Jamar/Dom

[mavrick1821]

With a great post presence like Kelly may be....I think that is a key to our guards going inside outside and also having open looks on the wing.  This alone could mean a major jump in FG% for Pullen and great looks and slash opportunities for Sutton and others in the 3.

[jswo89]

If I had to guess PT breakdown:

1.  Clemente 15, Pullen 10, Russell 15
2.  Pullen 15, Clemente 10, McGruder 10, Irving 5
3.  Sutton 25, McGurder 10, Samuels 5
4.  Judge 20, Samuels 20
5.  Kelly 25, Judge 5, Colon 5, Henriquez 5

Hate to say it, but I would count on Colon playing more than 5 minutes a game, especially early on. Maybe by conference play Lou will spend 35 minutes on the bench.

what makes you say that?

also need to give "props" to catzacker for starting this great/interesting thread on the hoops board.

I'm not saying that I think he's going to be a 20+ minute player by any means, but he played way more minutes than his production deserved last year, and I think that trend is going to continue.  I think he'll play 10 or 15ish minutes in early non con play and then eventually it will be all Kelly/Judge/Jam Sam.

Agreed with giving props to catzacker, great topic.

[SuperG]

he should only work on finishing around the rim (off penetration and post ups) and threes, and honestly ignore his mid-range game.

Really, this goes for about any player IMO.

I wouldn't go this far... I've always had the feeling that Dom's silky-smooth jumper was money from 10-12 feet in practice. It's just never translated into points in games. My first inclination is that it's nerves and lack of confidence when it counts. Therefore, he should always look drive first... and if they really give him the open 12 footer, then he should be taking the shot... I think he'll find a rhythm eventually. But hell, I thought Ron Anderson would a top 5 rebounder in the Big XII by this season too. 

[pissclams]

i hope you're wrong.
the door on colon should have closed with last season.
ck, judge, samuels, henriquez - they're our future and need to get as many minutes as possible in the non con.
just an imo.

Ya I think its safe to say that the 3-5 are all interchangable on this team, they all pretty much play the same position depending on how the defensive assignments fall.

stupid post, was in a meeting not paying attention.

if we play the offense the way i'm suggesting we should, then with the limited range our 3's have, we could see CK dumping the  ball into a sutton/samuels on the block when the defense dictates.

They definitely tried that with Dom last year.  He just kind of sucks offensively.  

And zack, I really don't want to see Sutton have a midrange game.  I'm confident his 12-15 foot jumpers would look just as bad as his 3's, but at least the 3's are worth 50% more.

It's not that I'd rather he took 2 steps inside the arc and shot, because he's terrible either way, so the reward is greater on a 3 shot, I guess what I don't understand is wtf has he been doing for the past 2 years?  I don't see any offensive progression at all (more points?  sure, but that's relative to the amount of PT he's gotten and the scoring that left b/t his fr and so year).  He just seems like a guy who doesn't know his own game or has no idea what his game should be.  It's like he's been practicing chucking 3's instead of working inside out, which would be more effective.  I suppose it took Hoskins a while too.  

he should only work on finishing around the rim (off penetration and post ups) and threes, and honestly ignore his mid-range game.

Really, this goes for about any player IMO.

maybe we should just have him work on the 25 point shot from mid-court 

[ksu_FAN]

If I had to guess PT breakdown:

1.  Clemente 15, Pullen 10, Russell 15
2.  Pullen 15, Clemente 10, McGruder 10, Irving 5
3.  Sutton 25, McGurder 10, Samuels 5
4.  Judge 20, Samuels 20
5.  Kelly 25, Judge 5, Colon 5, Henriquez 5

Hate to say it, but I would count on Colon playing more than 5 minutes a game, especially early on. Maybe by conference play Lou will spend 35 minutes on the bench.

what makes you say that?

also need to give "props" to catzacker for starting this great/interesting thread on the hoops board.

I'm not saying that I think he's going to be a 20+ minute player by any means, but he played way more minutes than his production deserved last year, and I think that trend is going to continue.  I think he'll play 10 or 15ish minutes in early non con play and then eventually it will be all Kelly/Judge/Jam Sam.

Agreed with giving props to catzacker, great topic.

I agree as well.  Frank likes what Colon brings when he plays with energy.  He'll play in spots and probably be around 10-15 MPG in the OOC.  But I also agree that by the time Big 12 play, some of the younger guys will probably move past him.  End of the season, probably 10-12 MPG.

[jswo89]

i hope you're wrong.
the door on colon should have closed with last season.
ck, judge, samuels, henriquez - they're our future and need to get as many minutes as possible in the non con.
just an imo.

