KSUFans Archives
Sports => Frank Martin's OOD sponsored by the "Angriest Fans in America" => Topic started by: mavrick1821 on January 25, 2007, 11:52:28 AM
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How important is this game now!! :woohoo:
UT (besides OSU) maybe the best shot we have of a good Big 12 road W. UT gives up points, is weak on the boards and has played poorly all season against teams with good defenses. We will need to contain Durant (less than 25pts), but I think we have multiple ways to beat these guys. A game similar to ISU (offensive patience, D-pressure) should do the job.
Prediction: KSU 68 UT 65 (Durant 22 of UT's 65)
Thoughts?
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Who do we put on Durant?
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Is Akeem tall enough to guard him?
Also, you know you're badass when "containing" you means holding you to 25 or less.
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They struggled against an average NU team and lost to an average Villanova team, though both were on the road. I expect them to beat Baylor and lose to Tech leading up to our game. Its definately a winnable game and its not like Austin will be a really tough place to play. Durrant and their other young talent will help them, but I like our defense and experience to give us a shot in this one. Should be fun to watch.
We do have a couple that we must win before that one, but we're fans so I don't have a problem looking ahead a bit.
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EVERYONE! (LOL it will take the whole team). If I had to choose...Akeem Wright with double teams all over the place. We should make a point at not giving Durant an easy path thought the lane.
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Living in Austin, ut is my own personal fake internet rival. I badly want scoreboard in both football and basketball.
We played them pretty tough in Austin a couple of years ago, and FAN's right there the Drum won't be an intimidating place to play. Still, I'm not sure I like the way we match up with these guys.
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Wright is 6'6", Durant is 6'9". A significant difference when you're talking about the PF spot, but Huggins showed he was willing to do such a move when he let Hoskins guard Big Czech at ISU.
I imagine you're right about Wright (no pun intended) with double teams if/when possible on the low block especially.
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What is Akeem, 6'6? And Durant 6'8? Akeem can guard him as much as guarding someone like Durant is possible. The guy is just unstoppable. As long as we force him to take those impossible shots that he only makes 1/3 of the time, we can win. I think Akeem is the best guy to do that, despite being slightly shorter. Keep Durant away from the basket and force him to take fallaways when he's taking the jumpshot. Crash the boards hard.
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What is Akeem, 6'6? And Durant 6'8?
Wright is 6'6", Durant is 6'9".
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I wonder if putting Cartier on him would be best. He held his own with Taj Gray and his quickness (relative to most people that guard Durant) could limit him on the perimeter.
I think Hoskins will spends a lot of time on him, too. Akeem doesn't have as much experience defending a post as Hoskins and Cartier.
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Cartier is generally crap at guarding the low block; he's not quick enough (or tall enough to make up for the flat feet), and he usually ends up fouling early and sitting often. I'd rather have Hoskins on him than Cartier, but once again, we need Hoskins in the game; i.e., not in foul trouble. I still think Wright is our best bet.
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Cartier is much better at being physical this year.
Durant isn't a banger is he? He can score in the low block, but he seems to be more of a finesse guy to me. I say we rotate a bunch of different guys and bang the heck out of him.
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Actually, he's surprised me (Durant) when I've seen him thus far at how physical he's actually willing to be. With his shot and body size, you'd tag him as a finesse guy, but from what I've seen, that would be a dangerous assumption.
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Cartier is generally crap at guarding the low block; he's not quick enough (or tall enough to make up for the flat feet), and he usually ends up fouling early and sitting often. I'd rather have Hoskins on him than Cartier, but once again, we need Hoskins in the game; i.e., not in foul trouble. I still think Wright is our best bet.
You suck.
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Way to contribute.
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He absolutely owned Taj Gray when he wasn't hurt (look at the fouls):
http://www.kstatesports.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=3086&SPID=213&DB_OEM_ID=400&ATCLID=110121
http://www.kstatesports.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=3086&SPID=213&DB_OEM_ID=400&ATCLID=243304
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I think it has to be Akeem with help in the post. Akeem will guard him in the post with the body but hopefully keep hi far enough out where bennett and colon can come in and get some blocks, without putting them in a postiion to foul him.
