KSUFans Archives
Sports => Snyder's Electronic Cyber Space World => Topic started by: cireksu on January 06, 2010, 07:35:07 AM
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Is there anyone on the staff that didn't get fired from their last job or Coach under Terry Allen?
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I'd take ku's assistants over ours.
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I'd take ku's assistants over ours.
I was on hold yesterday with 810am when they had Crabby on, but I didn't get in. I was going to ask Crabby to name one staff in the Big 12 that he believes is a clearly worse group of recruiters than KSU.
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Most coaches get fired at some point in time. Just the way things work in coaching. I think the staff is pretty good not great but pretty good. As far as comparing to KSU's staff it's kind of hard to say because KSU has a couple of spots pending. It's not as good as the staff that Snyder first brought in when he came back but of course Ludwig never coached a game and Koenning only stayed one year.
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I'd take ku's assistants over ours.
I'd take every staff in the big 12 over ours (hate to lump Dickey into this but he can't save them). IDEA! What if we force Bill to work with the assistants hand picked by the AD. Like, Bill's still in charge or whatever but he can't hire any old non-recruiting losers to his staff. EVEN BETTER IDEA! We decide who to offer assistant jobs to by message board polling. DISCLAIMER! sd's vote is worth 1,000 regular poster votes to assure our staff is handsome and can recruit the living f^ck out of some high school kids.
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Most coaches get fired at some point in time. Just the way things work in coaching. I think the staff is pretty good not great but pretty good. As far as comparing to KSU's staff it's kind of hard to say because KSU has a couple of spots pending. It's not as good as the staff that Snyder first brought in when he came back but of course Ludwig never coached a game and Koenning only stayed one year.
I struggle to think that anyone we’ll be excited about will take the open spots. I wouldn’t mind Clint Bowen (would absolutely love Doeren, though that’s a complete pipe dream). Even with someone like Bowen, I still put Gill’s staff above Snyd’s. It really wouldn’t even be close. I think the reality is that good coaches/recruiters who aren’t desperate or aren’t on their way out of their current job already, do not want to work for Bill Snyder (which doesn’t mean they don’t respect him or think he’s a super neat coach).
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Most coaches get fired at some point in time. Just the way things work in coaching. I think the staff is pretty good not great but pretty good. As far as comparing to KSU's staff it's kind of hard to say because KSU has a couple of spots pending. It's not as good as the staff that Snyder first brought in when he came back but of course Ludwig never coached a game and Koenning only stayed one year.
I struggle to think that anyone we’ll be excited about will take the open spots. I wouldn’t mind Clint Bowen (would absolutely love Doeren, though that’s a complete pipe dream). Even with someone like Bowen, I still put Gill’s staff above Snyd’s. It really wouldn’t even be close. I think the reality is that good coaches/recruiters who aren’t desperate or aren’t on their way out of their current job already, do not want to work for Bill Snyder (which doesn’t mean they don’t respect him or think he’s a super neat coach).
No one can say enough wonderful things about how wonderful Bill's X's and O's are.
Now, when the conversation turns to whether you'd like to work for the butter vs. margarine guy who won't let you &@#%ing recruit after the Big 12 championship game and will work your dick into the dirt and won't let you see your wife and kids because he never wanted to see his own and cant' imagine why anyone else would....well, the list of applications begins to dwindle.
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I'd take ku's assistants over ours.
I'd take every staff in the big 12 over ours (hate to lump Dickey into this but he can't save them). IDEA! What if we force Bill to work with the assistants hand picked by the AD. Like, Bill's still in charge or whatever but he can't hire any old non-recruiting losers to his staff. EVEN BETTER IDEA! We decide who to offer assistant jobs to by message board polling. DISCLAIMER! sd's vote is worth 1,000 regular poster votes to assure our staff is handsome and can recruit the living f^ck out of some high school kids.
I'm on board with this. I'd give PW like, 10,000 votes.
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Most coaches get fired at some point in time. Just the way things work in coaching. I think the staff is pretty good not great but pretty good. As far as comparing to KSU's staff it's kind of hard to say because KSU has a couple of spots pending. It's not as good as the staff that Snyder first brought in when he came back but of course Ludwig never coached a game and Koenning only stayed one year.
I struggle to think that anyone we’ll be excited about will take the open spots. I wouldn’t mind Clint Bowen (would absolutely love Doeren, though that’s a complete pipe dream). Even with someone like Bowen, I still put Gill’s staff above Snyd’s. It really wouldn’t even be close. I think the reality is that good coaches/recruiters who aren’t desperate or aren’t on their way out of their current job already, do not want to work for Bill Snyder (which doesn’t mean they don’t respect him or think he’s a super neat coach).
I think people on here are just prone to undervalue our staff and over value others. Most all of the coaches at KSU have been at good programs that won a lot of games. Pretty much all of them were also gainfully employed and left jobs at programs that were winning to work for Snyder. The one exception to this and the one I don't agree with is Del but it sounds like he could be changing roles. Had Ludwig not bolted I don't think Del would have been in anything more then an Admin role to begin with.
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Most coaches get fired at some point in time. Just the way things work in coaching. I think the staff is pretty good not great but pretty good. As far as comparing to KSU's staff it's kind of hard to say because KSU has a couple of spots pending. It's not as good as the staff that Snyder first brought in when he came back but of course Ludwig never coached a game and Koenning only stayed one year.
I struggle to think that anyone we’ll be excited about will take the open spots. I wouldn’t mind Clint Bowen (would absolutely love Doeren, though that’s a complete pipe dream). Even with someone like Bowen, I still put Gill’s staff above Snyd’s. It really wouldn’t even be close. I think the reality is that good coaches/recruiters who aren’t desperate or aren’t on their way out of their current job already, do not want to work for Bill Snyder (which doesn’t mean they don’t respect him or think he’s a super neat coach).
I think people on here are just prone to undervalue our staff and over value others. Most all of the coaches at KSU have been at good programs that won a lot of games. Pretty much all of them were also gainfully employed and left jobs at programs that were winning to work for Snyder. The one exception to this and the one I don't agree with is Del but it sounds like he could be changing roles. Had Ludwig not bolted I don't think Del would have been in anything more then an Admin role to begin with.
I don’t value them because (a) they had their shot at ksu the first time around and wrecked a conference championship program and (b) they really didn’t go places and have success. Where did M Smith go? Zona? They didn’t really have success until this year. Joe Bob went to San Diego ST and they sucked then went to ku and ku couldn’t get a pass rush to save its ass while he was there. Del went to San Diego State and they sucked. Rahne was part of the sucking under Prince at KSU. Cosh was getting run out of So Carolina before he came to ksu the first time, then left to go to Maryland and Ralph couldn’t get him out the door quick enough. Mo is just an old, tired man. IIRC, Dimel was a GA at KSU in 04 or 05, after failing at Houston (though he had some success at Wyoming), then went o zona..again, see Michael Smith. I don’t mind Dimel on staff soley because of his connections to Blinn. Vic was desperate for a job after Dabo let him go, though he had success at Clemson and there were rumors about LSU wanting him (though they didn’t have room for him then). Dickey is liteally the only guy who came to KSU for no apparent reason while having success at his previous job (though apparently his wife is from KS). When you look at this f’ing staff….how the hell am I undervaluing it?
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catzacker is a very good message boarder fwiw
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Most coaches get fired at some point in time. Just the way things work in coaching. I think the staff is pretty good not great but pretty good. As far as comparing to KSU's staff it's kind of hard to say because KSU has a couple of spots pending. It's not as good as the staff that Snyder first brought in when he came back but of course Ludwig never coached a game and Koenning only stayed one year.
I struggle to think that anyone we’ll be excited about will take the open spots. I wouldn’t mind Clint Bowen (would absolutely love Doeren, though that’s a complete pipe dream). Even with someone like Bowen, I still put Gill’s staff above Snyd’s. It really wouldn’t even be close. I think the reality is that good coaches/recruiters who aren’t desperate or aren’t on their way out of their current job already, do not want to work for Bill Snyder (which doesn’t mean they don’t respect him or think he’s a super neat coach).
