KSUFans Archives
Sports => Snyder's Electronic Cyber Space World => Topic started by: michigancat on October 25, 2006, 08:17:23 AM
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Prince firmly set on Freeman
MANHATTAN - In his three starts and change of experience, Kansas State quarterback Josh Freeman has thrown eight interceptions and zero touchdowns. He has completed 40.6 percent of his passes.
Dylan Meier, in his five starts, tossed four interceptions and three touchdowns while completing 50.4 percent of his passes.
Relax, this isn't an attempt to ignite a quarterback controversy.
It wouldn't matter, anyway, because K-State coach Ron Prince has made it perfectly clear there isn't one. And he did so again Tuesday.
"I'm not going to go back and forth and waffle back and forth," Prince said. "It's the kind of thing that is divisive. If the situation comes up where we have a medical issue, I have confidence in Dylan....
"I'm not going to go back and forth. I don't think it's fair to the team."
But what about in the spirit of competition, which Prince has repeatedly hailed as a key to building a championship-caliber team?
Wouldn't it make sense for Meier, the seasoned if unspectacular senior, to be given a legitimate chance to push Freeman, the inexperienced and unquestioned future of the program who acknowledged Tuesday the starting job was his for the foreseeable future?
That was the essence of the question asked of Prince following his news conference Tuesday, and he listened to most of it before quickly responding:
"Those are your words."
It was hastily explained that he'd just said that minutes earlier, but it didn't matter. Prince cut off the explanation.
"It's been very competitive in practice."
He turned his back, seemingly fed up, and a last question was posed to him -- then does Meier have a chance to overtake Freeman, in the spirit of competition?
Silence, as he walked out the door.
http://www.kansas.com/mld/kansas/sports/colleges/kansas_state_university/15840506.htm
:popcorn:
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I think he does have a philosophy, but sometimes its hard to explain and in some cases it might not line up. I think its clear for the future of the program having Freeman consistently work with the #1s and be the starter baring injury is the way to go if you're going to make that decision. Now, that is looking inconsistent when he talks of competition and the fact that Meier was replaced b/c we weren't scoring TDs when he was in the game. These are times when "fair is not always equal" across the board for the coach. The problem was how Prince handled that. I think he just needed to explain himself. Granted, not everyone is going to be happy and Prince is under the microscope, but I completely understand his rational for what he's doing.
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Our coach is still searching for his philosophy. Hopefully he finds one sooner rather than later.
In the meantime he gives us ism's! :ksu:
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Prince looks inconsistent in his application of the "competitive environment" philosphy he's touted. He looks inconsistent because had Meier had the kind of game Freeman had against MU, he would be shown the bench (like he did after Baylor) due to "performance issues". I'm fine with Freeman being the guy "torpedos be damned", but the questions are warranted considering what Prince has said. And it kind of reinforces the "princes' guys vs. snyder's guys" thing, although personally Snyder's guys on the offense are just terrible and overrated (excluding WR's).
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zacker, you're completely correct. I don't mind Prince's thinking here, but his explanation to the media leaves a lot to be desired.
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He could make a pretty reasonable argument just by citing big play potential. I might look it up at lunch, but I'm guessing Freeman has many more big plays than Dylan.
He could also make a reasonable argument by saying, "Dylan Meier has been a loser in every Big XII game he's participated in", but that wouldn't be very nice to Dylan.
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My opinion is that he either needs to come clean and just say that he's building for the future....or just STFU. It's obvious he doesn't care what the media thinks, so why not just STFU?
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My opinion is that he either needs to come clean and just say that he's building for the future....or just STFU. It's obvious he doesn't care what the media thinks, so why not just STFU?
He turned his back, seemingly fed up, and a last question was posed to him -- then does Meier have a chance to overtake Freeman, in the spirit of competition?
Silence, as he walked out the door.
http://www.kansas.com/mld/kansas/sports/colleges/kansas_state_university/15840506.htm
:popcorn:
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Nice work Jmart. :thumbsup:
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Why not just throw out a fat lie and say 'If I deem Dylan bold and daring enough to lead this team over my boy Freeman than he'll be the one saddling up' or some dumb crap?
