I just want to sit back and admire this.
On one side; a ku frat boy pissant. On the other side; a former D1 football player, the Big 12 Defensive Freshman of the Year, an Academic All Big 12 team member, and a 2nd round NFL draft pick.
That's the beauty of message boards. I can argue with a guy who I greatly respect as far as his football talent and as a human being, but who I fundamentally disagree with on certain issues. Mike Leach never played college football, but he's a hell of a football coach. Just because I wasn't out there making tackles doesn't mean I can't have an opinion or be right about certain things.
Reverse the roles, 'Pad... imagine a ku fan tryin to convince K-State fans that after losing 52-21, ku was just as talented. That ku fan would be crucified and called moron. There's a double standard at play here, and instead of K-State fans using their own common sense, you're resorting to personal attacks and blind homerism.
Here's whats amazing to me...Everyone says that I'm arguing with a bias, when I have asked several times for BMW to prove me wrong. I think we forget that he called me out. I am looking at this from a pure talent based level. OK, Meier has been productive, but I-not U, believe it comes more from his football knowledge and the type of defense that must be played vs. the spread. I still hadn't seen him beat guys one-on-one, something talented guys do. I keep being called a homer when credit has been given to the success of ku players, which I attribute more to great coaching and the ability to their individual jobs within their offense, not talent. I am explaining where I am coming from. BMW says that the board is resorting to personal attacks, yet when he is proved wrong he calls me moron, ridiculous, homer and many others without ever proving me wrong. Even when he says that he will comeback with research, he still says he will come back with STATS, RECRUITING INFO, and Specific examples. When I have been asking for specific examples this entire thread. Stats and recruiting info mean jack to me as far as talent. A more talented receiver can play for a running team and not have the stats to match up. A more talented guy can have less stars than another guy and still be more talented. Even worse, you made the comment BMW, that ku was more talented and you are just now going to find specific examples. No one ever said ku was not a good TEAM. EVER. I did say ku 07 was not as good as they think, and still stand by that statement. Meier doesnt have to be the most talented to do well in the nFL which is exactly my point. He just like everyone else would need a team that asks him to do good at what he does well, like find the hole in the zone based on the coverage. I can guarantee you that he will not be asked to beat guys 1 on 1.
I believe you guys are letting your bias get in the way. It's understandable because you are proud of your team but that you shouldn't overlook when the discussion was about to begin with. I would make the same argument with any two teams that I have watched closely. But it's my opinion. Dont get pissed because you cant prove it.
ku ranks 23 in total offense and KSU ranks 35 . Total Defense ku ranks 95 and KSU ranks 117 These are the facts about the stats. You mean to tell me with a better coach KSU couldnt move from 35 to 23 or 117 to 95. This is the reason why I say what you guys believe is a talent difference is really a difference in coaching. PROVE ME WRONG and I can possibly see things your way. You cant believe that you or your friends have done that up to this point... 
It seems to me BMW and his buddies get pissed at me disagreeing with them, not the other way around. But, getting pissed is not the way for you to prove yourself when someone disagrees. Continuing to ask me what is talent after I posted the Websters definition. The talent of a guy would be exactly what you perceive the talent to be and is very subjective. I have only asked for proof. He gave me one with Meier. One. Which I disagreed with and gave the reason why.
Terry, I think most of this argument is based on two different interpretations of the word "talent." I believe talent is more than just athletic ability. I think there's an inherent "it" factor with some players that allows them to consistently make the big play and be in the right place at the right time. I think ku has more of those types of players than K-State. I also believe that ku has more potential NFL prospects than K-State. I agree with you that ku is more well-coached under than Mangino than K-State was under Ron Prince. Where I disagree, and I think others disagree as well, is that K-State's recruiting classes and current group of players are on par with ku.
I apologize for some of the harsh words, and I don't mean it literally in the sense that you're a "moron." I just find certain arguments that you make "moronic," such as your argument that K-State's receivers and d-line are better than ku's. I think it's "ridiculous" when you say that '07 was the worst year ever for the Big 12 North. I'm criticizing your statements, not you as a person. I have a high amount of respect for anyone who has played football at the high D-1 level. I'm sorry to call you out like this, but I really wanted to know why someone with such football knowledge, such as yourself, would honestly believe K-State and ku were even in talent level.
In the ku vs. K-State game, ku outrushed K-State, ~ 280 to ~ 90. To me, that showed a correlation between each team's o-line and d-line. When I watched the game, to me, it looked like ku dominated both lines of scrimmage. Watching the ku/K-State game as someone who has never played college football, ku looked to have a more physical, more deep, overall more talented football team. I've seen K-State fans consistently say that Freeman is more talented than Reesing. On a purely physical standpoint, that's true. On a purely skill and talent standpoint, that's ridiculous. Look at the numbers. They don't lie. Freeman, against ku, has had something like 1 TD and 13 TO's. That's a fact.