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I think Durant eats Wright alive on the block. I'm not so sure that having Hoskins body him up isn't the way to go most of the time.
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Akeem Wright was born to guard Durant. I see no other option. AW may very well be the only defender in the Big 12 capable of shutting down the freshman phenom.
That's they key to beating UT. Durant has bailed them out of some games in which the rest of the team struggled. Take away the Durant safety net, and KSU is very capable of winning down there.
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Is that game NATIONAL or REGIONAL on ABC?
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Zone him and deny him the ball. Put Bennon (Afflonnet seems to have fallen by the wayside) in the middle and make them hit their outside shots.
UT is 9th in the league in FG# @ .446 (just above us at .432). We try to man him and will get into foul trouble- Huggy's 4 guard rotation (martin, hoskins, harris, wright) is more important to our overall production than risking it by trying to limit what one guy will do on the floor.
We match up well with Texas, they want to run and gun but will have trouble scoring when they don't get 2nd, 3rd, and 4th attempts at making FG's each time down the floor.
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forget about durant and concentrate on keeping abrams and augustin from getting easy looks.
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forget about durant and concentrate on keeping abrams and augustin from getting easy looks.
At least contain him on the perimeter. I think that's where he can do the most damage. Let him try to beat us on the block.
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forget about durant and concentrate on keeping abrams and augustin from getting easy looks.
Mason has been a bigger threat from the arc in conference play than Augustin.
I agree with Rusty that we can't let Durant go off from the perimeter, but we're talking about a guy grabbing almost 14 rebounds a game in league, it's not like he's not a prescence down low.
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He absolutely owned Taj Gray when he wasn't hurt (look at the fouls):
http://www.kstatesports.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=3086&SPID=213&DB_OEM_ID=400&ATCLID=110121
http://www.kstatesports.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=3086&SPID=213&DB_OEM_ID=400&ATCLID=243304
I remember the game. I was there. One game. I was also at countless other games where Martin had to guard the low block and was in foul trouble and on the bench before I finished my Pepsi.
Gray was the exception. Foul trouble is the norm.
How good is UT beyond the arc? Throwing a 2-3 at them might not be a bad idea if they aren't world-beaters from outside.
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Eh, upon further review, zoning them for extended periods of time might not be wise. They shoot 38.8% beyond the arc as a team, including 3 players with > 42% accuracy.
:frown:
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He absolutely owned Taj Gray when he wasn't hurt (look at the fouls):
http://www.kstatesports.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=3086&SPID=213&DB_OEM_ID=400&ATCLID=110121
http://www.kstatesports.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=3086&SPID=213&DB_OEM_ID=400&ATCLID=243304
I remember the game. I was there. One game. I was also at countless other games where Martin had to guard the low block and was in foul trouble and on the bench before I finished my Pepsi.
He's done the same thing guarding wings.
And that was two games.
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How good is UT beyond the arc? Throwing a 2-3 at them might not be a bad idea if they aren't world-beaters from outside.
abrams is the best shooter in the big 12 imo. can´t defend, but has an amazing shot.
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Colon has 5 good fouls, maybe the 5th could be a knock out blow to Durant, takes him out of the equation completely.
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He's done the same thing guarding wings.
And that was two games.
gray went for 23 points in one of those games, shooting 75%.
is that good defense?
and it will be kent shutting down durant. kent's due for his breakout game, and ut is it.
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He's done the same thing guarding wings.
And that was two games.
gray went for 23 points in one of those games, shooting 75%.
is that good defense?
If we hold Durant to 23 points, I'd call it decent.
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And wasn't everyone pissed that we ran the last play for Hoskins that game?
I can't remember.
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Did anyone watch the UT Nova game?? I didn't get to see it but I'm pretty sure Durant had 12 points....with only a free throw coming in the second half. Anyone know what defense they ran or if Durant was just having a bad shooting game?? You know that's the game Huggins will be disecting when going over film.
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I agree with tmramrod91, Huggins needs to devote some practice time until then for Colon to work on his hook (not hookshot). If Colon takes a swing at Durant before the game, perhaps in the parkinglot, does that avoid a second NCAA issue?
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He's done the same thing guarding wings.