I hope I'm wrong too. I'm definitely on the henriquez bandwagon and there are few players ever I've enjoyed watching play as much as Jam Sam

[yosh]

If I had to guess PT breakdown:

1.  Clemente 15, Pullen 10, Russell 15
2.  Pullen 15, Clemente 10, McGruder 10, Irving 5
3.  Sutton 25, McGurder 10, Samuels 5
4.  Judge 20, Samuels 20
5.  Kelly 25, Judge 5, Colon 5, Henriquez 5

Hate to say it, but I would count on Colon playing more than 5 minutes a game, especially early on. Maybe by conference play Lou will spend 35 minutes on the bench.

what makes you say that?

also need to give "props" to catzacker for starting this great/interesting thread on the hoops board.

I'm not saying that I think he's going to be a 20+ minute player by any means, but he played way more minutes than his production deserved last year, and I think that trend is going to continue.  I think he'll play 10 or 15ish minutes in early non con play and then eventually it will be all Kelly/Judge/Jam Sam.

Agreed with giving props to catzacker, great topic.

I wouldn't be shocked to see Colon get 15 mpg early on.  That said, the caliber of options Frank has this year is far superior.  It's easier to get PT when Dk and Ron Anderson are the only other options.  As the younger, more atheletic, better guys learn to play defensively, it's going to be hard to justify putting Colon out there. 

[michigancat]

i wouldn't be shocked if colon starts all year just to pound the ever-living-f*ck out of the opposing bigs for a couple minutes.

"set the tone"

[kcchiefdav]

My thoughts:


Good breakdown.

I'd probably just go guards, wing, and bigs.

Guard minutes:
Clemente 31
Pullen 31
McGruder 5
Russell 7
Irving 6

Wing:
Sutton 25
Samuels 8
McGruder 7

Bigs:
Kelly 25
Judge 22
Samuels 15
Colon 10
Henriquez 8

I think you're greatly underestimating how fast frank wants to play this year. I think more people will be see more minutes just so we can keep the pace fast fast fast. Also, hopefully the starting gaurds will have fewer minutes this year because we'll blow some people out.

[doom]

My thoughts:


Good breakdown.

I'd probably just go guards, wing, and bigs.

Guard minutes:
Clemente 31
Pullen 31
McGruder 5
Russell 7
Irving 6

Wing:
Sutton 25
Samuels 8
McGruder 7

Bigs:
Kelly 25
Judge 22
Samuels 15
Colon 10
Henriquez 8

I think you're greatly underestimating how fast frank wants to play this year. I think more people will be see more minutes just so we can keep the pace fast fast fast. Also, hopefully the starting gaurds will have fewer minutes this year because we'll blow some people out.

Because of that I think the back up guards get a lot of time in non con junk games and garbage time.  Also forgot to add in Energy.  We'll need to develop those guys for next year and for conference play depth. 

[ksu_FAN]

My thoughts:


Good breakdown.

I'd probably just go guards, wing, and bigs.

Guard minutes:
Clemente 31
Pullen 31
McGruder 5
Russell 7
Irving 6

Wing:
Sutton 25
Samuels 8
McGruder 7

Bigs:
Kelly 25
Judge 22
Samuels 15
Colon 10
Henriquez 8

I think you're greatly underestimating how fast frank wants to play this year. I think more people will be see more minutes just so we can keep the pace fast fast fast. Also, hopefully the starting gaurds will have fewer minutes this year because we'll blow some people out.

Because of that I think the back up guards get a lot of time in non con junk games and garbage time.  Also forgot to add in Energy.  We'll need to develop those guys for next year and for conference play depth.  

Good points, even if neither of you know how to use the quote function correctly.

Forgot about Merriemawether.  He'll get some minutes, similar to Colon probably.  

I think when it shakes out, conference season and games where teams are able to muddy it out and turn it into lower possession games (NU), the better, more experienced players will get more minutes.  Its is clear though, Frank is more likely to throw guys out there you don't expect (and at times you don't expect) perhaps more than any other coach I've ever seen.  IMO, this is probably the most "high school coach-like" Frank has shown while at K-State.

[sys]

There's very  little value in having a 6-7+ guy playing on the perimeter at the college level, unless their name is Kobe, Lebron, Carmelo, or Durant.   Lateral quickness, overall quickness, shooting, and ball-handling are much more important then a few extra inches that far from the basket.   Jamar's height isn't going to do us much good if he's at the three point line getting blown past by a quick 6'3 wing guard or getting into foul trouble trying to stay in front of him.