He's losing his media darling approach he once had.
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"Prince looks inconsistent"
No he doesn't he said from day one that he was going to name a starter and stick with it. Meier was named the starter and just wasn't getting it done. Freeman has more potential and has actually won a big 12 game.
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"Prince looks inconsistent"
No he doesn't he said from day one that he was going to name a starter and stick with it. Meier was named the starter and just wasn't getting it done. Freeman has more potential and has actually won a big 12 game.
Dude, that doesn't make any sense. First off, I don't recall him ever saying he was going to pick a starter and stick with it. Secondly, if he did say that, then he's a liar, because he picked Dylan and didn't stick with him. And if he's already gone back on his word on that, then why can't he do the same with Josh?
What he has said is that there is competition at EVERY position...and that no matter a player's previous disposition, he would be given a look...and, regarding players, "if you're ready, we're ready."
Was Josh ready? Hmmm.
Is Dylan's previous disposition holding him back? Hmmm.
Is there even competition at quarterback? Not according to Prince.
I don't think anybody would care if he just flat out said, "Every position is open to who wins the competition at practice. Except at quarterback, because Josh is our starter no matter what." Instead he flounders around and pushes what he says back on the reporters who ask the questions, then walks away.
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I'm pretty sure he's always said you name a starting QB and stick with them, unless something drastically changes.
In this case, I don't think he realized how bad Dylan was, so he made a change, and has stuck with it.
Like I said before, I think he wants to say, "Dylan Meier has a history of losing at the Big XII level. He just doesn't have the talent, and Freeman, despite his horrible stats, is a better QB." He can't say that, and it flusters him.
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he's not going back to dylan becaus we already knows how bad he is. Josh still has that x-factor about himself.
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Nobody is asking for an explanation as to why Dylan isn't playing. I think it's understood and has been since the summer...likely before.
The question Prince refuses to answer is: How come 21 positions at practice are open to "competition", but Josh Freeman's is safe, barring injury?
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Typical-journalistic-who-cares-garbage
(I don't know what that means either)
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Nobody is asking for an explanation as to why Dylan isn't playing. I think it's understood and has been since the summer...likely before.
The question Prince refuses to answer is: How come 21 positions at practice are open to "competition", but Josh Freeman's is safe, barring injury?
I'm sure he has some BS theory on "continuity", but I agree with PW that the media cares more about this MUCH more than anyone else.
Ronald's media access has made you guys greedy real quick...it wasn't too long ago that you didn't get ANY info or explanation for ANY coaching decision.
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Nobody is asking for an explanation as to why Dylan isn't playing. I think it's understood and has been since the summer...likely before.
The question Prince refuses to answer is: How come 21 positions at practice are open to "competition", but Josh Freeman's is safe, barring injury?
Maybe Freeman outplays Dylan in practice, but can't execute during games? Maybe they figure that JF is just a few good blocks up front away from breaking out?
Either way, I guess I understand your frustration with the guy, he's sort of an enigma when it comes to the media. He puts on a front of openness until it gets uncomfortable for him, them he shuts it down.
By the way, I liked your article on 3rd down conversions. I'd be interested to see a correlation drawn between penalties on 1st or 2nd downs and the resulting sucess (or lack there of) on third down.
Like:
1st/2nd down penalties = ??% 3rd down completions
vs.
no penalties = ??% 3rd down completions.
I don't have the time to come up with this on my own...
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Nobody is asking for an explanation as to why Dylan isn't playing. I think it's understood and has been since the summer...likely before.
The question Prince refuses to answer is: How come 21 positions at practice are open to "competition", but Josh Freeman's is safe, barring injury?
I'm sure he has some BS theory on "continuity", but I agree with PW that the media cares more about this MUCH more than anyone else.
Ronald's media access has made you guys greedy real quick...it wasn't too long ago that you didn't get ANY info or explanation for ANY coaching decision.