And that was two games.
gray went for 23 points in one of those games, shooting 75%.
is that good defense?
If we hold Durant to 23 points, I'd call it decent.
i know kevin durant, and taj gray is no kevin durant.
if we play the kind of defense that lets taj gray shoot 75% and go for 23, durant will put up a double nickel.
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What is Akeem, 6'6? And Durant 6'8? Akeem can guard him as much as guarding someone like Durant is possible. The guy is just unstoppable. As long as we force him to take those impossible shots that he only makes 1/3 of the time, we can win. I think Akeem is the best guy to do that, despite being slightly shorter. Keep Durant away from the basket and force him to take fallaways when he's taking the jumpshot. Crash the boards hard.
I saw the huskers vs. Texas in person. Nebraska played a 3-2 zone, but what was amazing was that Durant was guarded by a guy 6'2'', Marcus Perry. Perry I would say had no shot of guarding him, therefore giving up 29 pts to Durant. It was truly a sight to laugh at, with times of Nebraska having the tallest man on the court at 6'4". But NU only allowed Texas to score 62 due to a tough zone.
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I say we shut down everybody else on the team. Try and make one guy beat us instead of nine.
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Rusty, what advantage would putting Martin (poor post defender) on Durant have as opposed to Wright (one of the best defenders in the conference)?
Wright isn't asked to guard posts often, no, but it isn't like it's night and day from guarding a forward.
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several years ago in the nba semifinals I think it was san antonio that put a small guy on shaq to deny any entry pass and it worked, if shaq did get the ball someone came from the help side and hacked the crap out of him, totally took shaq out of the games when they did that, maybe we'll do that with akeem.
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Rusty, what advantage would putting Martin (poor post defender) on Durant have as opposed to Wright (one of the best defenders in the conference)?
Size, rebounding, and experience. I'd rather have someone who's been average (I wouldn't call him poor) defending the post over someone who really hasn't been asked to do it before. Plus, you can use Wright to lock down arguably the best shooter in the Big XII (something Martin can't do), while he probably won't do significantly better on Durant than Cartier.
I'm guessing it will start out like this:
Hoskins on Durant
Wright on Abrams
Stewart or Young on Augustin
Bennett on James
Harris on Mason
Just plan on not containing, not stopping Durant and shut everyone else down.
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Size, rebounding, and experience.
Martin, if he's a legit 6'8" (questionable) is only 2" taller than Wright, and still shorter than Durant. Wright is a better rebounder than Martin; in fact, Wright is statistically the best rebounder on the team. And experience? Do you really think the transition to post D would be tough on Wright? If he struggled down there, it would be because of being physically outmatched, not lack of experience. Besides, like I said before, Martin is a poor post defender. Poor. Plus, we would rather have Wright in foul trouble than Martin (though neither is preferable, of course).
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Size, rebounding, and experience.
Martin, if he's a legit 6'8" (questionable) is only 2" taller than Wright, and still shorter than Durant. Wright is a better rebounder than Martin; in fact, Wright is statistically the best rebounder on the team. And experience? Do you really think the transition to post D would be tough on Wright? If he struggled down there, it would be because of being physically outmatched, not lack of experience. Besides, like I said before, Martin is a poor post defender. Poor. Plus, we would rather have Wright in foul trouble than Martin (though neither is preferable, of course).
Way to ignore the bulk of my post. They aren't playing a freaking game of one-on-one. Even if Wright could hold Durant to slightly fewer points, I'd put Martin on Durant.
Look at UT's starters:
Durant: 6'9", 23.5 ppg
James: 6'7", 6.9 ppg
Mason: 6'2", 9.8 ppg, 43% 3FG
Abrams: 5'10", 16.5 ppg, 44% 3FG
Augustin: 5'10", 13.7 ppg, 46% 3FG
Assume a starting lineup of:
Bennett 7-3
Martin 6-8 (even though he won't start, you seem obsessed w/Martin vs. Wright)
Wright 6-6
Harris 6-5
Stewart 6-4
Let's say you put Wright (without a doubt our best perimeter defender) on Durant. All of a sudden Martin is guarding a 6-2 guard shooting 43% from 3, and Stewart and Harris (our worst perimeter defender) are guarding smaller, quicker guards that can penetrate and shoot lights out from 3.
