Who are Martin and Hill tied to for next year?

[WilliamTheWildcat]

No.

Clearly the best choice would have been to hire another coach who couldn't pull in good recruits in the future and then completely wipe out any and all chance of keeping next year's class. 

There was no good choice, maybe soon you'll realize just how hard Huggins screwed us.

Yup.  I'm not completely thrilled by all these events.  I think we fans are forced to look at the short term and let the future play out as it will.  Kind of sucks.  Have to hope these guys don't sink.  But my gut tells me this will be a difficult 3 years.

[SupremeWildcat]

This was our best shot.  Martin may turn out to be a brilliant recruiter and a brilliant coach.  Everyone had to start somewhere.  He obviously appeals to many of the players.
Any other choices this year would have just completely wiped out the class and we would be starting over.
Why not enjoy this year and see if we can build off of it?

[ksuno1stunner]

Hopefully we have a decent season next year, so we can sell the school to recruits.  We really need to get two of Shipman/Swopshire/Kadji next year and Boyd in 2009, to keep moving forward.

[michigancat]

No.

Well, your premise that our recruiting was entirely Huggins was just false.  And we knew that all along.  I don't really think you have any way of predicting what our recruiting will be like.

Heck, Wooldridge got four star players.  Do you honestly think our recruiting will be worse than Wooldridge's?

Hopefully we have a decent season next year, so we can sell the school to recruits.  We really need to get two of Shipman/Swopshire/Kadji next year and Boyd in 2009, to keep moving forward.

Next season absolutely makes or breaks Martin's tenure. 

Well, it could break it at least.

[WildWillie21]

Becasue of somewhat lowered recruiting expectations I'd be equally pleased with a '08 class that consists of 3 out of these four as I am with this years class: Ray Ship, Swopshire, Kadji, and Manzano. + a Juco or two depending how many jump early.  If they can land a X Gibson or a Yancy G I'd be ecstatic.

[pissclams]

I'm just talking about the reality of the situation, not speaking in the hypothetical.  There was no good choice for us, no matter what we did we're screwed.  Weiser decided on what he thought was the best option of the sh|t in front of him and rolled the dice.  You can take those recruiting lists and throw them out the window b/c they're history. 

And FWIW, those 3* and 4* kids are taking more of a chance playing for unproven coaches and not following Huggs than someone like Walker or Beasley who could be in the league after having Rusty as their coach.  It's the 3* 4* kids who rely on someone like Huggs to get them into the league, ref: Yae even getting a look.

IMO I'd have preferred someone with more experience, more recruiting connections, like the Anthony Grant guy at VCU, risk losing part of KSUGRCOAT yet still retaining pieces of it, and at least securing our program's existence beyond 2007-2008.

That dude has 12 f'n years below Donovan as his top AC doing the recruiting, and I'm confident he would have been able to keep pieces of KSUGRCOAT, and pull some 3/4* into KSU in the out years post-Beas/Walker.

Meh.

[pissclams]

Well, your premise that our recruiting was entirely Huggins was just false.  And we knew that all along.  I don't really think you have any way of predicting what our recruiting will be like.

My premise was that these kids weren't coming to KSU to come to KSU, they weren't coming to be coached by the venerable Frank Martin.  They weren't coming to ride their bikes at Tuttle, they were coming because of and for, Bob Huggins.  Bob puts kids in the league.

Heck, Wooldridge got four star players.  Do you honestly think our recruiting will be worse than Wooldridge's?

Huggs wasn't the only coach to sign a #1 recruiting class at KSU.

[catzacker]

I'm just talking about the reality of the situation, not speaking in the hypothetical.  There was no good choice for us, no matter what we did we're screwed.  Weiser decided on what he thought was the best option of the sh|t in front of him and rolled the dice.  You can take those recruiting lists and throw them out the window b/c they're history. 

And FWIW, those 3* and 4* kids are taking more of a chance playing for unproven coaches and not following Huggs than someone like Walker or Beasley who could be in the league after having Rusty as their coach.  It's the 3* 4* kids who rely on someone like Huggs to get them into the league, ref: Yae even getting a look.

IMO I'd have preferred someone with more experience, more recruiting connections, like the Anthony Grant guy at VCU, risk losing part of KSUGRCOAT yet still retaining pieces of it, and at least securing our program's existence beyond 2007-2008.
That dude has 12 f'n years below Donovan as his top AC doing the recruiting, and I'm confident he would have been able to keep pieces of KSUGRCOAT, and pull some 3/4* into KSU in the out years post-Beas/Walker.

Meh.

