he found it.  Wow!  Futility U anyone?!?  Someone needs a memory refresh by watching fatty's latest video masterpiece.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqWOhweImn0 

I agree that Prince should be given at least 6 seasons to get things rolling.  By rolling, I mean consistent 8, 9, 10 win seasons and winning the North at least every 2-3 years depending on how competitive it is.  Snyder left the program in much much better shape than it was in November 1988 but we were not a bowl team by any means, so Prince should get some time to lay his foundation. 

For this season, I agree with most that at least 7 wins is a must so we can get back to a bowl game.  No matter where they come from I would be fine with 7 wins.  6 wins would be disappointing and would mean we probably don't go bowling and that would be a big momentum killer from this past season.  It would be livable but disappointing and would set us back a year in recruiting.  Less than 6 wins would be pretty devastating but still way too soon to call for his firing, though I'm sure some of the Prince haters would.  Anything more than 7 wins would be great IMO and I can see us winning 8.  More than that would be ridiculously good with the schedule.

IMO, For Prince to get on the hot seat it would have to be after his 6th season or right around there.  It's kind of hard to say exactly what he needs to accomplish but I hope we could be a consistent 8, 9, 10 win team and be a contender for the Big 12 title every year.

I'm a Prince fan myself.  I see a lot of potential in him as a head coach but what I like about him the most is that if he does make a winner here he doesn't sound like he would bolt to any other job.  I'm being kind of cautious because of Huggins and all but he's from Kansas, he likes the people and the state and seems to understand what it takes to win in Manhattan.  He respects what Snyder built and I feel he really likes our program and genuinely wants this to be his one and only head coaching job.  If we hired another Joe Blow, which is most likely what we would have ended up with, I can't say I would be all that excited about the future because even if he started winning, he would probably leave before anything really great could happen.  That would leave us stuck in mediocrity or worse, for certain.  That's why I can see more long-term potential with Prince given he makes a winner.     

Show me defense.

May 23, 2007, 07:17:25 PM
Reply #15

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i'd say 6-7 wins.  the home schedule works out pretty good and a few winnable games on the road.  i'd like to see more consistency before anything.  our o-line is up in the air as well as our d-line.  i think this team needs another year to get the system down on both sides of the ball.  hard for players to be consistent when you go through since a drastic change on offense and having three different schemes on defense in three years is worse.  new coaches IMO need 4 years to get their players into the system and then we can start judging Prince.  until then hope for the best and enjoy the ride.  no kool-aid for me, i'd rather have a beer. :cheers:

May 23, 2007, 07:18:56 PM
Reply #16

cas

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National Championship. Anything else is a disappointment.
csourk is the best pre-college poster on this board.  way better than oxlp956

May 23, 2007, 09:17:40 PM
Reply #17

turbowildcat

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Lately in college football it seems like everyone wants an instant miracle, and teams keep rifling through coaches until they find a guy that can win a lot instantly. However, for every Florida and Oklahoma that this works for, there is a school like Notre Dame that is held down by it. Furthermore, guys like Urban Meyer and Bob Stoops had a ton of talent already in place when they set foot on campus.

In short, I think building a program is a forgotten skill.

This brings me to my question. What are your expectations for Prince? How do you honestly see things unfolding, what will you be satisfied with the next few years, and what would he have to do to get on the hot seat?

Snyder was one of the all-time greats, but let's face it, he didn't leave the program in that great of shape the last couple of years for Prince. Personally, I saw enough positive signs out of Prince last year that I think he deserves 6 years to build, and more if things go really well.

What do you think though?
Solich was fired with 10 wins. Remember that Osborne took forever to win championship but consistently won 9 ball games a year. But once again Osborne was in a different era, where you had time to build a program.

May 23, 2007, 09:45:42 PM
Reply #18

waks

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I'd be happy with 8, ok with seven, and disappointed with six (less disappointed if we went bowling).

May 23, 2007, 09:51:25 PM
Reply #19

WildCatzPhreak

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7 is par.  6 is meh, but acceptable.  8 is good times.  anything less than 6 is "pack your crap" and anything more than 8 is "wow prince is amazing."

fine line, but that's just how our schedule is this year.  we SHOULD win 5 games regardless, we SHOULD lose 2 games regardless, and then there's like 5 tossup games.  not all of them are true tossups, some we'll be favored and some we won't, but most will probably have an 8 point spread or less.

May 23, 2007, 10:10:30 PM
Reply #20

Pete

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5-3 would be fantastic. (it's kind of possible as well, ku,MU,CU,BU at home and isu on road)

You will later regret this statement.  :-[

May 23, 2007, 10:26:33 PM
Reply #21

Bullfn33

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5-3 would be fantastic. (it's kind of possible as well, ku,MU,CU,BU at home and isu on road)

You will later regret this statement.  :-[

If we can beat MU at home, there is no reason why we can't beat the others.  The problem is we will probably have a bad game in there somewhere like the ku/BU/MU games last year and end up going 4-1.
Show me defense.

May 23, 2007, 10:28:43 PM
Reply #22

waks

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Games we will lose:

Auburn
Texas
Nebraska

Games we should lose but could win:

Oklahoma State
Missouri

Games we should win but could lose:

Kansas
Fresno State

Games that we will win:

Baylor
Iowa State
Colorado
San Jose State
Missouri State

May 23, 2007, 10:33:05 PM
Reply #23

Bullfn33

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Games we will lose:

Auburn
Texas
Nebraska

Games we should lose but could win:

Oklahoma State
Missouri

Games we should win but could lose:

Kansas
Fresno State

Games that we will win:

Baylor
Iowa State
Colorado
San Jose State
Missouri State

Missouri hasn't beaten us in Manhattan since 1989.  We have them in Manhattan on SR day.  We won't lose in 2007.  And their defense sucks. 
Show me defense.

