National Review

[Kat Kid]

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=YTQ1YWE1OTVkNTEyMGIwOGIwMmViYWEzYTFhYTIxZGU=

Bush critics too often groan about alleged “torture” at Guantanamo and other American facilities where enemy combatants are locked away. It might help them to learn who these terror suspects are, how they look, what they have done, and how persuading one terrorist to talk often helps U.S. personnel catch other bomb-mongers before they blow innocent civilians into body parts.

Making detainees’ tongues wag — through quiet persuasion, sleepless nights, waterboarding, or non-stop Britney Spears tunes — is literally a matter of life and death.

What a FP.  I literally lie awake at night afraid to fall asleep lest the terrorists unleash their devious plots on Manhattan, KS.  The United States is not threatened by these thugs.  We are more threatened by alcoholism, cancer, American on American crime and driving to work.  The idea that we should create a lawless unitary executive with oversight by no other branch of government, bound to no treaty and no law to stop what has so far taken the lives of less than 5,000 Americans is madness.  The conservative journal of note is now on record as not only excusing or denying that torture exists but celebrates it.  The clever use of "torture" is an Orwellian tactic that should scare the bejeezus out of you.  We've already seen "torture" become "enhanced interrogation techniques" or Guliani's favorite: "intensive interrogations" (which he claims to have used to break up New York's Cosa Nostra) but to openly embrace what is by definition torture and then to snarkily declare it "torture" is an assault upon the English language.  The dismissal of any questioning of these techniques through "Club Gitmo" or "nice chicken entree" or "in league with the terrorists" or any other right-wing pro-torture meme is of course illegitimate, but count on it continuing.  Only by confusing the issue will they allow it to gain traction, the Democrat's silence and consistent deference to Mukasey will only end in a further erosion of Congressional oversight as a Constitutional power.

Remember, the Union is not under attack.  There is no existential struggle.  The people that wish to turn the world into a caliphate under Shari'a law have less power to do so than Ralph Nader.  There is little doubt that more people will die at the hands of suicidal terrorists, but to disassemble the Republic on their behalf in the name of security is what a FP would do.  Americans don't live in fear and don't let fear govern their republic.  At least that was how it used to be.

LIVE FREE OR DIE. 

[michigancat]

I agree.  A government that tortures people scares me more than "terrorists".

While Zubaydah reportedly kept his mouth shut at first, he became much more loquacious once interrogators stuck him in a cold room and cranked up the music of the Red Hot Chili Peppers. Evidently not a fan, Zubaydah sang anyway, although a different song altogether. Zubaydah identified Omar al-Faruq, Rahim al-Nashiri, and Ramzi bin al-Shibh, as well as other terrorists.

[Kat Kid]

I agree.  A government that tortures people scares me more than "terrorists".

While Zubaydah reportedly kept his mouth shut at first, he became much more loquacious once interrogators stuck him in a cold room and cranked up the music of the Red Hot Chili Peppers. Evidently not a fan, Zubaydah sang anyway, although a different song altogether. Zubaydah identified Omar al-Faruq, Rahim al-Nashiri, and Ramzi bin al-Shibh, as well as other terrorists.

The listing of Jose Padilla on the list as a "success" when he hasn't even been prosecuted based on the original crime of which he was accused and provided the basis for his detention for years is laughable.  Also notice how the cold room is quickly laughed off with the Red Hot Chilli Peppers.  Cold rooms are torture.  We aren't talking about 40 degrees with no sweater:

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2007/05/verschfte_verne.html

Nazis were tried as war criminals in 1945 for the same methods under the same rationale (irregular forces not subject to Geneva Convention statutes).  Process that.

[pissclams]

[sys]

that quasi libertarian rep. candidate is starting to sound good.  i think i'll vote for him if he is still in the election when ks gets to vote.

[ArchE_Cat]

There is massive difference in recognizing the real threat that is terrorism and being fearful of terrorism. We must eliminate the threat of terrorism without trying to scare the crap out of everyone. Any military action in dealing with terrorism needs to be swift and absolute. We also need to deal with the number of illegal immigrants we have in this country because of hole is opens for terrorists. Our war on terror is not (nor should it be in the future) in need of mass military action. To be efficient in dealing with terrorists we must do three things well: 1) Intelligence gathering 2) Covert special forces operations when needed to eliminate threats and 3) Stop illegal immigration.

One side completely wants to disregard terror as a fairy-tale and th other side wants you to think we are all going to die soon. The truth is somewhere in the middle. If our elected officials would ever grow up, they would deal w/ terrorism and the media would not have anything to talk about. Terror is a threat, but it is an isolated one, that needs specific action. WE do not need torture to stop terrorists. Our special forces are more than capable of acting on intelligence to eliminate the resources of terrorists in ways that result only in the loss of life of terrorists, and that do not produce headlines. Seriously, if a terror suspect refuses to give information, eliminate all his financial and material resources that we know of. He'll leave a trail trying to  get back on track after we release him, essentially convicting himself while compromising other terrorists.