I think people on here are just prone to undervalue our staff and over value others. Most all of the coaches at KSU have been at good programs that won a lot of games. Pretty much all of them were also gainfully employed and left jobs at programs that were winning to work for Snyder. The one exception to this and the one I don't agree with is Del but it sounds like he could be changing roles. Had Ludwig not bolted I don't think Del would have been in anything more then an Admin role to begin with.
I don’t value them because (a) they had their shot at ksu the first time around and wrecked a conference championship program and (b) they really didn’t go places and have success. Where did M Smith go? Zona? They didn’t really have success until this year. Joe Bob went to San Diego ST and they sucked then went to ku and ku couldn’t get a pass rush to save its ass while he was there. Del went to San Diego State and they sucked. Rahne was part of the sucking under Prince at KSU. Cosh was getting run out of So Carolina before he came to ksu the first time, then left to go to Maryland and Ralph couldn’t get him out the door quick enough. Mo is just an old, tired man. IIRC, Dimel was a GA at KSU in 04 or 05, after failing at Houston (though he had some success at Wyoming), then went o zona..again, see Michael Smith. I don’t mind Dimel on staff soley because of his connections to Blinn. Vic was desperate for a job after Dabo let him go, though he had success at Clemson and there were rumors about LSU wanting him (though they didn’t have room for him then). Dickey is liteally the only guy who came to KSU for no apparent reason while having success at his previous job (though apparently his wife is from KS). When you look at this f’ing staff….how the hell am I undervaluing it?
:-[
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When you look at this f’ing staff….how the hell am I undervaluing it?
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Maybe the fact that they took a complete undisciplined ass clown of a team and won 4 conference games :dunno:
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When you look at this f’ing staff….how the hell am I undervaluing it?
Maybe the fact that they took a complete undisciplined ass clown of a team and won 4 conference games :dunno:
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First, just to clarify, you're talking about Snyder’s staff taking over for Prince’s staff and then going 4-4 in conference in their first year not Prince’s staff taking over for Snyder’s staff and gong 4-4 in conference in it’s first year?
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I'm sure that dickey was coming because ludwig asked him to. dickey's too old to do much jumping around though. He's screwed.
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Zacker's hatred of Snyder causes him to overstate things. Ludwig + Vic + Cosh + Dickey was a really damn good core of assistant coaches. Dimel is OK, too.
Of course, Ludwig and Vic are gone, and all the others around them were pretty underwhelming. So, that takes the wind out of the ol' sails. Still, a great hire for the open spot could turn things around a bit. (I don't consider Bowen a very good hire.)
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First, just to clarify, you're talking about Snyder’s staff taking over for Prince’s staff and then going 4-4 in conference in their first year not Prince’s staff taking over for Snyder’s staff and gong 4-4 in conference in it’s first year?
OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!
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catzacker is a very good message boarder fwiw
Sure, if you can read his posts and then remember to cut the negativity in half.
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Most coaches get fired at some point in time. Just the way things work in coaching. I think the staff is pretty good not great but pretty good. As far as comparing to KSU's staff it's kind of hard to say because KSU has a couple of spots pending. It's not as good as the staff that Snyder first brought in when he came back but of course Ludwig never coached a game and Koenning only stayed one year.
I struggle to think that anyone we’ll be excited about will take the open spots. I wouldn’t mind Clint Bowen (would absolutely love Doeren, though that’s a complete pipe dream). Even with someone like Bowen, I still put Gill’s staff above Snyd’s. It really wouldn’t even be close. I think the reality is that good coaches/recruiters who aren’t desperate or aren’t on their way out of their current job already, do not want to work for Bill Snyder (which doesn’t mean they don’t respect him or think he’s a super neat coach).
I think people on here are just prone to undervalue our staff and over value others. Most all of the coaches at KSU have been at good programs that won a lot of games. Pretty much all of them were also gainfully employed and left jobs at programs that were winning to work for Snyder. The one exception to this and the one I don't agree with is Del but it sounds like he could be changing roles. Had Ludwig not bolted I don't think Del would have been in anything more then an Admin role to begin with.
I don’t value them because (a) they had their shot at ksu the first time around and wrecked a conference championship program and (b) they really didn’t go places and have success. Where did M Smith go? Zona? They didn’t really have success until this year. Joe Bob went to San Diego ST and they sucked then went to ku and ku couldn’t get a pass rush to save its ass while he was there. Del went to San Diego State and they sucked. Rahne was part of the sucking under Prince at KSU. Cosh was getting run out of So Carolina before he came to ksu the first time, then left to go to Maryland and Ralph couldn’t get him out the door quick enough. Mo is just an old, tired man. IIRC, Dimel was a GA at KSU in 04 or 05, after failing at Houston (though he had some success at Wyoming), then went o zona..again, see Michael Smith. I don’t mind Dimel on staff soley because of his connections to Blinn. Vic was desperate for a job after Dabo let him go, though he had success at Clemson and there were rumors about LSU wanting him (though they didn’t have room for him then). Dickey is liteally the only guy who came to KSU for no apparent reason while having success at his previous job (though apparently his wife is from KS). When you look at this f’ing staff….how the hell am I undervaluing it?
Compare this to the guys that ku is bringing in then? You put down Arizona but they were more successful 08 then any of the programs ku hired from were in 09. Every coach that Snyder hired from the oustide (except Del whom we agree on) was coaching a bowl team the season before they came to KSU. In ku's case I think maybe one or two were on bowl teams and the rest were coming off losing seasons.
I'm not even saying our staff is a bunch of world beaters but if you're going to tear down our guys and spin everything as negatively as possible then step back and do the same thing for other staffs.
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When you look at this f’ing staff….how the hell am I undervaluing it?
Maybe the fact that they took a complete undisciplined ass clown of a team and won 4 conference games :dunno:
First, just to clarify, you're talking about Snyder’s staff taking over for Prince’s staff and then going 4-4 in conference in their first year not Prince’s staff taking over for Snyder’s staff and gong 4-4 in conference in it’s first year?
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Prince's original staff was pretty sweet.
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(hate to lump Dickey into this but he can't save them).
QFT. We should've tried to bring the entire Utah coaching staff over when we had the chance (minus Ludwig, he's a tard)...
Now we're stuck with Snyd's BFF's.
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Compare this to the guys that ku is bringing in then? You put down Arizona but they were more successful 08 then any of the programs ku hired from were in 09. Every coach that Snyder hired from the oustide (except Del whom we agree on) was coaching a bowl team the season before they came to KSU. In ku's case I think maybe one or two were on bowl teams and the rest were coming off losing seasons.
I'm not even saying our staff is a bunch of world beaters but if you're going to tear down our guys and spin everything as negatively as possible then step back and do the same thing for other staffs.
Wyatt and Mitchell have both been recognized as outstanding recruiters. I don’t know if anyone on our staff has ever been accused of being that. The rest of each school’s staff is somewhat similar, though I’d take Torbush over Cosh, if only because the dude spent time in A&M and is, at least familiar with Texas. Cosh is pretty much worthless in my eyes. Dickey is prolly a better OL coach than JB Grimes, though not sure about his recruiting abilities. Buddy Wyatt is supposed to be a good recruiter, so I’d take him over Mo (although I think Buddy has a terrible track record of being on staffs that end up getting canned…he was on RC’s and Callahan’s staffs and I think I’ve had post or two making fun of this).
IMO, ku’s staff has more balance. Collectively, KSU’s staff sucks and they have, collectively, shown that at ksu previously. Wyatt and Mitchell, were not at ku at the same time on the same staffs. Mitchell was on Glen’s staff, Wyatt on Terry's. So I wouldn’t say that because Mitchell and Wyatt were previously on a ku staff that this time around they wouldn’t be successful (again, collectively you can’t make that assertion). I don’t necessarily have a problem with Dimel given his connections to Blinn and the Houston area. And quite honestly, I don’t necessarily have a big problem with JBC….but in concert with M. Smith, Del Miller, Ricky Rahne, Chris Cosh and Mo, this staff just isn’t that good.
I understand you can’t have a staff that consists of nothing but great smelling, gorgeous looking, recruiting studs…..but we have no balance. But this isn’t a new problem. Snyder has basically had this “balance” problem since the exodus in ’98.