May 23, 2007, 10:36:47 PM
Reply #24

waks

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I still think they will be favored over us. I would predict us to win it. I'm saying that is what the media/Vegas will think IMO.

May 23, 2007, 10:40:09 PM
Reply #25

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I want to see a more consistent football team this year.  Last year's team had some really great moments and some really bad moments.  This team needs to take a step forward and avoid the performances where either the offense or the defense (or both) were essentually no shows.  In tangible #s here are some things I want to see:

(At least) 4 league wins, 5 home wins, 2 road wins, for 7 overall wins.  Its imperative to establish winning at home again (with a very favorable schedule) and show we can win on the road, even if those wins are ISU and Fresno.  

I'd also like to see a team that at least finishes toward the middle of the league in run defense and run offense while continuing to maintain solid special teams.  I think with the running game will come a better passing game.  Probably need to start off somewhat cautious, similar to the OSU, CU, ISU games, and give Freeman a chance to get his feet back under him and get some confidence.  Let Johnson, Patton, Nelson, and Norwood/Mastrud (and hopefully someone else at WR) make some plays and take some pressure off.  

Bottom line though, not maintaining a 7 win season and .500 record in the league would be a step backward.  With a favorable home schedule, this should be very attainable.

May 23, 2007, 10:49:54 PM
Reply #26

ChicoRodriguez

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Texas is still our bitch.  Chalk it up in the "Definite Win" category.

Honestly, to me 7-5 is a disappointment.  Minimum 8-4, I would be happy with 9-3, and think 10-2 or greater should be a possibility.  The Auburn game is going to tell a lot.  I'm not necessarily asking for a win but I want to see a really good showing. The reason my expectations are higher is that I really like Prince and think he has what it takes to get it done, even with subpar talent (which I don't know if we necessarily have that this year).  It all depends on how the lines perform.  If the o-line and d-line can get it done, or at minimum the o-line, I think we'll be sitting pretty good. 

May 23, 2007, 10:52:09 PM
Reply #27

S. Parker

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Lately in college football it seems like everyone wants an instant miracle, and teams keep rifling through coaches until they find a guy that can win a lot instantly. However, for every Florida and Oklahoma that this works for, there is a school like Notre Dame that is held down by it. Furthermore, guys like Urban Meyer and Bob Stoops had a ton of talent already in place when they set foot on campus.

In short, I think building a program is a forgotten skill.

This brings me to my question. What are your expectations for Prince? How do you honestly see things unfolding, what will you be satisfied with the next few years, and what would he have to do to get on the hot seat?

Snyder was one of the all-time greats, but let's face it, he didn't leave the program in that great of shape the last couple of years for Prince. Personally, I saw enough positive signs out of Prince last year that I think he deserves 6 years to build, and more if things go really well.

What do you think though?
Solich was fired with 10 wins. Remember that Osborne took forever to win championship but consistently won 9 ball games a year. But once again Osborne was in a different era, where you had time to build a program.

In all honesty, I never wanted Solich to head coach in the first place. I liked him, but I didn't think he offered anything as a head coach (he was a running backs coach), and I thought Osborne's recruiting abilities had already stretched the option offense long past it's natural death (top recruits wanted to play for him still because he was famous, so the option kept working). Once Solich was head coach I supported him but with serious reservations. Once he made the changes in assistant coaches in 2002, I was willing to give him 3 more years for the same reason I started this thread with...I wanted to give him a chance to build his program, and I knew it would be a mess if we switched coaches. Pederson wasn't as patient as I was though, so now we have Callahan. I've been excited about Callahan from day one, and I really started liking him last season.

A lot of people talk about Solich's ten wins in his last season, but they were mirage. We won all our out-of-conference games, but we only played two crappy Sunbelt teams and a Penn State team that went 3-9. We got slaughtered by every good team we played. Why? Because Solich didn't know how to run the offense (he was still trying to do it despite saying the OC was in charge), and we had division II talent at almost every position on offense, and many on defense. :flush:

I like Solich okay, but he couldn't/didn't recruit. His first four years we outwardly were great because Tom Osborne's players were still there. However, there was hemorrhaging in talent that was taking place silently, so that by the time Osborne's last class were seniors (2001) we had no depth, which Colorado and Miami exposed.   :nutkick:

Like I said, I never was excited about Solich, but I always supported him with reservations. I was willing to give him more time. However, he's gone, and I am really excited about Callahan now. I want to give Callahan time to build--like I was willing to do with Solich--but with Callahan I have no reservations.


May 23, 2007, 11:05:49 PM
Reply #28

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I say screw expectations.  It's all up in the air this year.  I think a losing season next year will be a red flag, but this year there are so many ?'s and a nasty ass schedule.


I still want my cooler, bitches!

May 23, 2007, 11:27:21 PM
Reply #29

WildCatzPhreak

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Texas is still our bitch.  Chalk it up in the "Definite Win" category.

Honestly, to me 7-5 is a disappointment.  Minimum 8-4, I would be happy with 9-3, and think 10-2 or greater should be a possibility.  The Auburn game is going to tell a lot.  I'm not necessarily asking for a win but I want to see a really good showing. The reason my expectations are higher is that I really like Prince and think he has what it takes to get it done, even with subpar talent (which I don't know if we necessarily have that this year).  It all depends on how the lines perform.  If the o-line and d-line can get it done, or at minimum the o-line, I think we'll be sitting pretty good. 
Chico has reminded me of our dominance over the longhorns.  I change mine to 8-4.