Like I said, I think the answer is pretty clear, and the writing was on the wall long before Dylan was benched. It's pretty obvious that Prince cares quite a bit about it, otherwise he wouldn't have acted like he did on Tuesday.
And, yes, Ron's open-door, speak-to-who-you-want-when-you-want policy is tremendous. :rolleyes:
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Willie, thanks. I'm not big on all the statistic stuff, but that is a pretty telling one and the information is easy to get, since third-down stats are provided. Figuring out all that penalty stuff would take a lot of man hours that only D.Scott Fritchen would spend trying to calculate it all up.
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Thanks for the discussion, LW. I don't doubt Freeman was promised a significant amount of playing time this season...and to be honest, once AE and AW left, I was all for him taking every snap.
Also, here's an easy stat to calculate:
Big XII wins:
Freeman: 1
Meier: 0
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1st, QB is a unique position when it comes to PT and continuity. Patience plus long term effects are bigger factors.
2nd, I think you can see Prince moving this direction in other positions as well, like RB and WR, but not to the same extent. For example, Figurs' role on offense and Alsup's disappearance at RB.
Again, I agree that his response was pretty poor. Prince has shown that when he has time to prep he's a master at PR/media skills, but when pressed a little he's showing he's an inexperienced HC handling these situations for the first time. I think he'll get better at it over time.
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Thanks for the discussion, LW. I don't doubt Freeman was promised a significant amount of playing time this season...and to be honest, once AE and AW left, I was all for him taking every snap.
Also, here's an easy stat to calculate:
Big XII wins:
Freeman: 1
Meier: 0
True that, Rusty. Can't argue with results. I think you'd be hard pressed to find a fan that isn't for JF taking every snap. We've still got to ask the questions to report the answers, though, even if we have a pretty good idea what they are anyway.
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I also figured pass plays over 20 yards.
Dylan has 8, Freeman has 12.
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Rusty, I enhanced your numbers:
I also figured pass plays over 20 yards.
Dylan has 8 in 137 attempts (5.8%), Freeman has 12 in 95 (12.6%).
:)
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Nice, but Freeman has 128 attempts by my count.
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Rusty, I enhanced your numbers:
I also figured pass plays over 20 yards.
Dylan has 8 in 137 attempts (5.8%), Freeman has 12 in 95 (12.6%).
:)
Nice. Now, let's get him a TD pass! :alleyoop:
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Nice, but Freeman has 128 attempts by my count.
Darn. Rivals needs to update their stats. :mad:
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I'm bored, so I'm going to throw out a question. It was tossed around a bit at lunch on Tuesday:
Is everyone in a agreement that it's a good thing for Freeman to be going through this --poor numbers, low win total, playing behind this o-line-- and that this season will have little effect on his long-term play?
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Is everyone in a agreement that it's a good thing for Freeman to be going through this --poor numbers, low win total, playing behind this o-line-- and that this season will have little effect on his long-term play?
It's not an ideal situation, but I think the long-term effects will be minimal. Since redshirting was pretty much not an option, what's the harm in getting him as many snaps as possible?
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Thanks for the discussion, LW. I don't doubt Freeman was promised a significant amount of playing time this season...and to be honest, once AE and AW left, I was all for him taking every snap.
Also, here's an easy stat to calculate:
Big XII wins:
Freeman: 1
Meier: 0
To add to your list:
2006 Big 12 losses
Freeman:3
Meier:0
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There is no queston this is best.
Going into next year, he will be ready to go, period. There will be no wondering how long it will take him to adjust, etc.
He will be ready to play.
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I'm bored, so I'm going to throw out a question. It was tossed around a bit at lunch on Tuesday:
Is everyone in a agreement that it's a good thing for Freeman to be going through this --poor numbers, low win total, playing behind this o-line-- and that this season will have little effect on his long-term play?
With some QB's, yes. I think Freeman has enough of a bravado about him that it won't matter too much. Hopefully the line improves and he is able to take this past years lumps and go crazy when he actually has some support. Too me, Cartier has taken the Huggins opportunity to bust his tail to get something going for himself and the team. Hopefully, Josh takes this same approach in the offseason. He has the tools, just needs to refine them, IMO.
