LOL @ Minutemen

[Kat Kid]

You should read Thoreau.  He took principled stands AND walked about nature.  Try on Walden's Pond.

[Dirty Sanchez]

Its well known that Americans favor closing the border and limiting access to illegal aliens, but elected officials repeatedly fail to act on the people's behalf.  It is very much an Enlightenment (18th C Jefferson/Locke type Enlightenment--not the same that modern libs have dubbed themselves so they can tell everyone else what to do and think) idea that when a government fails to act on behalf of the people, that the people have a right to change the government.

Um, you can change the government by electing new elected officials. 

And you're not "driving the wedge"?  LOL.  OK.

In theory, yes.  I'd like to say that still works. But sadly, both parties are basically the same and there are enough braindead people beholden to one or the other that it keeps going back and forth.  Special interests so dominate both sides that they say a bunch of good stuff during the campaign then change once they're in office so they can keep those funding sources in for reelection.  Those that are engaged know the real score.  America cannot continue on this course where one side demonizes the other for the sake of their own group's power. 

Am I driving the wedge in this thread?  I'm trying to reach out and get people to work together.  For that I'm being called "insane".  Being blinded by hate for other Americans is no way to go through life.  Listen to what they have to say.  Debate with them.  Don't call them crazy--unless they're 911-truther of SCM (warzone guy) types.  Then, yeah, that's crazy.

[Kat Kid]

Its well known that Americans favor closing the border and limiting access to illegal aliens, but elected officials repeatedly fail to act on the people's behalf.  It is very much an Enlightenment (18th C Jefferson/Locke type Enlightenment--not the same that modern libs have dubbed themselves so they can tell everyone else what to do and think) idea that when a government fails to act on behalf of the people, that the people have a right to change the government.

Um, you can change the government by electing new elected officials. 

And you're not "driving the wedge"?  LOL.  OK.

In theory, yes.  I'd like to say that still works. But sadly, both parties are basically the same and there are enough braindead people beholden to one or the other that it keeps going back and forth.  Special interests so dominate both sides that they say a bunch of good stuff during the campaign then change once they're in office so they can keep those funding sources in for reelection.  Those that are engaged know the real score.  America cannot continue on this course where one side demonizes the other for the sake of their own group's power. 

Am I driving the wedge in this thread?  I'm trying to reach out and get people to work together.  For that I'm being called "insane".  Being blinded by hate for other Americans is no way to go through life.  Listen to what they have to say.  Debate with them.  Don't call them crazy--unless they're 911-truther of SCM (warzone guy) types.  Then, yeah, that's crazy.

LOL

No one takes you seriously because your arguments are so disingenuous they must be  purposefully so.

Your first post is what you really feel, then you backpedaled when you saw that everyone thought you were a paranoid freak.

The idea that events in Laredo, TX define the entire situation is insane.  If you care to check, crime rates for undocumented immigrants are lower than those of Americans.

"Invasion?"  Really?  Compare immigration rates between now and throughout U.S. History (as a percentage of population).  Look at the disgraceful way in which our immigration policy is handled (compare Cuban vs. Dominican).  How many work visas do we give for agricultural or manual labor work?  Which taxes do undocumented immigrants pay or not pay?  How many &@#%ing Iraqis have we given refugee status and allowed to immigrate?  Does "invasion" begin to give justice to the complexity of this issue?

Our current immigration policy is humiliating and a big reason why we have lost standing in the world.  The entire system is broken, but not for the reasons you give.  Your rhetoric is straight from the uninformed corner of Glenn Beck and completely ignorant of and disinterested in actual facts.  If you care to learn something check out Pew Hispanic Center, read Portes and Rumbaut's extensive study of second generation in "Legacies: The Story of the Second Generation" or their more recent "Immigrant America: A Portrait."  These are serious scholars who research things instead of yelling about them.  You could also check out the U.S. Government Census numbers to at least give yourself some numbers to consider.

Throwing political bombs is a lot easier than shaping an informed position based in fact.  I have beliefs that guide where I look and what I choose to believe, that's called perspective.  I would recommend you inform yourself enough to find a coherent one for yourself.  Using rhetoric that has no basis in reality and serves only to ramp up an ill-informed debate and avoid the issues at hand is unproductive if you truly seek a dialogue.  I don't think you do.