On offense, size is a big advantage for players posting up near the rim but means relatively little twenty feet from the basket.  Wing players need to be able to dribble and shoot on offense, and a smaller, quicker player would negate Jamar's ability to do either.  Moreover, since we don't have room for three guys trying to post up inside and hovering around the three point line makes it harder to get offensive rebounds, Samuels would be essentially useless on offense and a liability on defense at the three.

As far as putting him there for potential matchup issues, I'm not quite seeing the need.  For one thing, we already have Sutton who's 6-5 and 210.  If we see a big wing he'll be able to nearly matchup with him size-wise anyway.  Second, there only very few wing players 6-7 or taller in college basketball anyway: Kyle Singler at Duke, Robbie Hummel at Purdue, Stanley Robinson at UConn.   I think it makes more sense to keep Jamar at the four and not try to adjust what we're doing to accomodate the lineup of a handful of teams that aren't even on our schedule.

On the other hand, having a post player who is the same size but quicker and more skilled than the average four man is a huge advantage, as we've seen with Michael Beasley and Bill Walker, for instance.   If you put those guys up against a typical college four man they look tremendously skilled and athletic.   Compared to a typical wing guard, they're just big and slow and clumsy.

[kstatefreak42]

There's very  little value in having a 6-7+ guy playing on the perimeter at the college level, unless their name is Kobe, Lebron, Carmelo, or Durant.   Lateral quickness, overall quickness, shooting, and ball-handling are much more important then a few extra inches that far from the basket.   Jamar's height isn't going to do us much good if he's at the three point line getting blown past by a quick 6'3 wing guard or getting into foul trouble trying to stay in front of him.

On offense, size is a big advantage for players posting up near the rim but means relatively little twenty feet from the basket.  Wing players need to be able to dribble and shoot on offense, and a smaller, quicker player would negate Jamar's ability to do either.  Moreover, since we don't have room for three guys trying to post up inside and hovering around the three point line makes it harder to get offensive rebounds, Samuels would be essentially useless on offense and a liability on defense at the three.

As far as putting him there for potential matchup issues, I'm not quite seeing the need.  For one thing, we already have Sutton who's 6-5 and 210.  If we see a big wing he'll be able to nearly matchup with him size-wise anyway.  Second, there only very few wing players 6-7 or taller in college basketball anyway: Kyle Singler at Duke, Robbie Hummel at Purdue, Stanley Robinson at UConn.   I think it makes more sense to keep Jamar at the four and not try to adjust what we're doing to accomodate the lineup of a handful of teams that aren't even on our schedule.

On the other hand, having a post player who is the same size but quicker and more skilled than the average four man is a huge advantage, as we've seen with Michael Beasley and Bill Walker, for instance.   If you put those guys up against a typical college four man they look tremendously skilled and athletic.   Compared to a typical wing guard, they're just big and slow and clumsy.

[/quot I agree with you on that. I personally would like to see Rodney Mcgruder play some at the 3. He has a better offensive game than Jamar.  I think now that Jamar has packed on 20 lbs he can bang with the posts, but problem is we have alot of posts.

[SCHITZ]

not sure why all the dom hate in this thread, this year will be his breakout season....easily our most complete player - defense, rebounding, slashing, add that in with the new improved jumper 3pt shot, and Dominique Sutton is my new favorite player (would have been Kelly but his D sucks donkey dick)

[sys]

(would have been Kelly but his D sucks donkey dick)

that's too bad.  was that why we lost the wsu game?  still haven't seen any _fan style synopses for that debacle.

[michigancat]

There's very  little value in having a 6-7+ guy playing on the perimeter at the college level, unless their name is Kobe, Lebron, Carmelo, or Durant.   Lateral quickness, overall quickness, shooting, and ball-handling are much more important then a few extra inches that far from the basket.   Jamar's height isn't going to do us much good if he's at the three point line getting blown past by a quick 6'3 wing guard or getting into foul trouble trying to stay in front of him.

On offense, size is a big advantage for players posting up near the rim but means relatively little twenty feet from the basket.  Wing players need to be able to dribble and shoot on offense, and a smaller, quicker player would negate Jamar's ability to do either.  Moreover, since we don't have room for three guys trying to post up inside and hovering around the three point line makes it harder to get offensive rebounds, Samuels would be essentially useless on offense and a liability on defense at the three.