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Compare this to the guys that ku is bringing in then? You put down Arizona but they were more successful 08 then any of the programs ku hired from were in 09. Every coach that Snyder hired from the oustide (except Del whom we agree on) was coaching a bowl team the season before they came to KSU. In ku's case I think maybe one or two were on bowl teams and the rest were coming off losing seasons.
I'm not even saying our staff is a bunch of world beaters but if you're going to tear down our guys and spin everything as negatively as possible then step back and do the same thing for other staffs.
Wyatt and Mitchell have both been recognized as outstanding recruiters. I don’t know if anyone on our staff has ever been accused of being that. The rest of each school’s staff is somewhat similar, though I’d take Torbush over Cosh, if only because the dude spent time in A&M and is, at least familiar with Texas. Cosh is pretty much worthless in my eyes. Dickey is prolly a better OL coach than JB Grimes, though not sure about his recruiting abilities. Buddy Wyatt is supposed to be a good recruiter, so I’d take him over Mo (although I think Buddy has a terrible track record of being on staffs that end up getting canned…he was on RC’s and Callahan’s staffs and I think I’ve had post or two making fun of this).
IMO, ku’s staff has more balance. Collectively, KSU’s staff sucks and they have, collectively, shown that at ksu previously. Wyatt and Mitchell, I do not believe, were on Terry’s staff. Mitchell was on Glen’s staff. So I wouldn’t say that because Mitchell and Wyatt were previously on a ku staff that this time around they wouldn’t be successful (again, collectively you can’t make that assertion). I don’t necessarily have a problem with Dimel given his connections to Blinn and the Houston area. And quite honestly, I don’t necessarily have a big problem with JBC….but in concert with M. Smith, Del Miller, Ricky Rahne, Chris Cosh and Mo, this staff just isn’t that good.
I understand you can’t have a staff that consists of nothing but great smelling, gorgeous looking, recruiting studs…..but we have no balance. But this isn’t a new problem. Snyder has basically had this “balance” problem since the exodus in ’98.
Wyatt was on Terry Allen's staff at ku. The problem with your analysis is that you give the guys from Snyder's old staff all the blame for the two bad seasons and none of the credit for the many good years before those two bad season. At the very least it is a mixed bag though most neutral unbiased people would look at say Del Miller, Micheal Smith, or Mo Lattimores first tenures at KSU under Snyder and say there were on a whole quite successful.
You give credit to Mitchell for being on Mason's staff at ku but none to those guys for being on Snyders staff at KSU? Are you trying to say you rank Mason's tenure at ku above Snyder's at KSU?
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First, just to clarify, you're talking about Snyder’s staff taking over for Prince’s staff and then going 4-4 in conference in their first year not Prince’s staff taking over for Snyder’s staff and gong 4-4 in conference in it’s first year?
OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!
(http://www.ksufans.com/forums/Smileys/ksufans/flamethrower.gif)
^ ^
idiots zacker
:eek:
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Compare this to the guys that ku is bringing in then? You put down Arizona but they were more successful 08 then any of the programs ku hired from were in 09. Every coach that Snyder hired from the oustide (except Del whom we agree on) was coaching a bowl team the season before they came to KSU. In ku's case I think maybe one or two were on bowl teams and the rest were coming off losing seasons.
I'm not even saying our staff is a bunch of world beaters but if you're going to tear down our guys and spin everything as negatively as possible then step back and do the same thing for other staffs.
Wyatt and Mitchell have both been recognized as outstanding recruiters. I don’t know if anyone on our staff has ever been accused of being that. The rest of each school’s staff is somewhat similar, though I’d take Torbush over Cosh, if only because the dude spent time in A&M and is, at least familiar with Texas. Cosh is pretty much worthless in my eyes. Dickey is prolly a better OL coach than JB Grimes, though not sure about his recruiting abilities. Buddy Wyatt is supposed to be a good recruiter, so I’d take him over Mo (although I think Buddy has a terrible track record of being on staffs that end up getting canned…he was on RC’s and Callahan’s staffs and I think I’ve had post or two making fun of this).
IMO, ku’s staff has more balance. Collectively, KSU’s staff sucks and they have, collectively, shown that at ksu previously. Wyatt and Mitchell, I do not believe, were on Terry’s staff. Mitchell was on Glen’s staff. So I wouldn’t say that because Mitchell and Wyatt were previously on a ku staff that this time around they wouldn’t be successful (again, collectively you can’t make that assertion). I don’t necessarily have a problem with Dimel given his connections to Blinn and the Houston area. And quite honestly, I don’t necessarily have a big problem with JBC….but in concert with M. Smith, Del Miller, Ricky Rahne, Chris Cosh and Mo, this staff just isn’t that good.
I understand you can’t have a staff that consists of nothing but great smelling, gorgeous looking, recruiting studs…..but we have no balance. But this isn’t a new problem. Snyder has basically had this “balance” problem since the exodus in ’98.
Wyatt was on Terry Allen's staff at ku. The problem with your analysis is that you give the guys from Snyder's old staff all the blame for the two bad seasons and none of the credit for the many good years before those two bad season. At the very least it is a mixed bag though most neutral unbiased people would look at say Del Miller, Micheal Smith, or Mo Lattimores first tenures at KSU under Snyder and say there were on a whole quite successful.
You give credit to Mitchell for being on Mason's staff at ku but none to those guys for being on Snyders staff at KSU? Are you trying to say you rank Mason's tenure at ku above Snyder's at KSU?
There's really no point arguing with this kid. His only response to any logic is: KSU's recruits/coaches suck. His rabid anti-Snyder view point is completely blind to the success and experience this staff has had at KSU and elsewhere.
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Wyatt was on Terry Allen's staff at ku. The problem with your analysis is that you give the guys from Snyder's old staff all the blame for the two bad seasons and none of the credit for the many good years before those two bad season. At the very least it is a mixed bag though most neutral unbiased people would look at say Del Miller, Micheal Smith, or Mo Lattimores first tenures at KSU under Snyder and say there were on a whole quite successful.
You give credit to Mitchell for being on Mason's staff at ku but none to those guys for being on Snyders staff at KSU? Are you trying to say you rank Mason's tenure at ku above Snyder's at KSU?
No, I’m actually doing the opposite of what you’re saying. I’m not blaming Terry Allen’s tenure on Darryl Wyatt or Glen’s tenure on Mitchell…because they were just one piece of it, whereas with KSU, we have a core group of assistants (JBC, Del, M. Smith, Cosh, Mo, even Rahne) who were part of the decline of KSU football and who are back now.
For example, bobby Elliott sucked because he and the other guys on the staff couldn’t recruit. But people wanted to believe that it was just bobby Elliott. Same goes with Terry Allen. Would it be fair to put Terry Allen’s tenure on Wyatt? Or would it be more fair to blame the fall of KSU football on a collection of people….and if that’s the case, what happens when a majority of those people are back? Unless you want to put the recruiting failures between ’02-05 solely on bobby Elliott, greg Peterson and matt miller. Because that’s what you’d be saying.
Sure, Del and Mo were here when ksu was good, but, imo, ksu’s goodness during their tenure has more to do with jim Leavitt, bob stoop, brent venables, and mike stoops than anything they ever did. For example, add Wyatt, Mitchell, and Buddy Wyatt to KSU’s staff and take out Del, Mo, and Rahne, and I’d think Snyder had a nice, balanced staff.
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There's really no point arguing with this kid. His only response to any logic is: KSU's recruits/coaches suck. His rabid anti-Snyder view point is completely blind to the success and experience this staff has had at KSU and elsewhere.
Have you even read his posts? He's bringing up excellent points.
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The most impressive thing about Gill, IMO, was that he had his offensive and defensive coordinators selected before he was hired. Long and Torbush both have head coaching experience and have been coordinators in the Big 12 and SEC. Wyatt and Mitchell are very good recruiters, and have a history of bringing in top talent. On paper, I'd say that Gill's assistants are superior to Mangino's.
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Well of either of the Coordinators . . . Carl Torbush is going to have to show me a lot based on his track record over the last few years to convince me he's got things going back in the right direction.
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The most impressive thing about Gill, IMO, was that he had his offensive and defensive coordinators selected before he was hired. Long and Torbush both have head coaching experience and have been coordinators in the Big 12 and SEC. Wyatt and Mitchell are very good recruiters, and have a history of bringing in top talent. On paper, I'd say that Gill's assistants are superior to Mangino's.