 

(1) we just would be doing what we just got done complaining about (a coach leaving after one year).
(2) how is he more connected than Martin (following the "he can't recruit when he isn't recruiting for [insert name of good coach here])
(3) Has he ever recruited to KSU in Manhattan, KS?
(4) How more likely is he to keep the class together than Martin/Hill?

In 4 years, there will be guys like Grant available when Frank Martin is fired.  

I don't think anyone is saying that losing Huggins was a good thing, but forgive me if I haven't rang the death knell for the program under Frank Martin one day after his hire.  Is he risky?  Yep, no one's disputing that.  Will recruiting drop off?  Probably, but that's relative to (a) unrealistic expectations about Huggins' recruiting and (b) expectations relative to where the program is actually at, realistically.

[michigancat]

I'm just talking about the reality of the situation, not speaking in the hypothetical.  There was no good choice for us, no matter what we did we're screwed.  Weiser decided on what he thought was the best option of the sh|t in front of him and rolled the dice.  You can take those recruiting lists and throw them out the window b/c they're history. 

No, they aren't completely history.

IMO I'd have preferred someone with more experience, more recruiting connections, like the Anthony Grant guy at VCU, risk losing part of KSUGRCOAT yet still retaining pieces of it, and at least securing our program's existence beyond 2007-2008.

You don't lose "part" of GRCOAT...it's all or nothing.  If Beasley jumps, Sutton jumps...and Pullen jumps...OK, maybe Fred Brown stays.

The Anthony Grants of the world will always be available to KSU.  Michael Beasley's and Bill Walker's won't.

My premise was that these kids weren't coming to KSU to come to KSU, they weren't coming to be coached by the venerable Frank Martin.  They weren't coming to ride their bikes at Tuttle, they were coming because of and for, Bob Huggins.  Bob puts kids in the league.

OK, why haven't any of them asked to leave?

[michigancat]

Another thought:  If Weiser somehow manages to ride the momentum of this next year into a new practice facility, it's totally worth it.  I don't think Anthony Grant would be able to keep the interest of season ticket holders and donors enough to secure a practice facility w/o GRCOAT.

[chum1]

My premise was that these kids weren't coming to KSU to come to KSU, they weren't coming to be coached by the venerable Frank Martin.  They weren't coming to ride their bikes at Tuttle, they were coming because of and for, Bob Huggins.  Bob puts kids in the league.

OK, why haven't any of them asked to leave?

This one is easy.  Most didn't come because of KSU or Huggins, but because of Hill.

[JavaCat]

It's the 3* 4* kids who rely on someone like Huggs to get them into the league, ref: Yae even getting a look.

What? Was Cartier not being talked about before this year? You really think Huggins is the reason Cartier is getting a look? Heck, if you went by stats Cartier was better in every single category under Wooldridge than he was under Huggins. What do you believe Huggins did to improve Cartier's game and get him a look? I'd say Cartier's stock has fallen somewhat.

[pissclams]

Another thought:  If Weiser somehow manages to ride the momentum of this next year into a new practice facility, it's totally worth it.  I don't think Anthony Grant would be able to keep the interest of season ticket holders and donors enough to secure a practice facility w/o GRCOAT.

One year of Huggy and I think you've over-estimated what it takes to make K-State basketball fans happy/interested.

[pissclams]

It's the 3* 4* kids who rely on someone like Huggs to get them into the league, ref: Yae even getting a look.

What? Was Cartier not being talked about before this year? You really think Huggins is the reason Cartier is getting a look? Heck, if you went by stats Cartier was better in every single category under Wooldridge than he was under Huggins. What do you believe Huggins did to improve Cartier's game and get him a look? I'd say Cartier's stock has fallen somewhat.

You're right.  Yae was a lock for the league pre Huggins and having the connections that Huggs does only hurt his chances.*
Ignore the section of Kstatesports.com emphasizing the players Huggins got into the NBA.


*not that they were realistic anyways.

[michigancat]

Another thought:  If Weiser somehow manages to ride the momentum of this next year into a new practice facility, it's totally worth it.  I don't think Anthony Grant would be able to keep the interest of season ticket holders and donors enough to secure a practice facility w/o GRCOAT.

One year of Huggy and I think you've over-estimated what it takes to make K-State basketball fans happy/interested.

Wins?

It's the 3* 4* kids who rely on someone like Huggs to get them into the league, ref: Yae even getting a look.

What? Was Cartier not being talked about before this year? You really think Huggins is the reason Cartier is getting a look? Heck, if you went by stats Cartier was better in every single category under Wooldridge than he was under Huggins. What do you believe Huggins did to improve Cartier's game and get him a look? I'd say Cartier's stock has fallen somewhat.