As far as putting him there for potential matchup issues, I'm not quite seeing the need.  For one thing, we already have Sutton who's 6-5 and 210.  If we see a big wing he'll be able to nearly matchup with him size-wise anyway.  Second, there only very few wing players 6-7 or taller in college basketball anyway: Kyle Singler at Duke, Robbie Hummel at Purdue, Stanley Robinson at UConn.   I think it makes more sense to keep Jamar at the four and not try to adjust what we're doing to accomodate the lineup of a handful of teams that aren't even on our schedule.

On the other hand, having a post player who is the same size but quicker and more skilled than the average four man is a huge advantage, as we've seen with Michael Beasley and Bill Walker, for instance.   If you put those guys up against a typical college four man they look tremendously skilled and athletic.   Compared to a typical wing guard, they're just big and slow and clumsy.

Not sure who posted this, but I'd guess (at least hope) that Jamar would be posting up like crazy against a 6-3 wing instead of floating around the 3 point line.  I pretty much agree w/ the defense aspect of things.  And any wing skills (offensive or defensive) Jamar could develop would be extremely valuable, so I say have him work at the 3 a lot in practice at least.

[jthutch]

My thoght is Jamar will be a 3 when we go big.  If we have Kelly, Judge in at the same time or Colon or Henriquez in with Kelly or Judge.  This will give us a miss match inside with 3 bigs down low playing a high low game (colon isn't a bad passer if he doesn't have to dribble first) This also will allow us to play some zone and pretty efficient in a half court trap sitution with the long bodies that could be trapping.  I like Jamar at the 3 on defense for these reasons man to man may not be the best but he still is pretty quick and could post up on smaller 3s. 

[PoetWarrior]

Without speaking specifically of our team, I disagree 100% with the theory behind sys's (or whoever's) post.

I want a team filled exclusively with 6'7"-6'11", all weighing less than 260 lbs., running, jumping, swatting, dunking acrobats and I don't care even a little if they are occasionaly beat off the dribble or can't hit threes (but lets be honest, with enough of them one of those dudes will be a good set shooter from 3) because their overwhelming size/speed/athleticism will smother the smaller, more traditional team.

Give me Wallys and Jamars and several from Memphis' 2008 team (not Rose).

Of the 5, whichever is the best ball handler will play the point, no matter his size, which ever is the best shooter plays the 2, and which ever has the most meat on his bones plays the 5, etc...And on D you base who guards who, similarly on physical attributes...

[mcmwcat]

1-3-1 zone with jamar at point could be used to negate any speed matchup disadvantys we face with him at the 3.  wally would run baseline in this scenario while kelly plays the inside role.

[SCHITZ]

(would have been Kelly but his D sucks donkey dick)

that's too bad.  was that why we lost the wsu game?  still haven't seen any _fan style synopses for that debacle.

I still see Kelly being this teams 2nd leading scorer with about 8-9 boards a game, and getting a couple big time blocks every game.  But I think his lazy D(not being in the right position both guarding and rebounding) will cost him minutes in the beginning of the season. 

[steve dave]

(would have been Kelly but his D sucks donkey dick)

that's too bad.  was that why we lost the wsu game?  still haven't seen any _fan style synopses for that debacle.

I still see Kelly being this teams 2nd leading scorer with about 8-9 boards a game, and getting a couple big time blocks every game.  But I think his lazy D(not being in the right position both guarding and rebounding) will cost him minutes in the beginning of the season. 

Yeah, Frank will sit your ass to make a point...sometimes to the detriment of the team.

[sys]

who's the coaching genius that experimented with moving this undersized but effective 4 to the 3?

http://www.82games.com/0910/09MIA9.HTM#bypos

[michigancat]

who's the coaching genius that experimented with moving this undersized but effective 4 to the 3?

http://www.82games.com/0910/09MIA9.HTM#bypos

biggest surprise is his defense IMO.  He's pretty well suited offensively to dominate 3's offensively, but I would assume he would struggle on d w/ quicker players.

Also, with Wright, Haslem, Beasley, and now Arroyo, that's a ton of EMAW connections.  (I still count opp' as an EMAW).

[michigancat]

OK, I'm guessing you found that 82games link here:

http://www.basketballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=774

After relooking at things, his defense is worse at the 3, but he is more valuable and his opponent is less valuable (despite the higher scoring).  He's a dominant rebounder at the 3.

[sys]

yeah, from there.


i didn't really look at it closely, just glanced at it to see that it supported my a priori samuels opinion and linked it up.

looking at it more closely... although the sample size is really too small to mean much, beasley's numbers don't look that bad at the 3.  the turnover difference is dramatic, and are probably what is killing his overall offensive production.  assume that's either correctable, or an artifact of sample size and you can make an argument to continue the experiment.