I'm just telling you, Warinner was a HUGE loss. WAY bigger than you think. He's ten times better of an OC then Long. Not to mention, Bowen could recruit Kansas like none other.
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There's really no point arguing with this kid. His only response to any logic is: KSU's recruits/coaches suck. His rabid anti-Snyder view point is completely blind to the success and experience this staff has had at KSU and elsewhere.
Have you even read his posts? He's bringing up excellent points.
It's no surprise that you think that way.
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The most impressive thing about Gill, IMO, was that he had his offensive and defensive coordinators selected before he was hired. Long and Torbush both have head coaching experience and have been coordinators in the Big 12 and SEC. Wyatt and Mitchell are very good recruiters, and have a history of bringing in top talent. On paper, I'd say that Gill's assistants are superior to Mangino's.
You know why he was able to have them already selected? Because one was unemployed and the other was one year removed from coaching at freaking Carson-Newman. Sounds like the foundation of one hell of a staff to me... :rofl:
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When you look at this f’ing staff….how the hell am I undervaluing it?
Maybe the fact that they took a complete undisciplined ass clown of a team and won 4 conference games :dunno:
First, just to clarify, you're talking about Snyder’s staff taking over for Prince’s staff and then going 4-4 in conference in their first year not Prince’s staff taking over for Snyder’s staff and gong 4-4 in conference in it’s first year?
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Yes. This staff also reversed 52-21 (one of the low points in the abysmal history of KSU football) to 17-10.
You guys get so caught up in Jeremey Crabtree's player ratings. How do you explain Navy humiliating Mizzou? Does Navy have great recruiters? Has KSU ever in the history of Rivals rankings had a class ranked higher than A&M? What do you think the average difference in Rivals rankings have been over the last 5 years between A&M and KSU? I'm guessing in the neighborhood of 30. How do you explain the beat down KSU put on them this year? Why had Notre Dame sucked for the last decade?
Answer: College football recruiting is a crap shoot. Obviously there are the Mannings, and Adrian Peterson's that are can't miss but below that tier there are a bunch of kids lumped together that may or may not turn into good/great players at the college level. It is much different than basketball recruiting because the basketball recruits play each other several times in AAU competition. Recruiters and scouting services can see players play against each other. In football the competition is often very lopsided. There is rarely a time when the best players in the nation play each other. NFL teams spend millions of dollars scouting college players for each years draft and you still see guys like Glen Dorsey, Ryan Leaf, Ryan Sims, etc, etc drafted high in the first round. And they get to see guys play against each other in college, they still don't get it right over half of the time.
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You guys get so caught up in Jeremey Crabtree's player ratings. How do you explain Navy humiliating Mizzou? Does Navy have great recruiters? Has KSU ever in the history of Rivals rankings had a class ranked higher than A&M? What do you think the average difference in Rivals rankings have been over the last 5 years between A&M and KSU? I'm guessing in the neighborhood of 30. How do you explain the beat down KSU put on them this year? Why had Notre Dame sucked for the last decade?
Answer: College football recruiting is a crap shoot. Obviously there are the Mannings, and Adrian Peterson's that are can't miss but below that tier there are a bunch of kids lumped together that may or may not turn into good/great players at the college level. It is much different than basketball recruiting because the basketball recruits play each other several times in AAU competition. Recruiters and scouting services can see players play against each other. In football the competition is often very lopsided. There is rarely a time when the best players in the nation play each other. NFL teams spend millions of dollars scouting college players for each years draft and you still see guys like Glen Dorsey, Ryan Leaf, Ryan Sims, etc, etc drafted high in the first round. And they get to see guys play against each other in college, they still don't get it right over half of the time.
This is bullsh1t. Naming a handful of kids that didn't pan out or that exceeded expectations doesn't change the fact that the recruiting team rankings line up with exceptional correlation to standings at the end of the season. Look at the two teams playing in the NC game. They've recruited the living f^ck out of some five star kids the last four years. And, it doesn't just line up at the top. Look at the top 25 teams in rivals recruiting rankings the last 4 or 5 seasons. There are always going to be outliers but there is not better guage of upcoming success than recruiting rankings.
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When you look at this f’ing staff….how the hell am I undervaluing it?
Maybe the fact that they took a complete undisciplined ass clown of a team and won 4 conference games :dunno:
First, just to clarify, you're talking about Snyder’s staff taking over for Prince’s staff and then going 4-4 in conference in their first year not Prince’s staff taking over for Snyder’s staff and gong 4-4 in conference in it’s first year?
Yes. This staff also reversed 52-21 (one of the low points in the abysmal history of KSU football) to 17-10.
shouldn't really judge this staff on its ability to beat a 5-7 kansas team at home. But if you want to play that game, Mang reversed 64-0 and 42-6 into 31-28 (against basically the same staff snyder has now).
*SD EDIT TO FIX THE QUOTE FUNCTION THAT WAS ANNOYING THE HELL OUT OF ME
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You guys get so caught up in Jeremey Crabtree's player ratings. How do you explain Navy humiliating Mizzou? Does Navy have great recruiters? Has KSU ever in the history of Rivals rankings had a class ranked higher than A&M? What do you think the average difference in Rivals rankings have been over the last 5 years between A&M and KSU? I'm guessing in the neighborhood of 30. How do you explain the beat down KSU put on them this year? Why had Notre Dame sucked for the last decade?
Answer: College football recruiting is a crap shoot. Obviously there are the Mannings, and Adrian Peterson's that are can't miss but below that tier there are a bunch of kids lumped together that may or may not turn into good/great players at the college level. It is much different than basketball recruiting because the basketball recruits play each other several times in AAU competition. Recruiters and scouting services can see players play against each other. In football the competition is often very lopsided. There is rarely a time when the best players in the nation play each other. NFL teams spend millions of dollars scouting college players for each years draft and you still see guys like Glen Dorsey, Ryan Leaf, Ryan Sims, etc, etc drafted high in the first round. And they get to see guys play against each other in college, they still don't get it right over half of the time.
This is utter bullsh1t. Naming a handful of kids that didn't pan our or that exceeded expectations doesn't change the fact that the recruiting team rankings line up with exceptional correlation to standings at the end of the season. Look at the two teams playing in the NC game. They've recruited the living f^ck out of some five star kids the last four years. And, it doesn't just line up at the top. Look at the top 25 teams in rivals recruiting rankings the last 4 or 5 seasons. There are always going to be outliers but there is not better guage of upcoming success than recruiting rankings.
1 Alabama (58) 13-0 1498
2 Texas (2) 13-0 1425
3 tcu 12-0 1376
4 Cincinnati 12-0 1302
5 Florida 12-1 1253
6 Boise State 13-0 1237
7 Oregon 10-2 1128
8 Ohio State 10-2 1080
9 Georgia Tech 11-2 952
10 Iowa 10-2 925
Have any of the above 4 bolded teams ever had a top 10 Rivals recruiting ranking? Do any have top 25 averages over the last 5 years? What was Navy's recruting rankings over the 5 years?
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When you look at this f’ing staff….how the hell am I undervaluing it?
Maybe the fact that they took a complete undisciplined ass clown of a team and won 4 conference games :dunno:
First, just to clarify, you're talking about Snyder’s staff taking over for Prince’s staff and then going 4-4 in conference in their first year not Prince’s staff taking over for Snyder’s staff and gong 4-4 in conference in it’s first year?
Yes. This staff also reversed 52-21 (one of the low points in the abysmal history of KSU football) to 17-10.
shouldn't really judge this staff on its ability to beat a 5-7 kansas team at home. But if you want to play that game, Mang reversed 64-0 and 42-6 into 31-28 (against basically the same staff snyder has now).
*SD EDIT TO FIX THE QUOTE FUNCTION THAT WAS ANNOYING THE HELL OUT OF ME
I thought you were comparing Prince's staff to this staff not Mangino's. If I recall correctly that Mangino staff (w/ Bill Young) went 12-1 one year and won an Orange Bowl. That comparison would be a closer call definately. Both good, but not great staffs.