[Dirty Sanchez]

in·va·sion      /ɪnˈveɪʒən/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[in-vey-zhuhn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1.   an act or instance of invading or entering as an enemy, esp. by an army.
2.   the entrance or advent of anything troublesome or harmful, as disease.
3.   entrance as if to take possession or overrun: the annual invasion of the resort by tourists.
4.   infringement by intrusion.

Tell me how these two definitions aren't met by the chaos across the entire border?  And the first definition...there have been documented cases of Mexican army troops north of the Rio Grande, and they weren't there trying to grab some of their people who got away.

Yeah, our policy is a disgrace. I'm not denying that.  Wet foot/dry foot is stupid.

Laredo isn't the entire problem. Not by a long shot. Talk to any bordertown.

I'm not backing down.  The border must be closed.  You want to fix health care?  Closing the border would be a great start.  The people of southern California would love to be able to go to the emergency room without paying for their care and that of six others who can't pay because they are not legally being paid to work in this country.

All I ask is that people come into my house through the front door, not break in through a back window. 

I appreciate you trying to debate this time instead of calling someone who disagrees with you crazy (in most of your post anyway).

[Kat Kid]

in·va·sion      /ɪnˈveɪʒən/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[in-vey-zhuhn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1.   an act or instance of invading or entering as an enemy, esp. by an army.
2.   the entrance or advent of anything troublesome or harmful, as disease.
3.   entrance as if to take possession or overrun: the annual invasion of the resort by tourists.
4.   infringement by intrusion.

Tell me how these two definitions aren't met by the chaos across the entire border?  And the first definition...there have been documented cases of Mexican army troops north of the Rio Grande, and they weren't there trying to grab some of their people who got away.

Yeah, our policy is a disgrace. I'm not denying that.  Wet foot/dry foot is stupid.

Laredo isn't the entire problem. Not by a long shot. Talk to any bordertown.

I'm not backing down.  The border must be closed.  You want to fix health care?  Closing the border would be a great start.  The people of southern California would love to be able to go to the emergency room without paying for their care and that of six others who can't pay because they are not legally being paid to work in this country.

All I ask is that people come into my house through the front door, not break in through a back window. 

I appreciate you trying to debate this time instead of calling someone who disagrees with you crazy (in most of your post anyway).

1.   an act or instance of invading or entering as an enemy, esp. by an army.
2.   the entrance or advent of anything troublesome or harmful, as disease.
3.   entrance as if to take possession or overrun: the annual invasion of the resort by tourists.
4.   infringement by intrusion.[/quote]

1.  Undocumented immigrants are troublesome/harmful?  You clearly haven't read the literature on their crime rates vs. U.S. citizens.  Harmful?  If every illegal were deported tomorrow our economy could not find enough people to replace the jobs while still allowing for frictional unemployment.  You can lament the downfalls of the status quo, but what you seem to be advocating is muuuuch worse.  Illegal immigrants are the only people who don't pay hospital bills?  Fascinating!  I wonder how many medical malpractice suits illegals bring.  Undocumented immigrants pay property taxes, payroll taxes, don't receive their federal and state witholdings and pay into social security which they won't receive.  I would love to here what a study showed about their tax burden to services received compared to their cohorts by socio-economic status.

2.  If you really think that Mexico is somehow going to re-claim the southwestern U.S. then I don't even know where to begin.  Mexican soldiers have been spotted North of the Rio Grande?  Ok.  I would welcome Mexico attempting to invade the U.S.  That is laughable.

3.  Infringement by intrusion?  I guess.  But to act as though illegal immigration is some malevolent plot by the Mexican people or the Mexican government is unhinged.  The reason they come is because jobs are available.  They wouldn't pay upwards of $5,000 to come here to not work.  I would like a guest worker program that made it reasonably easy and advantageous for employers and employees to be documented instead of not.  What is your solution?  Stop the invasion by closing the borders?  Good luck with that.  They aren't coming because we have too much legal immigration.

[michigancat]

I just think stopping the illegal immigration "invasion" is the most hateful way to "help" the country.

There's an endless supply of problems that concern me a lot more than people that want to come here and work.

[shaft3500]

Yeah, our policy is a disgrace. I'm not denying that.  Wet foot/dry foot is stupid.

so explain to me why we shouldn't fix this first before we just start shooting people that just want to mow your lawn?