[sys]

i'm a freedom hating fp.

the cliffnotes version.

[shaft3500]

3) Stop illegal immigration.

illegal immigration is a by-product of a broken system. how many people a year legally immirate to this country? this is a broken system that requires months of cutting through red tape. what ever happened to showing up on a boat, waiting in line a day on ellis island, then getting your papers? they were processing people so quickly that they didn't get last names right half the time.

also, i tend to think that a country that was founded on immigration, then becomes the wealthiest nation on the planet, then makes it darn near impossible to immigrate to the country and share the wealth woud tend to increase terrorism or at least piss a lot more people off which then at the very least encourages terrorism.

illegal immigration is necessary to run our economy, and until we fix the f-ed up bureaucratic system we have, we will always have the need for illegal immigration.

 

[michigancat]

There is massive difference in recognizing the real threat that is terrorism and being fearful of terrorism. We must eliminate the threat of terrorism without trying to scare the crap out of everyone. Any military action in dealing with terrorism needs to be swift and absolute. We also need to deal with the number of illegal immigrants we have in this country because of hole is opens for terrorists. Our war on terror is not (nor should it be in the future) in need of mass military action. To be efficient in dealing with terrorists we must do three things well: 1) Intelligence gathering 2) Covert special forces operations when needed to eliminate threats and 3) Stop illegal immigration.

One side completely wants to disregard terror as a fairy-tale and th other side wants you to think we are all going to die soon. The truth is somewhere in the middle. If our elected officials would ever grow up, they would deal w/ terrorism and the media would not have anything to talk about. Terror is a threat, but it is an isolated one, that needs specific action. WE do not need torture to stop terrorists. Our special forces are more than capable of acting on intelligence to eliminate the resources of terrorists in ways that result only in the loss of life of terrorists, and that do not produce headlines. Seriously, if a terror suspect refuses to give information, eliminate all his financial and material resources that we know of. He'll leave a trail trying to  get back on track after we release him, essentially convicting himself while compromising other terrorists.

Killing all the terrorists and torturing suspected terrorists will just make more people hate us.  Which will lead to more terrorists.

[Dirty Sanchez]

I agree.  A government that tortures people scares me more than "terrorists".

terrorists who happen to support governments that torture (real torture).

[sys]

I agree.  A government that tortures people scares me more than "terrorists".

terrorists who happen to support governments that torture (real torture).

us torture is real torture too.

and whatever it is that random terrorists support is irrelevant.  they have no power.  thus they are called "terrorists" instead of "armies".

[michigancat]

I agree.  A government that tortures people scares me more than "terrorists".

terrorists who happen to support governments that torture (real torture).

I don't live under their governments.  Not scared.

[michigancat]

I also want to say, that I'm glad there's people like Kat Kid in this country.

Not only his a great message board poster, he also watches out for our rights.

[pissclams]

What is KatKid going to do when he sees your rights being violated.  PM?

[michigancat]

Top level post, of course.

[Kat Kid]

I would probably use the shoutbox and the report post functions to alert the proper authorities and send out an APB for the KSUfans.com Militia (non-terrorist) to assemble.

[sys]

I would probably use the shoutbox and the report post functions to alert the proper authorities and send out an APB for the KSUfans.com Militia (non-terrorist) to assemble.

the shoutbox is a great anti-oppression device.

[ArchE_Cat]

i'm a freedom hating fp.

the cliffnotes version.

thank you for your extremely intelligent counter argument...comments like this are what i was referring to when I said our elected officials need to grow up.

Killing all the terrorists and torturing suspected terrorists will just make more people hate us.  Which will lead to more terrorists.

I'm pretty sure I said we don't need to use torture. Also see the part about no "headlines." If we would recognize what is actually a terrorist threat and deal with it they way we should, what is the media going to report that American hating people can use to fuel their fire? We need to stop just assuming that because someone is from the middle east and says they dislike America, that they are a terrorist. We need to actually identify who the real threats are and deal with them. There is no reason to try to make everyone afraid, and continue to fuel and ideology of hate towards America.

illegal immigration is a by-product of a broken system. how many people a year legally immirate to this country? this is a broken system that requires months of cutting through red tape. what ever happened to showing up on a boat, waiting in line a day on ellis island, then getting your papers? they were processing people so quickly that they didn't get last names right half the time.

also, i tend to think that a country that was founded on immigration, then becomes the wealthiest nation on the planet, then makes it darn near impossible to immigrate to the country and share the wealth woud tend to increase terrorism or at least piss a lot more people off which then at the very least encourages terrorism.

illegal immigration is necessary to run our economy, and until we fix the f-ed up bureaucratic system we have, we will always have the need for illegal immigration.