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You guys get so caught up in Jeremey Crabtree's player ratings. How do you explain Navy humiliating Mizzou? Does Navy have great recruiters? Has KSU ever in the history of Rivals rankings had a class ranked higher than A&M? What do you think the average difference in Rivals rankings have been over the last 5 years between A&M and KSU? I'm guessing in the neighborhood of 30. How do you explain the beat down KSU put on them this year? Why had Notre Dame sucked for the last decade?
Answer: College football recruiting is a crap shoot. Obviously there are the Mannings, and Adrian Peterson's that are can't miss but below that tier there are a bunch of kids lumped together that may or may not turn into good/great players at the college level. It is much different than basketball recruiting because the basketball recruits play each other several times in AAU competition. Recruiters and scouting services can see players play against each other. In football the competition is often very lopsided. There is rarely a time when the best players in the nation play each other. NFL teams spend millions of dollars scouting college players for each years draft and you still see guys like Glen Dorsey, Ryan Leaf, Ryan Sims, etc, etc drafted high in the first round. And they get to see guys play against each other in college, they still don't get it right over half of the time.
This is utter bullsh1t. Naming a handful of kids that didn't pan our or that exceeded expectations doesn't change the fact that the recruiting team rankings line up with exceptional correlation to standings at the end of the season. Look at the two teams playing in the NC game. They've recruited the living f^ck out of some five star kids the last four years. And, it doesn't just line up at the top. Look at the top 25 teams in rivals recruiting rankings the last 4 or 5 seasons. There are always going to be outliers but there is not better guage of upcoming success than recruiting rankings.
1 Alabama (58) 13-0 1498
2 Texas (2) 13-0 1425
3 tcu 12-0 1376
4 Cincinnati 12-0 1302
5 Florida 12-1 1253
6 Boise State 13-0 1237
7 Oregon 10-2 1128
8 Ohio State 10-2 1080
9 Georgia Tech 11-2 952
10 Iowa 10-2 925
Have any of the above 4 bolded teams ever had a top 10 Rivals recruiting ranking? Do any have top 25 averages over the last 5 years? What was Navy's recruting rankings over the 5 years?
Just so you know, those 4 teams have a combined (2) AP top 10 finishes in the last 20 years, so that kind of goes along with what steve dave is saying - recruiting rankings are a pretty good indicator of success.
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You guys get so caught up in Jeremey Crabtree's player ratings. How do you explain Navy humiliating Mizzou? Does Navy have great recruiters? Has KSU ever in the history of Rivals rankings had a class ranked higher than A&M? What do you think the average difference in Rivals rankings have been over the last 5 years between A&M and KSU? I'm guessing in the neighborhood of 30. How do you explain the beat down KSU put on them this year? Why had Notre Dame sucked for the last decade?
Answer: College football recruiting is a crap shoot. Obviously there are the Mannings, and Adrian Peterson's that are can't miss but below that tier there are a bunch of kids lumped together that may or may not turn into good/great players at the college level. It is much different than basketball recruiting because the basketball recruits play each other several times in AAU competition. Recruiters and scouting services can see players play against each other. In football the competition is often very lopsided. There is rarely a time when the best players in the nation play each other. NFL teams spend millions of dollars scouting college players for each years draft and you still see guys like Glen Dorsey, Ryan Leaf, Ryan Sims, etc, etc drafted high in the first round. And they get to see guys play against each other in college, they still don't get it right over half of the time.
This is utter bullsh1t. Naming a handful of kids that didn't pan our or that exceeded expectations doesn't change the fact that the recruiting team rankings line up with exceptional correlation to standings at the end of the season. Look at the two teams playing in the NC game. They've recruited the living f^ck out of some five star kids the last four years. And, it doesn't just line up at the top. Look at the top 25 teams in rivals recruiting rankings the last 4 or 5 seasons. There are always going to be outliers but there is not better guage of upcoming success than recruiting rankings.
1 Alabama (58) 13-0 1498
2 Texas (2) 13-0 1425
3 tcu 12-0 1376
4 Cincinnati 12-0 1302
5 Florida 12-1 1253
6 Boise State 13-0 1237
7 Oregon 10-2 1128
8 Ohio State 10-2 1080
9 Georgia Tech 11-2 952
10 Iowa 10-2 925
Have any of the above 4 bolded teams ever had a top 10 Rivals recruiting ranking? Do any have top 25 averages over the last 5 years? What was Navy's recruting rankings over the 5 years?
Just so you know, those 4 teams have a combined (2) AP top 10 finishes in the last 20 years, so that kind of goes along with what steve dave is saying - recruiting rankings are a pretty good indicator of success.
It is pretty accurate to say that Texas, Alabama, Florida, USC, Oklahoma, and Ohio State will be good every year and have high recruiting ratings every year. That is driven by the fact that those teams get the can't misses I mentioned above (Manning, Peterson, Bush, etc). All of the other teams, for the most part, are left with the players that are much more difficult to evaluate making the recruiting rankings below the top tier near meaningless.
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it isn't like the theory that "rankings don't matter" makes a case for snyder's current staff. if anything it means that (a) this staff can't recruit - based on the ratings and (b) if (a) doesn't matter and it's pure evluation then they still suck because the core of this staff has basically been around since '02 -which was the start or just after the start in the decline in bringing in quality players regardless of their rankings and led to 2 straigt losing seasons coming off 5 of 6 11 win seasons and a conference championship.
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You guys get so caught up in Jeremey Crabtree's player ratings. How do you explain Navy humiliating Mizzou? Does Navy have great recruiters? Has KSU ever in the history of Rivals rankings had a class ranked higher than A&M? What do you think the average difference in Rivals rankings have been over the last 5 years between A&M and KSU? I'm guessing in the neighborhood of 30. How do you explain the beat down KSU put on them this year? Why had Notre Dame sucked for the last decade?
Answer: College football recruiting is a crap shoot. Obviously there are the Mannings, and Adrian Peterson's that are can't miss but below that tier there are a bunch of kids lumped together that may or may not turn into good/great players at the college level. It is much different than basketball recruiting because the basketball recruits play each other several times in AAU competition. Recruiters and scouting services can see players play against each other. In football the competition is often very lopsided. There is rarely a time when the best players in the nation play each other. NFL teams spend millions of dollars scouting college players for each years draft and you still see guys like Glen Dorsey, Ryan Leaf, Ryan Sims, etc, etc drafted high in the first round. And they get to see guys play against each other in college, they still don't get it right over half of the time.
This is utter bullsh1t. Naming a handful of kids that didn't pan our or that exceeded expectations doesn't change the fact that the recruiting team rankings line up with exceptional correlation to standings at the end of the season. Look at the two teams playing in the NC game. They've recruited the living f^ck out of some five star kids the last four years. And, it doesn't just line up at the top. Look at the top 25 teams in rivals recruiting rankings the last 4 or 5 seasons. There are always going to be outliers but there is not better guage of upcoming success than recruiting rankings.
1 Alabama (58) 13-0 1498
2 Texas (2) 13-0 1425
3 tcu 12-0 1376
4 Cincinnati 12-0 1302
5 Florida 12-1 1253
6 Boise State 13-0 1237
7 Oregon 10-2 1128
8 Ohio State 10-2 1080
9 Georgia Tech 11-2 952
10 Iowa 10-2 925
Have any of the above 4 bolded teams ever had a top 10 Rivals recruiting ranking? Do any have top 25 averages over the last 5 years? What was Navy's recruting rankings over the 5 years?
Just so you know, those 4 teams have a combined (2) AP top 10 finishes in the last 20 years, so that kind of goes along with what steve dave is saying - recruiting rankings are a pretty good indicator of success.
It is pretty accurate to say that Texas, Alabama, Florida, USC, Oklahoma, and Ohio State will be good every year and have high recruiting ratings every year. That is driven by the fact that those teams get the can't misses I mentioned above (Manning, Peterson, Bush, etc). All of the other teams, for the most part, are left with the players that are much more difficult to evaluate making the recruiting rankings below the top tier near meaningless.
