The "Freeman shouldn't play because the line sucks" argument.

[michigancat]

Are you people serious?

[pissclams]

Are you people serious?

No.  Freeman shouldn't play because Carson Coffman could run circles around him.  CC4H2007.

[Joker]

Whoever gives us the best chance to win should play....I think pretty much everyone agrees on that.

[Racquetball_Ninja]

I don't know that I agree with the logic but I understand it.  I know this, if Freeman isn't going to play then they damn well better slap that redshirt on him. 

[Joker]

I can't imagine Freeman not playing at all this season. I'm sure he probably would have seen some mop up duty last weekend if there was any available. But then again, I really don't see there being much mop up duty in any game we play this season. So unless Dylan gets hurt, then yeah I take my statement back, I can imagine Josh not playing at all this season.

[plaincat]

Watts shouldn't play because our line sucks.

[Kat Kid]

Carson Palmer vs. David Carr, Rusty.  Continue.

[Dan Rydell]

Right now, Prince is running the "CYA" offense.

Like Kietz just said...let Meier suck for a week or two, then when you bring in Freeman, it's okay if he sucks.

Wouldn't work as well the other way around.

[michigancat]

Carson Palmer vs. David Carr, Rusty.  Continue.

Would Carr have been as good as Palmer if he just sat out a year?

[Kat Kid]

Carson Palmer vs. David Carr, Rusty.  Continue.

Would Carr have been as good as Palmer if he just sat out a year?

Palmer might literally be David Carr if he got pelted as much as Carr has.  This is the same reason you don't bring up pitchers too early.  Except instead of pitchers throwing up home runs, they are getting physically punished with sacks/open field hits on scambles.

I am not completely opposed to Josh Freeman playing, I just think we should weigh things in a reasonable logical way.

If we are definitely NOT going to a bowl game this year then is it a good thing or a bad thing to bring in Freeman?  Should we keep him for four years with extra reps/understanding going into his first game?

If we have a shot at going to a bowl game should we play him to make that happen?  Should we give him reps to help him develop?

What is the future vs. present mean to this program in terms of wins/potential, injury/experience etc.

I am not saying anyone is crazy for wanting to see Freeman, I think saying Freeman is a savior or creating unreasonable expectations for him and then having him come in and suck will be really bad for him.  Look at Ell's development and tell me if you think Snyder was right about his Spring Game run setting him back.

It should be a complex decision with alot of thought,  I just kind of rambled here, but thats the essence of what I think.

[Dan Rydell]

I think Kat Kid's onto something here.  Look at Favre and Trent Green.  Same age, but Green plays a lot younger these days, which a lot of people credit to him being injured so much early on in his career and thus not exposed to the hits that Favre's taken.  So if you don't let your young QB get the crap beat out of him as he's getting familiar with the team/offense, then maybe he gives you more productivity down the road.

[michigancat]

Palmer might literally be David Carr if he got pelted as much as Carr has.  This is the same reason you don't bring up pitchers too early.  Except instead of pitchers throwing up home runs, they are getting physically punished with sacks/open field hits on scambles.

Is Carr's "confidence shot", or is he still just running for his life?  Houston gave up 68(!) sacks last season.   I don't think "easing" David Carr into an offense that gives up 68 sacks would have done him a bit of good.  You can't expect any QB to be successful in David Carr's situation.

Also, we don't have the luxury of a redshirt year with Freeman.  If we had a third QB on the roster, I wouldn't be as concerned with getting Golden Boy playing time early.

I am not completely opposed to Josh Freeman playing, I just think we should weigh things in a reasonable logical way.

Here is my logic:

Dylan won't be able to take every snap this season, therefore Freeman will have to play.  If you know Freeman will have to play, why not get him experience against the easiest opponents, rather than taking the chance of throwing him to the wolves when it's out of your control?  If he struggles in games 1 and 2, you have a "veteran" waiting in the wings and GB's "confidence" is spared.

If we are definitely NOT going to a bowl game this year then is it a good thing or a bad thing to bring in Freeman?  Should we keep him for four years with extra reps/understanding going into his first game?

If we have a shot at going to a bowl game should we play him to make that happen?  Should we give him reps to help him develop?

See, I don't think we'll go to a bowl game with Dylan Meier starting every game.  I think we might have a slim chance with Freeman. 

I am not saying anyone is crazy for wanting to see Freeman, I think saying Freeman is a savior or creating unreasonable expectations for him and then having him come in and suck will be really bad for him.  Look at Ell's development and tell me if you think Snyder was right about his Spring Game run setting him back.

I don't think Freeman is a savior either, and I don't expect great things from him this year.  As for Ell, I don't think you could consider his career anything but a smashing success.  I wouldn't change one thing about his career, other than giving him a capable backup his senior year.

[Kat Kid]

I think Carr's confidence is shot, but also his body.  If we want the greatest chance at success for the future then why do we have to put freeman out for one snap?  Let Dylan be the martyr and take all the shots, if we all agree that we aren't making a bowl game.  Maybe give Freeman junk time.  But why risk anything going wrong with him physically/mentally when the season was lost before it began?  What are we trying to prove?  If Dylan is an absolute abortion (I mean literally taking sickening shots, fumbling, not moving ball at all, throwing pick sixes; worse than he is now) then we bring in Freeman.  Any significant playing time besides that is not worth the risk IMHO.

Ell's career was a smashing success for two and a half years.  How old is Freeman again?  I really think he won't be much better than Dylan, and even if he is a little better I think it is not worth it to let him start games.