You're right.  Yae was a lock for the league pre Huggins and having the connections that Huggs does only hurt his chances.*
Ignore the section of Kstatesports.com emphasizing the players Huggins got into the NBA.


*not that they were realistic anyways.

I agree that Huggins' history of player development is a great asset, but Cartier is kind of a bad example.  He would have gone to Portsmouth under Wooly,  just like he did under Huggins.

[pissclams]

(1) we just would be doing what we just got done complaining about (a coach leaving after one year).
(2) how is he more connected than Martin (following the "he can't recruit when he isn't recruiting for [insert name of good coach here])
(3) Has he ever recruited to KSU in Manhattan, KS?
(4) How more likely is he to keep the class together than Martin/Hill?

In 4 years, there will be guys like Grant available when Frank Martin is fired. 

I don't think anyone is saying that losing Huggins was a good thing, but forgive me if I haven't rang the death knell for the program under Frank Martin one day after his hire.  Is he risky?  Yep, no one's disputing that.  Will recruiting drop off?  Probably, but that's relative to (a) unrealistic expectations about Huggins' recruiting and (b) expectations relative to where the program is actually at, realistically.

1) inferring that taking Grant from VCU is a bad thing since he's only been there a year? ok, shucks?
2) 12 years as the top assistant managing recruiting under Donovan > 4 years w/ Huggins and 3 at Northeastern.
3) my guess is that he's never recruited to KSU in Manhattan KS.  I cannot confirm that.
4) my guess is he could have kept Walker and some of KSUGRCOAT.

[michigancat]

4) my guess is he could have kept Walker and some of KSUGRCOAT.

Fred Brown!  Woo-hoo!

[pissclams]

Another thought:  If Weiser somehow manages to ride the momentum of this next year into a new practice facility, it's totally worth it.  I don't think Anthony Grant would be able to keep the interest of season ticket holders and donors enough to secure a practice facility w/o GRCOAT.

One year of Huggy and I think you've over-estimated what it takes to make K-State basketball fans happy/interested.

Wins?

You said Anthony Grant would not be able to keep the interest of season ticket holders and donors enough to secure a practice facility. Despite taking VCU, VCU to the NCAA's and beating Duke in the first round, Huggin's 2nd round NIT appearance somehow keeps us more interested?
Despite Grant building the nation's best basketball program from the ground up at a 100% football school, he wouldn't be able to keep us interested.

If that's true we have no one to blame but ourselves. 

4) my guess is he could have kept Walker and some of KSUGRCOAT.

Fred Brown!  Woo-hoo!

Welcome back to K-State basketball! 

[ksu_FAN]

I think we've got to consider the power of relationship and what kids think of Hill.  Heck, Hill had to explain to Beasley and Sutton why Martin should be the head coach rather than him.  If we get all those guys in and win plenty of games, those guys won't have an extremely difficult time recruiting.  Plus, keep in mind by keeping Underwood on the staff we have some connections to FL JUCOs, so if we are struggling to pull in HS kids next year we can always go that direction.  No question though, these guys will have to parlay the success in recruiting to success on the floor to maintain this type of recruiting.  And we may have to live a year with Sutton, Pullen, Brown, and Colon leading the charge with some JUCO guys while Martin and Hill establish themselves to get more high profile guys, even if it is just one or two every few years.  But no doubt the reputation they have and credibility with kids isn't going to go away overnight.  Those connections will still be there, we just will need some success to build on.  Again, some kids are going to be a little shortsighted and if Beasley and Walker go league after next season, that will do some recruiting for us.  Most kids out there aren't going to know much history beyond a couple years, we just need to put ourselves on the map a bit next season.

[michigancat]

You said Anthony Grant would not be able to keep the interest of season ticket holders and donors enough to secure a practice facility. Despite taking VCU, VCU to the NCAA's and beating Duke in the first round, Huggin's 2nd round NIT appearance somehow keeps us more interested?

Grant - GRCOAT + 8th place finish <<<<<<< Martin + GRCOAT + Top 4 finish

In terms of interest.

[ksu_FAN]

You said Anthony Grant would not be able to keep the interest of season ticket holders and donors enough to secure a practice facility. Despite taking VCU, VCU to the NCAA's and beating Duke in the first round, Huggin's 2nd round NIT appearance somehow keeps us more interested?

Grant - GRCOAT + 8th place finish + sending no one to the league<<<<<<< Martin + GRCOAT + Top 4 finish + sending possibily 2 players to the league

In terms of interest.

Here Rusty, addendum to your post.

[pissclams]

I don't agree with the "- GRCOAT" but he'd be worse than 8th if he were to lose the entire class, no coach could salvage that.  But that's just one year. 
And you're assuming Walker would leave, I don't think he was ever going to leave.  He's got to play next year.