WTF. Look at the Rivals Top 25 recruiting rankings from the last 8 years. It's a who's who of teams that consistently go to bowls and sometimes go to great bowls (oviosuly the top teams in the recruiting rankings more often go to the great bowls). Now look at the 3rd and 4th page of the rankings and tell me what you see. It's a bunch of Sun Belt teams and the sh1ttiest BCS conference teams. Recruiting rankings are pretty much the only thing out there that can consistently predict the success of a program. Obviously there are outliers (usually from sh1tty conferences because someone has to be the best WAC team).
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Disaster hire. :flush:
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You guys get so caught up in Jeremey Crabtree's player ratings. How do you explain Navy humiliating Mizzou? Does Navy have great recruiters? Has KSU ever in the history of Rivals rankings had a class ranked higher than A&M? What do you think the average difference in Rivals rankings have been over the last 5 years between A&M and KSU? I'm guessing in the neighborhood of 30. How do you explain the beat down KSU put on them this year? Why had Notre Dame sucked for the last decade?
Answer: College football recruiting is a crap shoot. Obviously there are the Mannings, and Adrian Peterson's that are can't miss but below that tier there are a bunch of kids lumped together that may or may not turn into good/great players at the college level. It is much different than basketball recruiting because the basketball recruits play each other several times in AAU competition. Recruiters and scouting services can see players play against each other. In football the competition is often very lopsided. There is rarely a time when the best players in the nation play each other. NFL teams spend millions of dollars scouting college players for each years draft and you still see guys like Glen Dorsey, Ryan Leaf, Ryan Sims, etc, etc drafted high in the first round. And they get to see guys play against each other in college, they still don't get it right over half of the time.
This is bullsh1t. Naming a handful of kids that didn't pan out or that exceeded expectations doesn't change the fact that the recruiting team rankings line up with exceptional correlation to standings at the end of the season. Look at the two teams playing in the NC game. They've recruited the living f^ck out of some five star kids the last four years. And, it doesn't just line up at the top. Look at the top 25 teams in rivals recruiting rankings the last 4 or 5 seasons. There are always going to be outliers but there is not better guage of upcoming success than recruiting rankings.
Recruiting rankings are more highly correlated to Rivals memberships than the success of teams. Coaching matters in CFB more than anything. Bama has Saban, UT has Brown, UF has Meyer, and OU has Stoops. ND, UGA, FSU, the U, and Tenn are consistently in the top 10 in recruiting (per Rivals) and haven't done dick in a long time.
Snyd's has put a f*ck load of dudes in the NFL and that's the only way to evaluate the talent of the players recruited. Effort guys don't get drafted b/c effort doesn't make you run faster, turn quicker, or jump higher. Guys that do well at the combine get drafted and last I checked that's not a try hard competition.
The fact we're ranked low per rivals in recruiting this year has everything to do with the low number of the players not the quality of players. It also ignores the highly recruited transfers and grey shirts.
Lastly, to the dumbf*ck complaining about a scholly given to a grey shirt rather than some JuCo LB, my god you're dense. That has to be the single most pathetic asinine reason to complain I've ever heard of. You are a moron
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who needs 4* LB's? KSU doesn't. They've got ginger power.
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thanks you dk! atleast someone else has some sense! :beerchug:
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If I was Gill, I would start a cooking show on TV. It would be called "Gill's Grill." I would invite all of the KC BBQ masters on to share a bit of their craft. The set would have a big sign that says "Gill's Grill." I'd be all like, "Hey, I'm Gill. This is my grill. Don't get up in my grill. But please cook on my grill." So, do stars matter or what?
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well, i've seen this thread before.
has n e 1 seen zacker on the hoops forum?
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For all of the Jeremy Crabtree worshippers:
Almost 2/3rds of the latest 2009 AP Poll (pre bowl games) had average Rivals Rankings that fell outside of the Top 25. Most by a ridiculously wide margin.
Over half of the 2008/2009 Final AP Top 25 had average Rivals Rankings that fell outside of the Top 25 using 2006-2008 Rivals Rankings.
Those that had high AP to Rivals correlations are pretty obvious: Florida, Alabama, Texas, Ohio St. (OU and USC for 2008). All other teams....not so much.
But please don't let this get in the way of the Crabtree/Super Recruiter Assistant Coach talk.
AP Rank Rivals Final Rank
2008* 2009** Team 2006 2007 2008 2009 2 Yr Avg 4 Yr Avg 06-08
6 1 Alabama 8 15 6 5 6 9 10
4 2 Texas 9 5 10 3 7 7 8
7 3 tcu 49 55 73 31 52 52 59
17 4 Cinn 114 76 74 66 70 83 88
1 5 Florida 2 2 4 1 3 2 3
11 6 Boise 74 78 72 62 67 72 75
10 7 Oregon 43 17 15 42 29 29 25
9 8 Ohio St. 10 4 3 7 5 6 6
22 9 G-Tech 40 14 49 43 46 37 34
8 10 Penn St. 38 33 53 70 62 49 41
20 11 Iowa 7 21 32 63 48 31 20
15 12 Va Tech 27 43 24 26 25 30 31
13 LSU 5 3 9 6 8 6 6
14 Miami 15 19 14 11 13 15 16
25 15 BYU 85 59 55 46 51 61 66
18 16 Ore. St. 47 56 44 60 52 52 49
17 Pitt 23 26 20 41 31 28 23
23 18 W. Va. 45 32 56 27 42 40 44
19 Stanford 56 50 47 19 33 43 51
20 Nebraska 18 13 34 21 28 22 22
16 21 Okie St. 25 25 28 37 33 29 26
22 Arizona 17 44 35 38 37 34 32
2 23 Utah 57 65 43 48 46 53 55
24 Wisc. 39 24 40 31 36 34 34
25 C. Mich 99 113 106 87 97 101 106
13 18 Teams in Final AP Top 25 with Final Rivals Average Ranking Below 25
52% 72% % of Teams in Final AP Top 25 with Final Rivals Average Rankings
Below 25
*2 of the 8 teams not in Final 2008/2009 AP rankings had a Rivals below the Top 25
**Pre Bowl AP Rankings
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what is your point?
snyder hasn't been to a bowl game in his last three seasons. he hasn't been recruiting well.
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yeah, DFL 3 years running.
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what is your point?
snyder hasn't been to a bowl game in his last three seasons. he hasn't been recruiting well.
2 points:
1) It is silly to bag on the job the KSU staff did this year. The Mizzou game was a debacle but other than that the team exceeded expectations.
2) Rivals rankings are crap and are not any kind of indicator on how a team will perform during the season. It is not hard to rate recruits that commit to Florida, Alabama, Texas very high and then talk about what a great indicator the recruiting rankings are.
If KSU doesn't win 7+ games in 2010 I will join the bag on Old Balls bandwagon. Until then I see 2004 and 2005 being the outliers instead of the 11 straight bowl seasons.
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For all of the Jeremy Crabtree worshippers:
Almost 2/3rds of the latest 2009 AP Poll (pre bowl games) had average Rivals Rankings that fell outside of the Top 25. Most by a ridiculously wide margin.
Over half of the 2008/2009 Final AP Top 25 had average Rivals Rankings that fell outside of the Top 25 using 2006-2008 Rivals Rankings.
Those that had high AP to Rivals correlations are pretty obvious: Florida, Alabama, Texas, Ohio St. (OU and USC for 2008). All other teams....not so much.
But please don't let this get in the way of the Crabtree/Super Recruiter Assistant Coach talk.