I haven't even talked about Dezmon Briscoe yet. The guy's only a true sophomore, and he has already broken ku's all-time record for receiving yards and receiving TD's. This is a kid who came from a high school program (Cedar Hill) that went 16-0 his senior year. He had offers to Mizzou, Iowa, and Oklahoma State. He's a finesse receiver who can beat you down field or he can beat you underneath. There's not a single player on K-State's team as dynamic and as difficult to defend as Dezmon Briscoe.
Finally, let's talk depth. There are two huge differences between ku and K-State: (1) recruiting high school prospects vs Juco prospects, and (2) in-state recruiting and establishing Texas pipelines. ku is prioritizing high school prospects, while winning most of the in-state recruiting battles vs. K-State. ku is also getting a nice pipeline going through Dallas and other parts of Texas. Here's an example of the last two recruiting classes for ku and K-State (Jucos in bold):
ku:
'07:Isiah Barfield ATH 6-0 175 - 5.4 Haven, KS
Dezmon Briscoe WR 6-2 180 4.7 5.5 Cedar Hill, TX
Anthony Davis DB 5-11 184 4.5 5.5 Tulsa, OK
Patrick Dorsey DT 5-11 263 5.22 5.5 Houston, TX
Drew Dudley LB 6-2 212 4.6 5.5 College Station, TX
Steven Foster RB 6-3 230 4.68 5.5 Sedgwick, KS
Kendrick Harper DB 5-10 187 4.45 5.5 El Dorado, KS Chris Harris ATH 6-0 180 4.4 5.2 Bixby, OK
Chet Hartley OL 6-4 310 5.07 5.6 El Dorado, KS Jeremiah Hatch OL 6-3 301 - 5.5 Dallas, TX
Richard Johnson Jr. DE 6-4 255 5 5.6 Jefferson City, MO
Jake Laptad DE 6-4 215 - 5.2 Jenks, OK
Rell Lewis ATH 5-10 180 4.5 5.5 Muskogee, OK
Ryan Murphy DB 5-10 171 4.4 5.8 Lawrence, KS
Patrick Resby DB 6-2 195 - 5.7 Corsicana, TX Jeff Spikes OL 6-5 316 5.77 5.2 Painesville, OH
Justin Springer LB 6-4 220 - 5.5 Los Fresnos, TX
A.J. Steward QB 6-4 210 4.6 5.4 St. Louis, MO
Johnathan Wilson WR 6-3 185 4.6 5.2 Houston, TX
'08:Tim Biere TE 6-4 226 4.8 5.7 Omaha, NE
Greg Brown DB 5-11 164 - 5.6 Cedar Hill, TX
Jocques Crawford RB 6-1 220 4.55 5.9 Cisco, TX Nathan D'Cunha OL 6-7 307 - 5.8 Santa Barbara, CA Rod Harris WR 6-2 190 4.5 5.6 Brenham, TX Tanner Hawkinson TE 6-6 230 4.8 5.7 McPherson, KS
Ben Lueken OL 6-5 318 5.1 5.5 St. Louis, MO
Trevor Marrongelli OL 6-4 285 5.1 5.5 Round Rock, TX
D.J. Marshall DE 6-4 230 4.75 5.6 Mesquite, TX
Darius Parish DT 6-3 325 5.08 5.5 Wichita, KS
Daymond Patterson WR 5-8 165 4.43 5.7 Mesquite, TX
Kale Pick QB 6-1 198 4.5 5.6 Dodge City, KS
Nicholas Plato DE 6-6 228 4.82 5.5 Edwardsville, IL
Corrigan Powell DB 5-10 161 4.5 5.5 Garland, TX
Sean Ransburg ATH 6-1 185 4.5 5.5 Harrisonville, MO
Josh Richardson LB 6-4 195 4.45 5.5 Dublin, OH
Alonso Rojas K 6-3 195 - 5.5 Miami, FL Lubbock Smith DB 5-11 182 4.4 5.6 Dallas, TX
John Williams OL 6-4 335 - 5.7 Tulsa, OK
Duane Zlatnik DE 6-4 260 - 5.6 Rossville, KS
K-State:
'07:
Mike Abana DT 6-6 290 - 5.5 Santa Monica, CA Corey Adams OL 6-4 235 - 5.2 Monument, CO
Alesana Alesana OL 6-6 318 - 5.6 San Francisco, CA Clyde Aufner OL 6-7 260 - 5.6 Peculiar, MO
Demetrius Bell RB 5-8 158 4.4 5.4 Olathe, KS
Lamark Brown ATH 6-3 215 4.55 6.0 St. Louis, MO
Gary Chandler DB 5-11 186 4.43 6.0 Coffeyville, KS Josh Cherry K 6-1 170 4.8 5.5 McCook, NE
Kaleb Drinkgern OL 6-7 260 4.9 5.2 Marysville, KS
Colten Freeze OL 6-6 270 5.1 5.4 Liberty, MO
Raphael Guidry DE 6-4 245 4.7 5.4 La Marque, TX
Brian Harris LB 6-4 220 4.6 5.3 East St. Louis, IL
Tysyn Hartman ATH 6-3 191 4.65 5.5 Wichita, KS
Reggie Haynes DB 6-1 170 4.65 5.3 Apopka, FL
Danny Hogan WR 6-2 185 4.4 5.4 Dallas, TX
Payton Kirk DE 6-5 250 4.8 5.3 Liberty, MO
Ben Liu OL 6-6 325 5.2 5.5 Sacramento, CA Kendrick Matthews DB 5-11 180 4.5 5.4 Missouri City, TX
Jerrell McDaniel WR 6-1 185 4.5 5.5 East St. Louis, IL
Deon Murphy ATH 5-10 165 4.36 5.6 Coffeyville, KS Ernie Pierce WR 6-4 215 4.5 5.6 Santa Barbara, CA Jake Roepke OL 6-7 298 5.1 5.1 Hoyt, KS
Kevin Rohleder LB 6-1 205 4.4 5.5 Wichita, KS
Eldridge Sims OL 6-6 288 5.1 5.5 Compton, CA Xzavier Stewart DT 6-1 260 4.7 5.2 Chicago, IL
Dahrnaz Tigner DB 6-3 210 4.5 5.0 Pampano Beach, FL
Brandon Walls LB 6-0 205 4.49 5.6 Irving, TX
Justin Woods DB 5-10 180 4.3 5.5 Shawnee, KS
'08:
Brandon Banks WR 5-8 160 4.4 5.6 Bakersfield, CA Dustin Bell DB 6-0 180 4.45 5.6 Bakersfield, CA Josh Berard LB 6-2 220 4.7 5.6 Torrance, CA Daniel Calvin DT 6-3 322 4.9 5.9 Bakersfield, CA Jarell Childs RB 6-3 216 4.5 5.4 Kansas City, MO
William Cooper OL 6-5 260 - 5.3 Hayti, MO
Logan Dold ATH 6-1 200 4.54 5.6 Garden Plain, KS
Ethan Douglas OL 6-6 285 - 5.3 Basehor, KS Antonio Felder DE 6-3 245 4.5 5.6 El Dorado, KS John Finau DT 6-1 295 5 5.6 Torrance, CA Zach Hanson OL 6-8 310 - - Sacramento, CA Brandon Harold DE 6-5 260 - 5.6 East St. Louis, IL
Jack Hayes DE 6-4 255 - 5.4 Perkinston, MS
Adrian Hilburn WR 6-2 190 4.4 5.7 San Francisco, CA Blair Irvin DB 5-11 185 4.4 5.6 Coffeyville, KS Joseph Kassanavoid ATH 6-6 215 4.7 5.5 Lawson, MO
Collin Klein QB 6-4 202 4.65 5.6 Loveland, CO
Billy McClellan DB 5-9 180 4.4 5.5 Wilmington, CA George Pierson K 6-0 180 - 5.4 Tyler, TX Ulla Pomele LB 6-1 235 - 5.8 Santa Rosa, CA Edward Prince OL 6-5 280 4.8 5.6 Wesson, MS Aubrey Quarles WR 6-2 190 4.4 5.9 Santa Rosa, CA Hansen Sekona LB 6-0 230 4.6 5.6 San Mateo, CA Attrail Snipes WR 6-1 180 4.4 5.5 Bakersfield, CA Grant Valentine DE 6-3 240 4.5 5.6 Glendale, CA Wade Weibert OL 6-5 300 5.12 5.6 El Dorado, KS Braden Wilson LB 6-4 220 - 5.0 Smith Center, KS
Many of the commitments from K-State's classes didn't show up, or either transferred or quit the team. ku, meanwhile, is building depth through high school prospects. I have no doubt that the aftermath from these past two recruiting classes will come back to bite K-State. Snyder has his work cut out for him.