Hooray! We held Durant to 22. :banana:
Oh, wait, Augustin/Abrams shoot lights and combine for 35 out because we wasted our best perimeter player so we could slow down someone we had no chance of shutting down in the first place.
Now, let's say we put Hoskins/Martin on Durant. Durant goes crazy and gets his 30, but Wright completely shuts down Abram and Young and Stewart harass and are able to limit Augustin somewhat. Harris/Mason is a MUCH better matchup than Martin-Hoskins/Mason.
Basically, to summarize:
How the matchups, outside of Afellonnet, work out for us:
Durant: Wright > Martin
Mason: Martin <<< Harris
Abrams & Augustin: Stewart & Harris <<<<<<<<<< Wright & Stewart
I think we'll see Wright on the best guard. He's shown he can really bother smaller, quicker guards. Sometimes you have to pick your battles - just assume you're going to lose the battle with Durant either way and concentrate on taking advantage of your possible mismatch on the perimeter.
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Afellonnet died weeks ago. Why won't you let it go and love Bennon?
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I disagree with you that Harris >>> Martin on perimeter D though. I don't think Martin's perimeter D is bad at all.
You are right about one thing: it's about picking your battles. I just think we maximize our effectiveness with Wright on Durant and Martin on the perimeter, keeping him out of foul trouble, thus allowing him to score on the other end. We aren't going to stop Tejas, but with Martin and Hoskins playing their game, they can't stop us either.
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I disagree with you that Harris >>> Martin on perimeter D though. I don't think Martin's perimeter D is bad at all.
His quicks are so bad he's a horrible post defender, so you put him on a guard.
Gotcha.
If you waste Wright on Durant, you're putting Harris on a 5-10 point guard. Not pretty.
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I think you start by putting Wright on Augustine to see if you can make it tough for UT to initiate their offense. You take your chances initially with Hoskins on Durant, then rotate Martin in off the bench. I like having a long defender who can move his feet on the PG b/c perhaps you can eliminate 3 to 5 assists, which in turn eliminates 6 to 10 points and maybe more if you can frustrate the offense. The wild card is if Harris and Stewart can handle the other guys. I can see the premise of making Durant work for his shots, but defend him as best you can with Hoskins and Martin and see if you can limit the rest of the guys as much as possible.
I think the issue with Wright is he has not had to guard guys in the post much and I think if you get Durant posting him up on the low block he gets fouls early and often, then our best defender is on the bench on the road.
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I disagree with you that Harris >>> Martin on perimeter D though. I don't think Martin's perimeter D is bad at all.
His quicks are so bad he's a horrible post defender, so you put him on a guard.
Gotcha.
If you waste Wright on Durant, you're putting Harris on a 5-10 point guard. Not pretty.
Easier for help-side D to stop a guard driving than a post beating his guy around the block. Hey, I agree with you that there's no perfect answer. We just differ on which approach we think is best.
I can almost guarantee if Martin is on Durant, he will get into foul trouble and have to sit. Do you disagree with that?
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I disagree with you that Harris >>> Martin on perimeter D though. I don't think Martin's perimeter D is bad at all.
His quicks are so bad he's a horrible post defender, so you put him on a guard.
Gotcha.
If you waste Wright on Durant, you're putting Harris on a 5-10 point guard. Not pretty.
Easier for help-side D to stop a guard driving than a post beating his guy around the block. Hey, I agree with you that there's no perfect answer. We just differ on which approach we think is best.
I can almost guarantee if Martin is on Durant, he will get into foul trouble and have to sit. Do you disagree with that?
Martin won't be on Durant until at least 5 minutes in, anyway (Hoskins will - you completely ignore Hoskins). So, yes, I disagree. I also don't think Wright would do any better for the reasons listed in FAN's post.
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I just didn't mention Hoskins because I knew you and I (like most people here) were in agreement that he'd be on Durant some of the time. And it'll only take 10 minutes or less for Martin to get into foul trouble.
I hope I'm wrong if Martin does end up on Durant.