AP Rank Rivals Final Rank
2008* 2009** 2006 2007 2008 2009 2 Yr 4 06-08
6 1 Alabama 8 15 6 5 6 9 10
4 2 Texas 9 5 10 3 7 7 8
7 3 tcu 49 55 73 31 52 52 59
17 4 Cinn 114 76 74 66 70 83 88
1 5 Florida 2 2 4 1 3 2 3
11 6 Boise 74 78 72 62 67 72 75
10 7 Oregon 43 17 15 42 29 29 25
9 8 Ohio St. 10 4 3 7 5 6 6
22 9 G-Tech 40 14 49 43 46 37 34
8 10 Penn St. 38 33 53 70 62 49 41
20 11 Iowa 7 21 32 63 48 31 20
15 12 Va Tech 27 43 24 26 25 30 31
13 LSU 5 3 9 6 8 6 6
14 Miami 15 19 14 11 13 15 16
25 15 BYU 85 59 55 46 51 61 66
18 16 Ore. St. 47 56 44 60 52 52 49
17 Pitt 23 26 20 41 31 28 23
23 18 W. Va. 45 32 56 27 42 40 44
19 Stanford 56 50 47 19 33 43 51
20 Nebraska 18 13 34 21 28 22 22
16 21 Okie St. 25 25 28 37 33 29 26
22 Arizona 17 44 35 38 37 34 32
2 23 Utah 57 65 43 48 46 53 55
24 Wisc. 39 24 40 31 36 34 34
25 C. Mich 99 113 106 87 97 101 106
13 18 Teams in Final AP Top 25 with Final Rivals Average Ranking Below 25
52% 72% % of Teams in Final AP Top 25 with Final Rivals Average Rankings
Below 25
*2 of the 8 teams not in Final 2008/2009 AP rankings had a Rivals below the Top 25
**Pre Bowl AP Rankings
A couple problems here:
1) The top 25 recruiters from 2006-2008 won't necessarily have average rankings of 25 or better. To truly get an accurate list, you would have to take everyone's averages, and then rank the top 25 averages. Notice how no one over that time has an average of 1 - the best recruiting team will have an average of 3 or so (I'm guessing it's Florida). The same principle holds all the way to #25.
2) Even then, with 120 division 1 schools, 19 of the 50 top 25 teams over 2 years had an average of 25 or better. If you make it into that group, you have a 38% chance of finishing in the top 25 (assuming the top 25 all were ranked 25 or better, which is not the case). There were 190 teams not ranked 25 or better, and 31 made it into the top 25 over 2 years. That's a 16% chance of a non-top 25 recruiting team making it into the top 25.
Recruiting ranking of 25 or better: 38% chance of making it into the top 25
Recruiting ranking of 26 or worse: 16% chance of making it into the top 25
Yeah, looks like stars don't matter at all.
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1) It is silly to bag on the job the KSU staff did this year. The Mizzou game was a debacle but other than that the team exceeded expectations.
In no way did losing to LaLa exceed my expectations. Inexcusable.
2) Rivals rankings are crap and are not any kind of indicator on how a team will perform during the season. It is not hard to rate recruits that commit to Florida, Alabama, Texas very high and then talk about what a great indicator the recruiting rankings are.
It's been shown over and over again.
As recruiting takes over the landscape to an even greater extent than usual over the next week or so, we should also see the annual barrage of "snake oil" articles scoffing at the rankings that draw larger and larger audiences every year. In fact, they're already coming this year.
I was in this camp for a long time. One of the running ideas I had at my old site, actually, was to review old recruiting rankings and ruthlessly mock them for being so woefully off-base. Except that every time I tried, I ran into a wall: There were always as many (and usually more) players who "made it" among the top prospects as there were busts. Unlike some people, I find arguing "Recruiting rankings are stupid because Rhett Bomar" more than a little disingenuous; ditto "Recruiting rankings are stupid because Utah."
You can do anything you want anecdotally, especially with a subject as chicken-and-egg as recruiting. But I've become a believer over the last couple years because of the numbers -- that is, all of the numbers. Rivals, for example, uses a formula (no, I don't know the formula) to assign every team in the country a total score for its overall class every year, usually ranging from about 200 on the low end to just shy of 3,000 for the USCs and Floridas of the world. Here is each BCS conference team's total score for the last five years (the sum of the scores from 2004-2008). And here are those same five-year sums distributed according to overall winning percentage over the same period:
(http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh193/stevedaveksu/ept_sports_ncaaf_experts-470351640-.jpg)
For all the hits and misses, the big trend is clear, and speaks for itself: The average winning percentage steadily increases in lockstep with increased recruiting points. The 15 or 20 teams that separate themselves on an annual basis have no chance of a losing record over any sustained period of time; the bottom fifth or so, obviously, is more likely to come out below .500.
Remember, though, that that graph is of overall records, including mid-major and I-AA patticakes that even the worst BCS conference teams typically out-recruit. Without that kind of context, the big picture can be a bit of a mess because of wildly varying schedules and other inconsistencies that wreck head-to-head comparisons; SEC teams, for example, are clustered at the top of the rankings every year, and Big East teams clustered at the bottom where the BCS conferences are concerned, and since these teams mainly play within their conferences, overachievers and underachievers are inevitable (somebody has to win the Big East). To get a more detailed of look, I took the same five-year point totals from Rivals and applied them to all 332 games last year between teams from BCS conferences, broken down here according to how far apart the two teams in each game were in the rankings:
(http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh193/stevedaveksu/ept_sports_ncaaf_experts-80796223-1.jpg)
Bottom line: Based on the recruiting rankings of the last five years, the "more talented" team according to the gurus won almost two-thirds of the time in 2008, by a little more than a touchdown per game. Just as importantly, the difference became more obvious as the gap widened, exactly as you'd expect if the rankings are worth anything at all.
There was virtually no difference between teams that recruited within 2,000 points of one another over the preceding five years (or less than 400 points apart per year); as you might expect, the rankings weren't very useful for parsing talent gaps that small with so many other factors in play, and teams that found themselves bunched closely together in the rankings were generally in the same situation when they went head-to-head on the field.
At that point, though, the class differences become too wide bridge, and the higher-ranked teams begin to dominate. Teams that brought in an annual 400-1,000-point advantage over their opponent on any given weekend won two-thirds of the time last year, by 10 points per game; teams that "out-recruited" the opposing sideline by at least 5,000 points from 2004-08 won a whopping three-fourths of the time, by more than two touchdowns. In other words, for every Oregon State over USC and Ole Miss over Florida, there were three cases of Oklahoma over Baylor, LSU over Mississippi State and Ohio State over Northwestern. But you knew that.
So the rankings are definitely not precise enough to predict the national championship (or, unless you're talking about USC, even most conference championships). But they are especially good at grouping programs into classes that tend to hold up over time. They establish the ceiling and floor of a program's potential: If your team isn't a top-10 recruiter over at least a three or four-year period, it's not going to be carrying off any crystal footballs, either.
A generalization, yes, but as far as generalizations go, it's solid enough to set an informed baseline for expectations until there are specific reasons to think otherwise. If you ask any prediction to do more than that, you probably lead a very disappointed life.
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who needs 4* LB's? KSU doesn't. They've got ginger power.
Probably not the best point to make, 4* LBs have not been kind to us in quite some time. Ulla, Smoke, Simmons, etc. :yuck: But I would still much rather have 4*s on the roster than 3s and 2s. Totally OT, but I noticed (while trying to remember which of our 4* lbs have totally sucked ass) that Diles was a 0* LB. Wow, a lot of people really dropped the ball on his evals.
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For all of the Jeremy Crabtree worshippers:
Almost 2/3rds of the latest 2009 AP Poll (pre bowl games) had average Rivals Rankings that fell outside of the Top 25. Most by a ridiculously wide margin.
Over half of the 2008/2009 Final AP Top 25 had average Rivals Rankings that fell outside of the Top 25 using 2006-2008 Rivals Rankings.
Those that had high AP to Rivals correlations are pretty obvious: Florida, Alabama, Texas, Ohio St. (OU and USC for 2008). All other teams....not so much.
But please don't let this get in the way of the Crabtree/Super Recruiter Assistant Coach talk.