Walker should go league after next season assuming he heals as expected.


You mentioned KSU fan's having unrealistic recruiting expectations in one post then slam Fred Brown in the next.  Which is it?

Someone answer Hox's original question, I'm dying to know the answer.

[fatty fat fat]

Someone answer Hox's original question, I'm dying to know the answer.

They've been on the job for 2 days. No one knows.

[ksu_FAN]

Rusty mentioned a few.

I am serious.  Who are you guys on for future classes?  I honestly don't know.  I recall someone saying before the Huggy thing came up that your top prospect was predicted to be a 4 star and that the others were 3 stars at best.  Was that wrong?

Kadji, Shipman, Witherspoon, Swopshire, and Woods are all 4 stars.  There were other 4 stars, and a couple 5 stars KSU was in on, but I only included the ones with clear connections to Hill or Martin.

[pissclams]

"Was" being the key word.  Hell, Beasley's got the clearest of clear connections to Hill and they don't even make him a lock, what do you expect??

[michigancat]

I don't agree with the "- GRCOAT"

Why?  They all seem dead set on playing together?  They all pretty much said, "No Hill....I'm gone".

And you're assuming Walker would leave, I don't think he was ever going to leave.  He's got to play next year.

No, he doesn't have to.  If he didn't want to play for a coach, he would be smart enough to recognize the value of leaving.

You mentioned KSU fan's having unrealistic recruiting expectations in one post then slam Fred Brown in the next.  Which is it?

Those aren't contradictory.  Fred Brown, by himself, is not a good class "centerpiece".  My reference to unrealistic expectations is people expecting the Beasley's and Walker's year in and year out under Huggins.

Someone answer Hox's original question, I'm dying to know the answer.

FAN and fatty handled this one.

[sys]

piss, you are overestimating the huggins factor in recruiting.  players follow asst. coaches. for god knows what reason,  asst. coaches follow successful coaches because they the get head coaching jobs.  as the beasley/sutton comments show, many recruits would prefer to play for their favorite asst. coach than a coaching legend.

shipman is a pretty good bet to still have a strong interest in ksu.  there was something in one of his articles about his dad being friends with f. martin.

[michigancat]

shipman is a pretty good bet to still have a strong interest in ksu.  there was something in one of his articles about his dad being friends with f. martin.

Stunner, I'm here to please.

Just spoke with Shipman. He says he speaks with Frank Martin all of the time. He hasn't been offered, but he believes it's just a matter of time. Right now, he's been offered by G'Tech, Miami and Clemson. He likes K-State's style of play and he is being led to believe he could make an early impact in Manhattan. His dad, also named Ray, apparently knows Frank Martin well from when Martin was a high school coach in the area. That connection, he said, would make K-State a favorable spot. Even without an offer, he says K-State is "easily" in his Top 5.

My work here is done. For now...

[pissclams]

I don't agree with the "- GRCOAT"

Why?  They all seem dead set on playing together?  They all pretty much said, "No Hill....I'm gone".

There's options.  Keep Hill, ditch Martin? Grant negotiates with Hill to stay?  Don't let them out of their LOI's?
Not suggesting one over the other, simply saying there were options at a time when our AD acted like there were none.

No, he doesn't have to.  If he didn't want to play for a coach, he would be smart enough to recognize the value of leaving.

He certainly does have to, if he's got half a brain.  The last thing Walker wants to do is leave KSU now, sit out all of next year, only to gain eligibility to play 2 years from now somewhere new.  The best thing for Bill is to stick it out, keep eligible, play next year and bolt to the league. 

Those aren't contradictory.  Fred Brown, by himself, is not a good class "centerpiece".  My reference to unrealistic expectations is people expecting the Beasley's and Walker's year in and year out under Huggins.

Agreed.  We're going to see a hell of a lot more Browns than Walker's or Beasley's.  Actually, it's a safe bet we won't see any more Walker's or Beasley's.

FAN and fatty handled this one.

Disagree. We won't really know what the real lists look like for a while.

[pissclams]

piss, you are overestimating the huggins factor in recruiting.  players follow asst. coaches. for god knows what reason,  asst. coaches follow successful coaches because they the get head coaching jobs.  as the beasley/sutton comments show, many recruits would prefer to play for their favorite asst. coach than a coaching legend.

shipman is a pretty good bet to still have a strong interest in ksu.  there was something in one of his articles about his dad being friends with f. martin.

I hope you're right, however, the Shipman example is a unique one.  If Shipman's pops is a friend of Martin's, well, great, but that's not going to happen often.
I'd lay odds that more kids recognize Bob Huggins when he walks into the gym than do Hill or Martin.