[shaft3500]

nevermind. 2 immigration threads, 2 concert threads. too confusing. sanch, just try not to sound so red dawnish and then people will actually listen to you a lot more. when you start with that kill em all type rederick, it tends to make people tune out whatever logical points you might make.

[Dirty Sanchez]

in·va·sion      /ɪnˈveɪʒən/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[in-vey-zhuhn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1.   an act or instance of invading or entering as an enemy, esp. by an army.
2.   the entrance or advent of anything troublesome or harmful, as disease.
3.   entrance as if to take possession or overrun: the annual invasion of the resort by tourists.
4.   infringement by intrusion.

Tell me how these two definitions aren't met by the chaos across the entire border?  And the first definition...there have been documented cases of Mexican army troops north of the Rio Grande, and they weren't there trying to grab some of their people who got away.

Yeah, our policy is a disgrace. I'm not denying that.  Wet foot/dry foot is stupid.

Laredo isn't the entire problem. Not by a long shot. Talk to any bordertown.

I'm not backing down.  The border must be closed.  You want to fix health care?  Closing the border would be a great start.  The people of southern California would love to be able to go to the emergency room without paying for their care and that of six others who can't pay because they are not legally being paid to work in this country.

All I ask is that people come into my house through the front door, not break in through a back window. 

I appreciate you trying to debate this time instead of calling someone who disagrees with you crazy (in most of your post anyway).

1.   an act or instance of invading or entering as an enemy, esp. by an army.
2.   the entrance or advent of anything troublesome or harmful, as disease.
3.   entrance as if to take possession or overrun: the annual invasion of the resort by tourists.
4.   infringement by intrusion.

1.  Undocumented immigrants are troublesome/harmful?  You clearly haven't read the literature on their crime rates vs. U.S. citizens.  Harmful?  If every illegal were deported tomorrow our economy could not find enough people to replace the jobs while still allowing for frictional unemployment.  You can lament the downfalls of the status quo, but what you seem to be advocating is muuuuch worse.  Illegal immigrants are the only people who don't pay hospital bills?  Fascinating!  I wonder how many medical malpractice suits illegals bring.  Undocumented immigrants pay property taxes, payroll taxes, don't receive their federal and state witholdings and pay into social security which they won't receive.  I would love to here what a study showed about their tax burden to services received compared to their cohorts by socio-economic status.
[/quote]

Not all.  Where did I say all?  Do we need to add to the problems that we already have.  I welcome immigrants.  I just want them to come in the front door.
2.  If you really think that Mexico is somehow going to re-claim the southwestern U.S. then I don't even know where to begin.  Mexican soldiers have been spotted North of the Rio Grande?  Ok.  I would welcome Mexico attempting to invade the U.S.  That is laughable.

Recently there were reports of Mexican troops turning their machine guns on local law enforcement so as to be able to let drug smugglers into the US.  Its not a military invasion from Mexico that I'm afraid of.  But their troops have zero business crossing the border without our permission.  What other country on earth would let a foreign army in without permission or a fight?  Then those troops are there to provide cover for the worst among them, feeding a crime problem.

It is being taught in many textbooks in Mexico that the southwest US belongs to them still.

3.  Infringement by intrusion?  I guess.  But to act as though illegal immigration is some malevolent plot by the Mexican people or the Mexican government is unhinged.  The reason they come is because jobs are available.  They wouldn't pay upwards of $5,000 to come here to not work.  I would like a guest worker program that made it reasonably easy and advantageous for employers and employees to be documented instead of not.  What is your solution?  Stop the invasion by closing the borders?  Good luck with that.  They aren't coming because we have too much legal immigration.

A guest worker program would be the front door that I've been talking about. 

When I say "close the border" I don't mean stop any Mexican from coming in.  I mean close the hemmoraging and make it orderly.  It would be the humane thing to do on this side of the border.  Cut the coyotes off.  Shut down the "rape trees".  Stop people dying by the dozen in the back of a semi trailer.  Stop dying in the desert.  Stop people living in shacks with beds rented for 3 different 8-hour shifts. 

Without borders we have anarchy.  We must stop it now.  Make it orderly.  Then I'll talk path to citizenship.  Doing nothing is not an option.

Nevermind what else might be getting shipped across the border by OTM's.