AP Rank Rivals Final Rank
2008* 2009** 2006 2007 2008 2009 2 Yr 4 06-08
6 1 Alabama 8 15 6 5 6 9 10
4 2 Texas 9 5 10 3 7 7 8
7 3 tcu 49 55 73 31 52 52 59
17 4 Cinn 114 76 74 66 70 83 88
1 5 Florida 2 2 4 1 3 2 3
11 6 Boise 74 78 72 62 67 72 75
10 7 Oregon 43 17 15 42 29 29 25
9 8 Ohio St. 10 4 3 7 5 6 6
22 9 G-Tech 40 14 49 43 46 37 34
8 10 Penn St. 38 33 53 70 62 49 41
20 11 Iowa 7 21 32 63 48 31 20
15 12 Va Tech 27 43 24 26 25 30 31
13 LSU 5 3 9 6 8 6 6
14 Miami 15 19 14 11 13 15 16
25 15 BYU 85 59 55 46 51 61 66
18 16 Ore. St. 47 56 44 60 52 52 49
17 Pitt 23 26 20 41 31 28 23
23 18 W. Va. 45 32 56 27 42 40 44
19 Stanford 56 50 47 19 33 43 51
20 Nebraska 18 13 34 21 28 22 22
16 21 Okie St. 25 25 28 37 33 29 26
22 Arizona 17 44 35 38 37 34 32
2 23 Utah 57 65 43 48 46 53 55
24 Wisc. 39 24 40 31 36 34 34
25 C. Mich 99 113 106 87 97 101 106
13 18 Teams in Final AP Top 25 with Final Rivals Average Ranking Below 25
52% 72% % of Teams in Final AP Top 25 with Final Rivals Average Rankings
Below 25
*2 of the 8 teams not in Final 2008/2009 AP rankings had a Rivals below the Top 25
**Pre Bowl AP Rankings
A couple problems here:
1) The top 25 recruiters from 2006-2008 won't necessarily have average rankings of 25 or better. To truly get an accurate list, you would have to take everyone's averages, and then rank the top 25 averages. Notice how no one over that time has an average of 1 - the best recruiting team will have an average of 3 or so (I'm guessing it's Florida). The same principle holds all the way to #25.
2) Even then, with 120 division 1 schools, 19 of the 50 top 25 teams over 2 years had an average of 25 or better. If you make it into that group, you have a 38% chance of finishing in the top 25 (assuming the top 25 all were ranked 25 or better, which is not the case). There were 190 teams not ranked 25 or better, and 31 made it into the top 25 over 2 years. That's a 16% chance of a non-top 25 recruiting team making it into the top 25.
Recruiting ranking of 25 or better: 38% chance of making it into the top 25
Recruiting ranking of 26 or worse: 16% chance of making it into the top 25
Yeah, looks like stars don't matter at all.
The problem with your analysis is all the non BCS schools that are d-1. It is rare for them to have a top 25 class and it is rare for them to be ranked in the top 25. So they have a huge impact on that 16% number you throw out. I'm not a stats guy and I'm not going to take the time to calculate it but I would even argue they account for almost all of that difference.
Recruiting rankings do matter to a point but it is also pretty obvious they are not the be all and end all to success. Some teams and coaches have shown they can have success without top rated classes. In the past Snyder has proven to be one of those coaches time will tell if he can do it again or not.
The argument about his last two season that some are bringing up actually speaks against the validity of recruiting rankings because he had a couple his highest rated recruiting classes prior to that downfall.
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The problem with your analysis is all the non BCS schools that are d-1. It is rare for them to have a top 25 class and it is rare for them to be ranked in the top 25. So they have a huge impact on that 16% number you throw out. I'm not a stats guy and I'm not going to take the time to calculate it but I would even argue they account for almost all of that difference.
OK, take out the non-BCS:
There were 80 non-top 25 classes in the BCS over 2 years, and 22 of those teams made the top 25. Still just 27%. If you actually rank the top 25 recruiters over that year like I mentioned, the gap will definitely widen.
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The argument about his last two season that some are bringing up actually speaks against the validity of recruiting rankings because he had a couple his highest rated recruiting classes prior to that downfall.
Some of those players who made those classes so highly rated never ended up making it to campus. I believe rankings are an indicator of talent on the roster, but I judge a staff’s ability based on the final product (even snyds says “won’t know how good the class is until 4 years later”, and I agree with this). The final two years were a culmination of life after the ’98 exodus. We went from having Ben Leber type players as back ups to having Matt Butler be replaced by Ted freaking Sims.
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The argument about his last two season that some are bringing up actually speaks against the validity of recruiting rankings because he had a couple his highest rated recruiting classes prior to that downfall.
Some of those players who made those classes so highly rated never ended up making it to campus. I believe rankings are an indicator of talent on the roster, but I judge a staff’s ability based on the final product (even snyds says “won’t know how good the class is until 4 years later”, and I agree with this). The final two years were a culmination of life after the ’98 exodus. We went from having Ben Leber type players as back ups to having Matt Butler be replaced by Ted freaking Sims.
Overrating juco's also skews the numbers. I'm pretty sure Matt Boss was the only 4 star HS player from that era that actually made it to campus.
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The argument about his last two season that some are bringing up actually speaks against the validity of recruiting rankings because he had a couple his highest rated recruiting classes prior to that downfall.
Some of those players who made those classes so highly rated never ended up making it to campus. I believe rankings are an indicator of talent on the roster, but I judge a staff’s ability based on the final product (even snyds says “won’t know how good the class is until 4 years later”, and I agree with this). The final two years were a culmination of life after the ’98 exodus. We went from having Ben Leber type players as back ups to having Matt Butler be replaced by Ted freaking Sims.
Sims was pretty decent, especially when flanked by Hickman and Buhl. Loved his CCG performance.
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The most impressive thing about Gill, IMO, was that he had his offensive and defensive coordinators selected before he was hired. Long and Torbush both have head coaching experience and have been coordinators in the Big 12 and SEC. Wyatt and Mitchell are very good recruiters, and have a history of bringing in top talent. On paper, I'd say that Gill's assistants are superior to Mangino's.
You know why he was able to have them already selected? Because one was unemployed and the other was one year removed from coaching at freaking Carson-Newman. Sounds like the foundation of one hell of a staff to me... :rofl:
Bill Cowher is unemployed... doesn't mean the guy can't coach. Long was the offensive coordinator for Oklahoma and coached in two national title games... I'd say the guy qualifies as a decent hire for Kansas. Torbush was Mack Brown's defensive coordinator at UNC and was also head coach at UNC after Brown left. The guy got burned out of coaching, just like what Urban Meyer is going through right now. He resurfaced this year at Mississippi State, who plays in the SEC last time I checked.
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The most impressive thing about Gill, IMO, was that he had his offensive and defensive coordinators selected before he was hired. Long and Torbush both have head coaching experience and have been coordinators in the Big 12 and SEC. Wyatt and Mitchell are very good recruiters, and have a history of bringing in top talent. On paper, I'd say that Gill's assistants are superior to Mangino's.
You know why he was able to have them already selected? Because one was unemployed and the other was one year removed from coaching at freaking Carson-Newman. Sounds like the foundation of one hell of a staff to me... :rofl:
Bill Cowher is unemployed... doesn't mean the guy can't coach. Long was the offensive coordinator for Oklahoma and coached in two national title games... I'd say the guy qualifies as a decent hire for Kansas. Torbush was Mack Brown's defensive coordinator at UNC and was also head coach at UNC after Brown left. The guy got burned out of coaching, just like what Urban Meyer is going through right now. He resurfaced this year at Mississippi State, who plays in the SEC last time I checked.
Are you attempting to compare Bill Cowher (retired) with Chuck Long (fired)? :rolleyes: Torbush has been mediocre at best, everywhere he has been. As far as him being "burned out of college football," you may be right. He did get fired from every job he had at the D1 level. He went from aTm to Carson Newman. He never took a year off, he just couldn't find any other jobs. The second a D1 spot was offered, he took it. And he coached the #58 defense in the country at that SEC school. Warm up the mother &@#%ing banner machines!!!!
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Mack Brown's defenses at UNC were pretty good, and the SEC isn't exactly cupcake city. I'd say Torbush is an upgrade over Clint Bowen.
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ZACKER FTW FOR THE ENTIRE THREAD
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Mack Brown's defenses at UNC were pretty good, and the SEC isn't exactly cupcake city. I'd say Torbush is an upgrade over Clint Bowen.
Not to hard to coach a defense when Mack is bring in Julius Peppers, Der' Bly, Greg Ellis, etc. And the SEC isn't exactly known for prodigious offenses lately either. That #58 defense in the SEC would be lucky to be a top 80 defense playing in the Big 12 most years.
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I'm sure that dickey was coming because ludwig asked him to. dickey's too old to do much jumping around though. He's screwed.
Dickey looks old, but is not....
Arizona was not crappy the last few years....
We won four conference games with talent that said we should have been 1-7....
Not bad coaching for such a horrid staff....
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how old is dickey? My guess is 58?
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how old is dickey? My guess is 58?
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Prob way younger than that. After juco, he played guard at Arizona in 83-84. That makes him like 47ish, right?