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Thanks for the discussion, LW. I don't doubt Freeman was promised a significant amount of playing time this season...and to be honest, once AE and AW left, I was all for him taking every snap.
Also, here's an easy stat to calculate:
Big XII wins:
Freeman: 1
Meier: 0
To add to your list:
2006 Big 12 losses
Freeman:3
Meier:0
Actually:
Freeman: 3
Meier: 6
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I hate the fact that it seems some are still desperate for the small town kansas white kid to play.
Give it up.
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I'm bored, so I'm going to throw out a question. It was tossed around a bit at lunch on Tuesday:
Is everyone in a agreement that it's a good thing for Freeman to be going through this --poor numbers, low win total, playing behind this o-line-- and that this season will have little effect on his long-term play?
I'll go with yes, provided he has intermittent success. He (and the rest of the young guys) needs to see some bright spots on game film, i.e. "See guys, good things can happen when we execute as a team".
Losing isn't fun, but it can certainly be educational. If the offense doesn't have a couple successful drives here and there, they'll begin to believe that they suck. That's when the effort goes down hill quickly.
My opinion only, mileage will vary...
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Is everyone in a agreement that it's a good thing for Freeman to be going through this --poor numbers, low win total, playing behind this o-line-- and that this season will have little effect on his long-term play?
Honestly, I think it depends. If he comes out this weekend and struggles and K-State loses, then looks worse in Boulder, Prince could have a problem on his hands. No doubt he's going to be the guy next year, but idealy for Josh and K-State football, if he can manage to lead us to solid offensive performances and at least 2 more wins and a bowl game, then the long term effects will be much greater IMO. I simply think there are more chapters to be written for Freeman's freshman season and those will factor in to the longterm benefits to him and the program.
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I hate the fact that is seems some are still desperate for the small town kansas white kid to play.
Give it up.
That's interesting.
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Now, a question for Levi:
Why doesn't anyone in the media come out and ask, "Did you promise Freeman the starting quarterback job during his recruitment."
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Now, a question for Levi:
Why doesn't anyone in the media come out and ask, "Did you promise Freeman the starting quarterback job during his recruitment."
It may have been already. I can't recall. Josh has, and he said "No..."
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I'm bored, so I'm going to throw out a question. It was tossed around a bit at lunch on Tuesday:
Is everyone in a agreement that it's a good thing for Freeman to be going through this --poor numbers, low win total, playing behind this o-line-- and that this season will have little effect on his long-term play?
I don't understand that question. Should we be worried about his feelings getting hurt? Or that he gets so used to crappy play that he goes from Golden Boy to Cubic Zerconium Scrub? That would only happen if it was a) expected b) allowed to. I don't see either one of those choices in this situation.
Let these kids take their licks and grow together.
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I brought up that argument before they made the change and I was completely against starting Freeman. I fully expected Josh to throw a ton of picks and to lose games for us with mistakes. He hasn't done that. That shows me that he isn't overmatched and overwhelmed by his duties. If he were doubting whether he could handle playing at this level then it might be a problem for his confidence in the long term, but you would see that on the field with INTs and stupid decisions. I don't think there is anything Dylan could have done that would have changed the outcome of the last two games.
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"If you have two starting quarterbacks, what really you have is two backups," Prince said.
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I fully expected Josh to throw a ton of picks and to lose games for us with mistakes. He hasn't done that.
Freeman has thrown 8 pics and lost 2 games for us.
(http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j11/wildcatjerrod/DevilsAdvocate.jpg)
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I hate the fact that it seems some are still desperate for the small town kansas white kid to play.
Give it up.
Sincerely,
Marcus Watts and Jordy Nelson
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I fully expected Josh to throw a ton of picks and to lose games for us with mistakes. He hasn't done that.
Freeman has thrown 8 pics and lost 2 games for us.
Only 4 INTs in the three games he has started. I don't know about the ones at Missouri, but the two against Nebraska were not due to bad decisions. I expected him to be far worse.