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Seriously koug, I think you're basing a lot of your opinions on Martin and his defense on last year. He has only had a couple games where he was in foul trouble enough to miss a bunch of minutes, largely due to how Huggins is using him. However, he is still asked to guard the opponents 4 most of the time when he is in the game. He has not fouled out once this year.
And frankly, Hoskins has been much more inconsistent and prone to foul out than Martin. Hoskins has shown a better ability to get to the boards, but he also is prone to some lapses (see Baylor) and has fouled out 3 times. Again, the way Huggins is using these two, and yes they often are guarding 4s still, they are much less prone to get into foul trouble even though they're asked to be more aggressive and defend to the perimeter.
Martin and Hoskins will get the main task with guarding Durant, though I wouldn't be surprised to see Wright on him for a few stretches.
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Actually, rumor has it Hoskins was ill during the Baylor game. Not terribly relevant, but I'm just throwin' that out there.
Also, don't forget—when considering Martin's D and proneness to fouling—that Huggins sits players in the first half with 2 fouls, whereas Wooly waited for them to pick up their 3rd before pulling them. I'm not sure a "fouls per minute" analysis would be possible (or remotely worth the time), but I am indeed basing my opinions on Martin's D from this year, not last. We just seem to differ, that's all.
I guess I'm also not real worried about drive penetration from their guards, but rather the deep ball, which Martin is more than capable of guarding.
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I guess I'm also not real worried about drive penetration from their guards, but rather the deep ball, which Martin is more than capable of guarding.
Put Harris on Abrams or Augustin, and you'll see plenty of three's set up by dribble penetration.
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I guess I'm also not real worried about drive penetration from their guards, but rather the deep ball, which Martin is more than capable of guarding.
Put Harris on Abrams or Augustin, and you'll see plenty of three's set up by dribble penetration.
As opposed to?
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I guess I'm also not real worried about drive penetration from their guards, but rather the deep ball, which Martin is more than capable of guarding.
Put Harris on Abrams or Augustin, and you'll see plenty of three's set up by dribble penetration.
As opposed to?
Akeem Wright and Blake Young
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Size, rebounding, and experience.
Martin, if he's a legit 6'8" (questionable) is only 2" taller than Wright, and still shorter than Durant. Wright is a better rebounder than Martin; in fact, Wright is statistically the best rebounder on the team. And experience? Do you really think the transition to post D would be tough on Wright? If he struggled down there, it would be because of being physically outmatched, not lack of experience. Besides, like I said before, Martin is a poor post defender. Poor. Plus, we would rather have Wright in foul trouble than Martin (though neither is preferable, of course).
Way to ignore the bulk of my post. They aren't playing a freaking game of one-on-one. Even if Wright could hold Durant to slightly fewer points, I'd put Martin on Durant.
Look at UT's starters:
Durant: 6'9", 23.5 ppg
James: 6'7", 6.9 ppg
Mason: 6'2", 9.8 ppg, 43% 3FG
Abrams: 5'10", 16.5 ppg, 44% 3FG
Augustin: 5'10", 13.7 ppg, 46% 3FG
Assume a starting lineup of:
Bennett 7-3
Martin 6-8 (even though he won't start, you seem obsessed w/Martin vs. Wright)
Wright 6-6
Harris 6-5
Stewart 6-4
Let's say you put Wright (without a doubt our best perimeter defender) on Durant. All of a sudden Martin is guarding a 6-2 guard shooting 43% from 3, and Stewart and Harris (our worst perimeter defender) are guarding smaller, quicker guards that can penetrate and shoot lights out from 3.
Hooray! We held Durant to 22. :banana:
Oh, wait, Augustin/Abrams shoot lights and combine for 35 out because we wasted our best perimeter player so we could slow down someone we had no chance of shutting down in the first place.
Now, let's say we put Hoskins/Martin on Durant. Durant goes crazy and gets his 30, but Wright completely shuts down Abram and Young and Stewart harass and are able to limit Augustin somewhat. Harris/Mason is a MUCH better matchup than Martin-Hoskins/Mason.