 

It is unfair to the people who want to come here to make a better life and unfair to existing citizens for this system to be broken. To absolutely close off our borders would be un-American. But, we need a clear, fair and efficient system that allows hard working, non-criminals who are now considered "illegal" to become real citizens, or at least allow them to be here legally as a worker. Lots of folks want to assume that all illegals are bad, which is not the case, they are considered illegal because our system is stupid. At the very least we need to start deporting those illegals who we know have criminal records and/or are committing crimes once here. Its not a threat for someone to come here to work for a better life, but there are others who will attempt to take advantage of our broken system, and we need to do right by both of these groups.

[sys]

thank you for your extremely intelligent counter argument...comments like this are what i was referring to when I said our elected officials need to grow up.

i'm not an elected official.


but thanks for clarifying your earlier statement.  it seems you aren't an insane dirty sanchez type.  just a verbose guy with relatively rational thoughts.

[shaft3500]

illegal immigration is a by-product of a broken system. how many people a year legally immirate to this country? this is a broken system that requires months of cutting through red tape. what ever happened to showing up on a boat, waiting in line a day on ellis island, then getting your papers? they were processing people so quickly that they didn't get last names right half the time.

also, i tend to think that a country that was founded on immigration, then becomes the wealthiest nation on the planet, then makes it darn near impossible to immigrate to the country and share the wealth woud tend to increase terrorism or at least piss a lot more people off which then at the very least encourages terrorism.

illegal immigration is necessary to run our economy, and until we fix the f-ed up bureaucratic system we have, we will always have the need for illegal immigration.

 

It is unfair to the people who want to come here to make a better life and unfair to existing citizens for this system to be broken. To absolutely close off our borders would be un-American. But, we need a clear, fair and efficient system that allows hard working, non-criminals who are now considered "illegal" to become real citizens, or at least allow them to be here legally as a worker. Lots of folks want to assume that all illegals are bad, which is not the case, they are considered illegal because our system is stupid. At the very least we need to start deporting those illegals who we know have criminal records and/or are committing crimes once here. Its not a threat for someone to come here to work for a better life, but there are others who will attempt to take advantage of our broken system, and we need to do right by both of these groups.

i pretty much agree, but realize that the first thing you have to do is fix the current f-ed up system before you start concentrate on deporting the thugs. otherwise, you conjer up images of the little dutch boy analogy, which seems to be our current mindset towards the problem. while we are pushing 1 back out, 10 more get in. uphill battles suck.

step 1- fix system, make legal immigration easy
step 2- now that you have a reliable system in place and the only people illegaly immigrating are those you don't want anyways, you can go ahead and crackdown. hunt down the thugs already here now, if you want, while you are at it.
step 3- stiffen penalties to discourage the illegal immigration and pray that the newly fixed system does not break (see poorly legislated) again.

[ArchE_Cat]

i'm not an elected official.


but thanks for clarifying your earlier statement.  it seems you aren't an insane dirty sanchez type.  just a verbose guy with relatively rational thoughts.

it's probably a good thing that neither of us (or anyone else on this board for that matter) are elected officials.

[Dirty Sanchez]

illegal immigration is a by-product of a broken system. how many people a year legally immirate to this country? this is a broken system that requires months of cutting through red tape. what ever happened to showing up on a boat, waiting in line a day on ellis island, then getting your papers? they were processing people so quickly that they didn't get last names right half the time.

also, i tend to think that a country that was founded on immigration, then becomes the wealthiest nation on the planet, then makes it darn near impossible to immigrate to the country and share the wealth woud tend to increase terrorism or at least piss a lot more people off which then at the very least encourages terrorism.

illegal immigration is necessary to run our economy, and until we fix the f-ed up bureaucratic system we have, we will always have the need for illegal immigration.

 

It is unfair to the people who want to come here to make a better life and unfair to existing citizens for this system to be broken. To absolutely close off our borders would be un-American. But, we need a clear, fair and efficient system that allows hard working, non-criminals who are now considered "illegal" to become real citizens, or at least allow them to be here legally as a worker. Lots of folks want to assume that all illegals are bad, which is not the case, they are considered illegal because our system is stupid. At the very least we need to start deporting those illegals who we know have criminal records and/or are committing crimes once here. Its not a threat for someone to come here to work for a better life, but there are others who will attempt to take advantage of our broken system, and we need to do right by both of these groups.

i pretty much agree, but realize that the first thing you have to do is fix the current f-ed up system before you start concentrate on deporting the thugs. otherwise, you conjer up images of the little dutch boy analogy, which seems to be our current mindset towards the problem. while we are pushing 1 back out, 10 more get in. uphill battles suck.

step 1- fix system, make legal immigration easy
step 2- now that you have a reliable system in place and the only people illegaly immigrating are those you don't want anyways, you can go ahead and crackdown. hunt down the thugs already here now, if you want, while you are at it.
step 3- stiffen penalties to discourage the illegal immigration and pray that the newly fixed system does not break (see poorly legislated) again.

YES! YES! YEEEESSSSSS!

I'll just add...make legal immigration easy and secure.