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Ron Prince created competition at the qb spot by not redshirting freeman. Dylan meier beat him out this fall. He was named the starter. The Baylor game changed things. Meier by some accounts is not gonig to pursue a redshirt. If that is true then you have to go with Freeman, who will most certainly be your starter next year. The qb is not like a rb or wr, you don't play mary go round with the qb, yes I realize that it has been done before but I cant' think of anytime it has been successful. KSU 01? Texas 03? you've got to go with a guy and take some lumps, hell in this case it isn't taking lumps because Freeman isn't doing any worse than meier was. No one is going to tell me that meier gives us any better chance to have won any of the last couple of games. As far as "what is this going to do to freeman's psyche" crap, listen to what he, his teamates (yes, even snyder guys), and coaches say, he knows he has a lot to learn and so do they. I still not cannot believe that this is such an issue for people. For the guy that made the comment about not liking to see the white ks boys on the bench it really makes me wonder. Also, now reporters are criticizing Prince for not answering questions? WTF where were you the last 17 years??? What about people criticizing Ron Prince for talking about Championships??? You're plssed because he fired you up for the season and we are really not that great of a team. It was his summer rah rah tour that put 30,000+ butts into the Bill in April and got KSU all kinds of love from the media and solidified Lamark's commitment and caused Donald Stephenson to waiver on his. Sorry that you are dissapointed in the season but the writing was on the wall. We even all bought into Snyder's "Cabinet not empty" line. Nobody hates losing more than Bill Snyder and if he had a championship calliber team then there is no way he retires after last year, I'm even guilty of buying into that one, but after watching NU, Mizzou and Texas they are clearly the class of the league.
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OK, cire. Let's start at the beginning...
Did Prince have a choice whether to redshirt Freeman or not? Come on, man.
Beyond that, I'm not sure what your point was. Maybe there was more than one?
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yes sorry, one point turned into a post of utter frustration.
He didn't have a choice to redshirt freeman, but RP is now criticized for supposedly going back on his word of letting competition take place which imo is complete bs.
My point is that it is completely unfair to call rp a hypocrite based on the fact that now JF has been named the starting qb hell or highwater. Meier won the job this fall. With Freeman breathing down his neck he was not improving. I think that freeman overtook him and that is that.
I added a lot of other things in there that didn't have to do with the origional topic and I apologize.
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No, it's cool. I see your point.
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Dude, are you serious? The man contradicts himself. That's my issue. I couldn't care less who the freakin' starting quarterback is. Not one bit. My issue is when he says one thing and does something totally different. To me, that's being dishonest, and to me, that's a lack of respect from someone I have to have a working, professional relationship with. He could have avoided all of this, as someone pointed out earlier, by simply saying the quarterback position is different. But he didn't.
I asked him a question. He walked away. Even a simple 'no comment' would have sufficed. Instead, he walked away. That's ridiculous.
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Do you think Bill Snyder would have answered that question? I understand your frustration as a journalist but I don't think that there are too many football coaches out there that would have answered that. That's the kind of question that gets bob knight fined.
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No, I don't, but I also don't think Bill Snyder would have spent the past five months talking about how he wanted competition at every position even though there was a obvious glaring exception.
Honestly, I wasn't trying to stir any crap. As for the Whitlock thing, that's unfortunate, man. That wasn't my aim at all.
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I understand, I live in KC and have read your column everyday online, I think you the best job of covering the cats in the state. The Whitlock comment by me was embarrasing.
I do believe that on anyteam the qb position is different. A lot of people including myself felt that JF would beat out meier hands down after getting aclimated to the college game which I think he has done. I just don't think that there is a competition there anymore.
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It's all good. I thought they should have started him fron Day 1.
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Dude, are you serious? The man contradicts himself. That's my issue. I couldn't care less who the freakin' starting quarterback is. Not one bit. My issue is when he says one thing and does something totally different. To me, that's being dishonest, and to me, that's a lack of respect from someone I have to have a working, professional relationship with. He could have avoided all of this, as someone pointed out earlier, by simply saying the quarterback position is different. But he didn't.