[Kat Kid]

Dirty Sanchez-  Your actual policy proposals sound somewhat reasonable, but you need to really get a grasp on the rhetoric vs. reality.

So what if Mexican schools teach kids they have a right to the U.S. Southwest?  If we really want to re-visit the Mexican-American War and talk about fairness, we could but the U.S. doesn't look so rosey.  Unless this has some sort of tangible effect (and no Mexican immigration is not some conspiracy to populate our states and then start a revolution or secessionist movement, that is insane) then it is meaningless.  Did you know that in Japan students learn that Hiroshima was a terrible tradgedy?!!

As for the Mexican Army over the border.  If you truly believe that the Mexican army is consistently operating in U.S. territory as some sort of vigilante drug smuggling menace, then you are insane.  There is certainly a healthy amount of corruption in the Mexican army, there are certainly many drugs that are smuggled into the U.S. through Mexico.  Both of these facts have much less to do with border issues and much more to do with the recreational drug habits of Americans and the profit potential of drug trafficing.

[michigancat]

There is certainly a healthy amount of corruption in the Mexican army, there are certainly many drugs that are smuggled into the U.S. through Mexico.  Both of these facts have much less to do with border issues and much more to do with the recreational drug habits of Americans and the profit potential of drug trafficing.

Much easier to blame Mexicans, IMO.

[michigancat]

I'd be all for giving most of the Southwest back to Mexico FWIW.

Mostly desert.

[Kat Kid]

I'd be all for giving most of the Southwest back to Mexico FWIW.

Mostly desert.

I like New Mexico and SoCal.

I also like Nortenos.

I could go either way.  Texas could go and I'd be cool.

[michigancat]

I like SoCal.  Maybe we could offer Utah and keep SoCal?  I don't know, these invaders are pretty demanding.

I hate New Mexico, though.

[steve dave]

I'd be all for giving most of the Southwest back to Mexico FWIW.

Mostly desert.

I like New Mexico and SoCal.

I also like Nortenos.

I could go either way.  Texas could go and I'd be cool.

I would like to offer up a trade of NM and S. TX for the Baja Peninsula.  I know, bad trade for them but the worst they can do is turn it down.

[michigancat]

I'd be all for giving most of the Southwest back to Mexico FWIW.

Mostly desert.

I like New Mexico and SoCal.

I also like Nortenos.

I could go either way.  Texas could go and I'd be cool.

I would like to offer up a trade of NM and S. TX for the Baja Peninsula.  I know, bad trade for them but the worst they can do is turn it down.

If you ran for office (ANY office) based on this platform alone, I would vote for you.

[Kat Kid]

Yeah! Baja >>>>>>>>>>>> NM and TX South of Austin

I like NM though.  I could settle for retaining Durango,CO and picking up CABO WABO AND THE RED ROCKER!!!11!

[sys]

i think most mexicans would prefer if the us annexed the north rather than giving them our swest.


the $5000 figure is way off.  at least for mexicans crossing from mexico.  much cheaper.

[Dirty Sanchez]

Dirty Sanchez-  Your actual policy proposals sound somewhat reasonable, but you need to really get a grasp on the rhetoric vs. reality.

Ditto

So what if Mexican schools teach kids they have a right to the U.S. Southwest?  If we really want to re-visit the Mexican-American War and talk about fairness, we could but the U.S. doesn't look so rosey.  Unless this has some sort of tangible effect (and no Mexican immigration is not some conspiracy to populate our states and then start a revolution or secessionist movement, that is insane) then it is meaningless.  Did you know that in Japan students learn that Hiroshima was a terrible tradgedy?!!

We purchased the territory. And, yeah, the bombing of Hiroshima was a tragedy.  Shame it had to come to that, but it had to be done.

As for the Mexican Army over the border.  If you truly believe that the Mexican army is consistently operating in U.S. territory as some sort of vigilante drug smuggling menace, then you are insane.  There is certainly a healthy amount of corruption in the Mexican army, there are certainly many drugs that are smuggled into the U.S. through Mexico.  Both of these facts have much less to do with border issues and much more to do with the recreational drug habits of Americans and the profit potential of drug trafficing.

Some reports have come in as high as 200 incursions since 1996. 

Close the porous border, help solve both issues.


I'm out for the weekend.  Toodles.