[Kat Kid]

I guess I wouldn't play him alot/start him unless we find that he is significantly better than Dylan.  Otherwise I think it isn't worth it ie. injuries/loss of confidence etc.

[michigancat]

I think Carr's confidence is shot, but also his body.  If we want the greatest chance at success for the future then why do we have to put freeman out for one snap?  Let Dylan be the martyr and take all the shots, if we all agree that we aren't making a bowl game.  Maybe give Freeman junk time.  But why risk anything going wrong with him physically/mentally when the season was lost before it began? 

I would agree with this argument if we had a third quarterback.  If it's a foregone conclusion that Dylan is going to get beat up physically and mentally, Freeman is likely to play anyway.  I think Freeman is less likely to get beat up physically and mentally against creampuffs, plus you get to evaluate him and get him some valuable experience.  If Freeman is a flop the first two games, start Meier.  You now have a backup quarterback that has taken snaps and hits at the division I level.

What are we trying to prove?  If Dylan is an absolute abortion (I mean literally taking sickening shots, fumbling, not moving ball at all, throwing pick sixes; worse than he is now) then we bring in Freeman.  Any significant playing time besides that is not worth the risk IMHO.

Again, I would agree if we had a backup QB.

Ell's career was a smashing success for two and a half years.  How old is Freeman again?  I really think he won't be much better than Dylan, and even if he is a little better I think it is not worth it to let him start games.

Kougar (incredibly) put it best:  If two players are comparable in ability, play the younger player.

[Kat Kid]

Maybe I am just being so conservative because of Snyder/KSU history with Freshman QBs, last season and my only hope for the future being so wrapped up in Freeman.

He's like a little baby.  I just want to bundle him up real good before he goes out into the cold, cruel world.

[mjrod]

It would only make sense to play Freeman if Dylan either became hurt or started to have problems with the offense.   The notion of playing Freeman for the future is one reason that is still iffy, if all he's doing is running around trying to find a receiver.   Freeman would have worked well in a Snyder offense because if there were problems, he could run.

This argument is much more difficult to assess because of this type of offense.  The QB is to scramble until a receiver opens, and either throw it away or throw it uncatchable to avoid the sack.   That means the QB has a little more time, but the O-Line must do what it can to give him that time.  In Snyder's offense, the QB could make the decision to tuck and run sooner, because he was allowed to watch and see if running lanes opened up.  There were several instances where running lanes were open for Dylan, and had the coaches allowed, he could have scrambled.

This all leads back to understanding what this kind of offense entails.  I agree that we should get Freeman on the field as soon as possible as he is the QB of the future, but I feel as though his talent may be wasted in an offense where the QB run game is frowned upon.

[catinthehat]

"I don't know that I agree with the logic but I understand it.  I know this, if Freeman isn't going to play then they damn well better slap that redshirt on him. "

you need to pay better attention.  freeman is number 2 now, all the other qb's who should have played have bee nrun off like cattle rustlers because our coach is retarded.  The other qb is a one armed wonder who won't be passing till trick or treat time.  it isn't a matter of should he/would he, it's no longer a choice.  Either watch meier piss the entire season away and just chalk it up to prince being a fu*k wad and start with a new kid next year or throw freeman to the freaking wolves like he has been begginf for all laong.  My take is that papa freeman, now seeing how horrible KSU really is, is probaly telling his kid not to play if he can help it and to transfer out as soon as possible

[catinthehat]

"So if you don't let your young QB get the crap beat out of him as he's getting familiar with the team/offense, then maybe he gives you more productivity down the road."

there is no down the road in college football, 3-4 years goes by really fast, you either can win right away and  show the coaches your the man or you take a seat

[Kat Kid]

My take is that papa freeman, now seeing how horrible KSU really is, is probaly telling his kid not to play if he can help it and to transfer out as soon as possible

So then he has two years of eligibility?  You are a retard.

[WILDCAT NATION]

What's going to be interesting is when the inevitable happens to DM...and JF looks like a deer in headlights.

[ds43fan]

start freeman  and patton and we'd get the 8 wins MJrod said we would

[michigancat]

This all leads back to understanding what this kind of offense entails.  I agree that we should get Freeman on the field as soon as possible as he is the QB of the future, but I feel as though his talent may be wasted in an offense where the QB run game is frowned upon.

Should we encourage Freeman to transfer?  If not, we should run an offense that makes us as successful as possible with Golden Boy at the helm.

[mjrod]

This all leads back to understanding what this kind of offense entails.  I agree that we should get Freeman on the field as soon as possible as he is the QB of the future, but I feel as though his talent may be wasted in an offense where the QB run game is frowned upon.

Should we encourage Freeman to transfer?  If not, we should run an offense that makes us as successful as possible with Golden Boy at the helm.

No, we shouldn't encourage him to do so. I agree with you that you create an offense around your players.  Snyder understood that better than anyone.  Hopefully, some of that will rub off on Prince.

[Kat Kid]

This all leads back to understanding what this kind of offense entails.  I agree that we should get Freeman on the field as soon as possible as he is the QB of the future, but I feel as though his talent may be wasted in an offense where the QB run game is frowned upon.

Should we encourage Freeman to transfer?  If not, we should run an offense that makes us as successful as possible with Golden Boy at the helm.

No, we shouldn't encourage him to do so. I agree with you that you create an offense around your players.  Snyder understood that better than anyone.  Hopefully, some of that will rub off on Prince.

You mean Mr. Jeff Schwinn/Marc Dunn should run the option man?

wtf?

[chum1]

We're going to fit the players to the system.

-Bill "Family Stadium" Snyder