Basically, to summarize:
How the matchups, outside of Afellonnet, work out for us:
Durant: Wright > Martin
Mason: Martin <<< Harris
Abrams & Augustin: Stewart & Harris <<<<<<<<<< Wright & Stewart
I think we'll see Wright on the best guard. He's shown he can really bother smaller, quicker guards. Sometimes you have to pick your battles - just assume you're going to lose the battle with Durant either way and concentrate on taking advantage of your possible mismatch on the perimeter.
I say we shut down everybody else on the team. Try and make one guy beat us instead of nine.
:love: :love: :love:
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I guess I'm also not real worried about drive penetration from their guards, but rather the deep ball, which Martin is more than capable of guarding.
Put Harris on Abrams or Augustin, and you'll see plenty of three's set up by dribble penetration.
Not worrying about Augustin penetrating would be a really bad mistake.
Really bad.
I think Rusty has got it right in this thread.
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If Augustin can't be stopped from shooting outside or penetrating, we're screwed anyway, and this entire conversation is moot.
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If Augustin can't be stopped from shooting outside or penetrating, we're screwed anyway, and this entire conversation is moot.
THAT'S WHY YOU PUT AKEEM WRIGHT ON HIM.
:banghead:
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i agree with "kougs" that wright can defend in the post. but i agree with rusty and fan that you need to pick your battles, and wright is more valuable on the perimeter. i can understand the rational of sticking him on augustin, but i´d like to see him on abrams.
abrams scares me, the thing with him is that he has incredible range and a quick release. you need a really dedicated defender on him to get out on him at 25-26 feet. i think wright has the mentality to do that, and with his length, could really bother him. the only other guy i would feel good about on him would be young. stewart likes to sag off too much, and i don´t trust harris to defend out that far, or to pick him up in transition.
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If Augustin can't be stopped from shooting outside or penetrating, we're screwed anyway, and this entire conversation is moot.
THAT'S WHY YOU PUT AKEEM WRIGHT ON HIM.
:banghead:
Martin on Durant -> Durant scores 35.
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We better bring a much better defense (than we had last night vs MU) to Austin to have any chance.
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If Augustin can't be stopped from shooting outside or penetrating, we're screwed anyway, and this entire conversation is moot.
THAT'S WHY YOU PUT AKEEM WRIGHT ON HIM.
:banghead:
Martin on Durant -> Durant scores 35.
That would only 2 ppg above his conference average.
http://www.texassports.com/doc_lib/000_stats/mbb/2006_07/big12_stats.htm
*gulp*
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Let's all just agree that Durant is going to get his 25-30 points no matter who we put on him. We can't stop him...period. That being FACT, we need to maximize our match ups on the other 4 Texas players...you know...the ones that we might actually be able to play defense against.
If we want to win, we will have to hold down the non-Durant 4 (see the NU-UT game - Durant still got his, nobody else had much). I'll say the key stat of this game will be....can we hold the other Texas players, combined, to fewer points than Durant scores. For example, if Durant has his 35, the rest of the team has 30. Consequently, regardless of Durant's number, Texas' total points will be at a manageable level (~60-70ish). Thinking along these lines, IMO, provides us with the best chance of winning.
To sum up...take Durant out of the match up discussion...it doesn't matter. What are our best match ups on the other 4?
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If Augustin can't be stopped from shooting outside or penetrating, we're screwed anyway, and this entire conversation is moot.
THAT'S WHY YOU PUT AKEEM WRIGHT ON HIM.
:banghead:
Martin on Durant -> Durant scores 35.
That would only 2 ppg above his conference average.
http://www.texassports.com/doc_lib/000_stats/mbb/2006_07/big12_stats.htm
*gulp*
Ugh, you're right. Dude is sick.
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Consider this. Huggins has shown a willingness to shuffle the lineup for matchups. Harris sucked really badly against MU. I think he will start with Akeem on Durrant because he doesn't want to risk Hoskins getting in foul trouble. I also think he may sit Bennon and go with Wright on Durrant, Hoskins on James, Maybank on Mason, Young on Augustine, and Stewart on Abrams. Huggs will rotate in Martin and Harris and rotate Martin, Hoskins and Wright on Durrant. When Hoskins is out, we'll probably see Bennon guarding James and slacking off to help with Durrant inside.
We may see some zone, I just don't look for Huggs to start that way.
Just an alternative thought.