I asked him a question. He walked away. Even a simple 'no comment' would have sufficed. Instead, he walked away. That's ridiculous.
Hopefully this, now personal, vendetta will be reflected in your writing covering Kansas State.
:frown:
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Dude, are you serious? The man contradicts himself. That's my issue. I couldn't care less who the freakin' starting quarterback is. Not one bit. My issue is when he says one thing and does something totally different. To me, that's being dishonest, and to me, that's a lack of respect from someone I have to have a working, professional relationship with. He could have avoided all of this, as someone pointed out earlier, by simply saying the quarterback position is different. But he didn't.
I asked him a question. He walked away. Even a simple 'no comment' would have sufficed. Instead, he walked away. That's ridiculous.
Hopefully this, now personal, vendetta will be reflected in your writing covering Kansas State.
:frown:
It's not a personal vendetta; I think J-Mart is just racist against black people. But then again so are most KSU fans so he'd really be writing for his "base". :jerkoff:
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Just curious... Did the media ask Bill Snyder, after any media conference during the Big 12 season last year, about his QB situation at the time? Seems that there was a healthy QB standing on the sidelines that had won some Big 12 games while a certain redshirt freshman QB was "gaining" experience while losing every game he started... and losing some of them pretty bad.
I just think the media thought they were going to have a good ol' time with Prince based off his barnstorming tour during the off-season. Suddenly, they were whacked upside the head when the season started, only to be left scrambling when it was realized that Prince talks more, but says way less than Snyder.
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Dude, are you serious? The man contradicts himself. That's my issue. I couldn't care less who the freakin' starting quarterback is. Not one bit. My issue is when he says one thing and does something totally different. To me, that's being dishonest, and to me, that's a lack of respect from someone I have to have a working, professional relationship with. He could have avoided all of this, as someone pointed out earlier, by simply saying the quarterback position is different. But he didn't.
I asked him a question. He walked away. Even a simple 'no comment' would have sufficed. Instead, he walked away. That's ridiculous.
Hopefully this, now personal, vendetta will be reflected in your writing covering Kansas State.
:frown:
So JMart was supposed to be a good little boy and not call Prince out on his hypocrisy?
Cuz thats all he was doing. There was nothing personal about it.
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Just curious... Did the media ask Bill Snyder, after any media conference during the Big 12 season last year, about his QB situation at the time? Seems that there was a healthy QB standing on the sidelines that had won some Big 12 games while a certain redshirt freshman QB was "gaining" experience while losing every game he started... and losing some of them pretty bad.
I just think the media thought they were going to have a good ol' time with Prince based off his barnstorming tour during the off-season. Suddenly, they were whacked upside the head when the season started, only to be left scrambling when it was realized that Prince talks more, but says way less than Snyder.
Bill pretty much said,for damn near every position that starting was earned in practice (which of course was closed to the public). People still asked Bill questions about his QB situation, he just answered them better. For instance, look below at this article.
http://www.arkcity.net/stories/101005/spo_0002.shtml
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So JMart was supposed to be a good little boy and not call Prince out on his hypocrisy?
Cuz thats all he was doing. There was nothing personal about it.
No ones cares either way.
Only "journalists".
If he promised him the starting job, if there is no competition at QB, if Prince wouldn't answer, none of it matters.
The best player is playing. Thanks Prince.
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Dude, are you serious? The man contradicts himself. That's my issue. I couldn't care less who the freakin' starting quarterback is. Not one bit. My issue is when he says one thing and does something totally different. To me, that's being dishonest, and to me, that's a lack of respect from someone I have to have a working, professional relationship with. He could have avoided all of this, as someone pointed out earlier, by simply saying the quarterback position is different. But he didn't.
I asked him a question. He walked away. Even a simple 'no comment' would have sufficed. Instead, he walked away. That's ridiculous.
Bill Snyder kindly requests that you stop writing anything that portrays Ron Prince or the KSU football program in a negative light.
thankyouverymuch. :blindfold: