KSUFans Archives
Sports => Frank Martin's OOD sponsored by the "Angriest Fans in America" => Topic started by: catdude33 on October 01, 2009, 08:12:25 PM
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We know the talent in the front court will be improved this season. We know pullen and clemente are very good. We know this is the most balanced in terms of depth and talent that we've had in a very long time. We will be good. But what will it take to be great? Here's my #1 key this season to push us past the realm of goodness and into a 12-4, top 20 type season.
One of our incoming guards has to step up and make an impact. Yes Denis and Pullen will be very good, but we desperately need a guard to step up and be something special off the bench. We definitely need our incoming freshmen guards to step up and take every single one of CM's minutes away from him. If Russell/McGruder/Irving are merely average freshmen in the Big XII we will still have a good season. Maybe 10-6. But if 1 or 2 of them turn out to be a difference maker off the bench we could looking at a special season.
Agree? Thoughts? What are your #1 keys for being better than just good?
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Looked at Lindy's basketball season preview mag today while at the bookstore in the Union. He picks us to finish sixth in the Big XII. :rolleyes:
Pullen and his season predictions would demolish that mother fracker....
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Agree? Thoughts? What are your #1 keys for being better than just good?
sutton.
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I hope our big men are better at defense than they were in the past.
I like Sutton at the 3 a lot. If he ever found a jumpshot, we'd be pretty hard to defend.
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I hope our big men are better at defense than they were in the past.
I like Sutton at the 3 a lot. If he ever found a jumpshot, we'd be pretty hard to defend.
I'm not sure if sutton really needs a jump shot. I think he just needs to me more aggressive to the hole. Attack and dunk (no pansy ass layups if your with in 4 feet of the basket) or pass. Leave the outside jump shots to McGruder (although I think he will be good at attacking too) Pullen, and Clemente. We have scoring threats at every position now more so than ever before. Sutton is defense and slashing player. :piratecaptain:
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I agree on Sutton, but mainly I think it comes down to our bigs. Namely, can one of the bigs (I'm thinking Kelly or Judge) become a guy that can be a consistent back to the basket, post up player. We've simply got to have another option when games come down to possessions (and they will) besides a drive or chuck from Clemente/Pullen.
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hmmm...pretty sure i've started a thread about similar. gonna try to dig er up.
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Agree? Thoughts? What are your #1 keys for being better than just good?
sutton.
http://www.ksufans.com/forums/index.php?topic=41959.0
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k-state fan's love affair with clemente is puzzling to me. he's not the type of player you want to rely on or build a team around.
take a look at these stats from last year and tell me what it is that has you so impressed-
http://www.big12sports.com/ViewContent.dbml?&DB_OEM_ID=10410&CONTENT_ID=3376
i just don't see it. he's streaky and is the farthest thing from a go-to guy that there could be. every team needs a go-to player, he isn't one and will never be one.
fun to watch? sure, sometimes - when he's dropping dimes from midcourt and they happen to be falling, otherwise, not so much.
he's not big enough to create his own shot, doesn't shoot well enough to even be counted on to drop them when he's open.
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Sutton will never be able to shoot. Just like Hoskins was never able to shoot. And that's ok as long as he attacks the rim. My 'key' is better.
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key to being better: the 4 and the 5 need to contribute on both ends of the floor. that's it.
samuels hopefully bulked up in the off season to match his athleticsm. CK needs to play like an experienced post player.
judge is a wildcard, our site has him listed at 248lbs, can he be that thick? i always thought he was wirey, he'll need to learn to play with his back to the basket and gain experience at the d1 level. with our undersized guards we can't have 4 players facing the basket on offense.
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piss, what is your bball background. pretty solid? love your anally.
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piss, what is your bball background. pretty solid? love your anally.
thanks trips, i would say my bball background is very reliable. :peek:
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k-state fan's love affair with clemente is puzzling to me. he's not the type of player you want to rely on or build a team around.
take a look at these stats from last year and tell me what it is that has you so impressed-
http://www.big12sports.com/ViewContent.dbml?&DB_OEM_ID=10410&CONTENT_ID=3376
Top 15 in scoring, FG%, FT%, A:TO ratio, and assists?
:dunno:
He needs to get better/more consistent at shooting from behind the arc, controlling emotions, and he can't finish as inconsistenly as he did last year, but kid is a pretty damn good player.
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Agree? Thoughts? What are your #1 keys for being better than just good?
sutton.
Forgot about something that Frank talked about at the KC banquet...
Frank was asked about Dom, and shared the following story, which I am sure I'll butcher...
Dom played the 5 and 4 in HS, and that he's progressing very well given that he's now a 2/3 for the first time ever.
Apparently the coach of the international team that Dom and Jake played on told Frank that our guys were the hardest working and most coach-able guys on the team. That Dom was a force and that he was the focus of other teams. As the story goes, Dom was averaging 6-7 assist a game and Figger was geeked about it (Frank went on and on about how "Figgs" is the numbers guy on the staff). Tell's Frank about this...Frank ask Dom why he isn't doing that for us...Dom says because he's getting double-trippled teamed on the international team "against grown men" and so he has to pass the ball.
It had to be in the delivery, because then laughter errupt....or I missed something in the midst of the anecdote while I was thinking "If Dom can actually start creating his own shot and then make that shot, we are going to be really, really fracking good this year...hey, I have an erection now, wow!"
Probably fouled it all up, but that's what I got on that. :Carl:
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k-state fan's love affair with clemente is puzzling to me. he's not the type of player you want to rely on or build a team around.
take a look at these stats from last year and tell me what it is that has you so impressed-
http://www.big12sports.com/ViewContent.dbml?&DB_OEM_ID=10410&CONTENT_ID=3376
Top 15 in scoring, FG%, FT%, A:TO ratio, and assists?
:dunno:
He needs to get better/more consistent at shooting from behind the arc, controlling emotions, and he can't finish as inconsistenly as he did last year, but kid is a pretty damn good player.
I love his EMAWness. :WeirdRobert:
Agree? Thoughts? What are your #1 keys for being better than just good?
sutton.
Forgot about something that Frank talked about at the KC banquet...
Frank was asked about Dom, and shared the following story, which I am sure I'll butcher...
Dom played the 5 and 4 in HS, and that he's progressing very well given that he's now a 2/3 for the first time ever.
Apparently the coach of the international team that Dom and Jake played on told Frank that our guys were the hardest working and most coach-able guys on the team. That Dom was a force and that he was the focus of other teams. As the story goes, Dom was averaging 6-7 assist a game and Figger was geeked about it (Frank went on and on about how "Figgs" is the numbers guy on the staff). Tell's Frank about this...Frank ask Dom why he isn't doing that for us...Dom says because he's getting double-trippled teamed on the international team "against grown men" and so he has to pass the ball.
It had to be in the delivery, because then laughter errupt....or I missed something in the midst of the anecdote while I was thinking "If Dom can actually start creating his own shot and then make that shot, we are going to be really, really fracking good this year...hey, I have an erection now, wow!"
Probably fouled it all up, but that's what I got on that. :Carl:
Fantastic story even if you did butcher it.
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Frank went on and on about how "Figgs" is the numbers guy on the staff.
i figgered as much.
agree w. 'clams on clemente being overrated by pretty much everyone ('cept clams, me and one guy on ouhoops :skillz:). he's not an efficient player. hopefully his role on the team is reduced. if not, kstate isn't going to be as improved as everyone wants to predict.
agree w. '33 that sutton isn't likely to be dramatically improved. that's why kstate is unlikely to be better than good.
agree w. 'verybody that the bigs need to be improved on both ends of the court. but, that is just the step to be good, rather than mediocre. thread is about being better than good.
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I think Clemente is appropriately rated at second team All Big 12.
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NBA players. If we are an elite team this year, we'll have a player or two that could be taken in the next draft.
All the other keys that have been mentioned, are the keys to being good. Elite level teams have pros. At this point, I don't think we have any, though we do have some players with pro upside. Would be a huge statement about Frank's ability to develop if we had a player drafted (or projected to be drafted) this year.
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who overrates Clemente? He's a good Big 12 point guard, he just needs to reduce his turnovers. But that doesn't take away from him being good.
We're going to be a good, not great team because we have good, not great talent. I mean, sure, if Sutton somehow finds some type of range (which he hasn't) then we could be above good AND....if Curtis Kelly plays up to his talent (which he hasn't) ....AND if Judge and McGruder provide quality play (which, obviously they haven't shown they can yet) .....AND if Jake becomes more consistent (which he hasn't) then we could become an above good team......also, if I won the lottery I'd be rich.
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k-state fan's love affair with clemente is puzzling to me. he's not the type of player you want to rely on or build a team around.
take a look at these stats from last year and tell me what it is that has you so impressed-
http://www.big12sports.com/ViewContent.dbml?&DB_OEM_ID=10410&CONTENT_ID=3376
Top 15 in scoring, FG%, FT%, A:TO ratio, and assists?
:dunno:
He needs to get better/more consistent at shooting from behind the arc, controlling emotions, and he can't finish as inconsistenly as he did last year, but kid is a pretty damn good player.
top 15 is good, it's not great. fans here overrate him, as if our back court is so great. it's not. he's our go-to guy, our #1 offensive threat. he needs size, the ability to create his own shot, and the ability to consistently knock down the open jumper when we run a play for him, he doesn't have any of those things.
on the flip side, i love jake.
I think Clemente is appropriately rated at second team All Big 12.
i don't know if i agree. if you were asked who the 2nd best 2 guard in the b12 is, would you say Denis? i realize that's now how the all-big 12 teams are assembled but that's how i like to look at it.
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agree with a lot of the points made here. It's not impossible with the talent we have, but sometimes teams just have things click for them, like MU last year. I don't think there's any real hope of that, but you never know when teams just kind of "get it" or "have it" out of nowhere. Like said though, that'd be the sports equivalent of winning the lottery.
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love your anally.
No homo? :shy:
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who overrates Clemente? He's a good Big 12 point guard, he just needs to reduce his turnovers. But that doesn't take away from him being good.
We're going to be a good, not great team because we have good, not great talent. I mean, sure, if Sutton somehow finds some type of range (which he hasn't) then we could be above good AND....if Curtis Kelly plays up to his talent (which he hasn't) ....AND if Judge and McGruder provide quality play (which, obviously they haven't shown they can yet) .....AND if Jake becomes more consistent (which he hasn't) then we could become an above good team......also, if I won the lottery I'd be rich.
denis doesn't play point :blank:
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I think 'clams is being too hard on Denis. I think people are forgetting that Denis has to play kind of reckless because of the people who are around him. Remember who we had playing the 4 and 5 last year. DK and LC. DK scored 9 pts per game and got 6 boards per game last year because teams were so worried about stopping Denis and Pullen. I'm expecting a more controlled game out of our guards this year because I'm expecting that we'll have some offensive threat inside the paint.
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Oh, and my key for us being a good team this year...how about we start making some free throws before February this year.
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who overrates Clemente? He's a good Big 12 point guard, he just needs to reduce his turnovers. But that doesn't take away from him being good.
We're going to be a good, not great team because we have good, not great talent. I mean, sure, if Sutton somehow finds some type of range (which he hasn't) then we could be above good AND....if Curtis Kelly plays up to his talent (which he hasn't) ....AND if Judge and McGruder provide quality play (which, obviously they haven't shown they can yet) .....AND if Jake becomes more consistent (which he hasn't) then we could become an above good team......also, if I won the lottery I'd be rich.
denis doesn't play point :blank:
ball bringer-uppper?
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who overrates Clemente? He's a good Big 12 point guard, he just needs to reduce his turnovers. But that doesn't take away from him being good.
We're going to be a good, not great team because we have good, not great talent. I mean, sure, if Sutton somehow finds some type of range (which he hasn't) then we could be above good AND....if Curtis Kelly plays up to his talent (which he hasn't) ....AND if Judge and McGruder provide quality play (which, obviously they haven't shown they can yet) .....AND if Jake becomes more consistent (which he hasn't) then we could become an above good team......also, if I won the lottery I'd be rich.
denis doesn't play point :blank:
ball bringer-uppper?
:confused:
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Dennis is a good player. However, PC is right when he says that: A. he can't carry the team to greatness and B. If we're going to be a lot better this year, Denis has to carry a lower % of the scoring load.
I'd love to see Denis get more steals as well. For a small quick guy, he should pick a lot more pockets.
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i'm in no way saying Denis isn't a good player, he is. my biggest point is that he's also very limited in what he can contribute to the team and a lot of posters here don't seem to realize that.
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i'm in no way saying Denis isn't a good player, he is. my biggest point is that he's also very limited in what he can contribute to the team and a lot of posters here don't seem to realize that.
I can see that. I'm probably overplaying what he can do. I just think the combination of ability to score to go along with a decent FG% for a guard and solid assist numbers makes him pretty good right now. I think he was 2nd team all league for a reason. And like I said above, he definately has some limitations, but lots of really good college players have limitations. If he makes some improvements, no reason he couldn't go beyond "just" a good/really good guard in this league.
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Plyers rated in amount of Good by sd:
Denis - Pretty Good
Jake - Pretty Good
Jamar - Kinda Good
Sutton - Kinda Good
Colon - Not really Good
Merriewether - Not Good at all
Wally - Hopefully really Good
Kelly - Hopefully pretty Good
McG - Hopefully Good
Russell - Hopefully Good
Jordan - Hopefully Kinda Good
Martavious - Hopefully Kinda Good
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Plyers rated in amount of Good by sd:
Denis - Pretty Good
Jake - Pretty Good
Jamar - Kinda Good
Sutton - Kinda Good
Colon - Not really Good
Merriewether - Not Good at all
Wally - Hopefully really Good
Kelly - Hopefully pretty Good
McG - Hopefully Good
Russell - Hopefully Good
Jordan - Hopefully Kinda Good
Martavious - Hopefully Kinda Good
i like it.
rate them not in terms of where they are now, but where they could go.
imo Jamar/Wally could both be very good/great players. jamar needs to bulk up about 15-20 lbs of muscle mass.
denis has topped out and probably isn't going to get better than he is. could work on shot selection.
jake could improve his strength, finishing at the rim, game management, and shooting %. his growth has been cool to watch.
luis, terrible, won't improve.
CK should fit in with the Jamar/Wally posse at very good/great but we have to see.
rest of freshman too early to gauge.
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Doesn't anyone agree that depth at guard is a huge question mark right now? One that could make or break the season. If CM is getting any significant minutes at all we are kind of screwed. Nick and/or Rod stepping up and contributing is essential now that fred is gone, right? Would like some more discussion on this point, ok.
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Doesn't anyone agree that depth at guard is a huge question mark right now? One that could make or break the season. If CM is getting any significant minutes at all we are kind of screwed. Nick and/or Rod stepping up and contributing is essential now that fred is gone, right? Would like some more discussion on this point, ok.
Yeah, I agree. Why didn't you say something about this earlier :dunno:
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Doesn't anyone agree that depth at guard is a huge question mark right now? One that could make or break the season. If CM is getting any significant minutes at all we are kind of screwed. Nick and/or Rod stepping up and contributing is essential now that fred is gone, right? Would like some more discussion on this point, ok.
we also lost our two "best" 3point shooters. although pullen usually goes for quantity over quality. that's kind of a concern to me.
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Doesn't anyone agree that depth at guard is a huge question mark right now? One that could make or break the season. If CM is getting any significant minutes at all we are kind of screwed. Nick and/or Rod stepping up and contributing is essential now that fred is gone, right? Would like some more discussion on this point, ok.
we also lost our two "best" 3point shooters. although pullen usually goes for quantity over quality. that's kind of a concern to me.
I agree i wasn't crazy about either Brown and Awaji but maybe it would have been nice to keep one of those guys around. Awaji had some size and could shoot it I would like to have him off the bench this year.
From the sound of it Nick Russell is looking good so maybe he's the frosh guard that steps up for us. I also tend to think that Wally could be a little better then what people are saying. He's not proven at this level but guys that get ranked where he was are generally good players and generally can help out right away.
I find it interesting that teams in Europe made Dom the focal point of their defense. Not sure if they were just basing this on who looked like they'd be the best scorer. Would be nice if he could get some consistency on the offensive end of the floor. He's never going to be a great shooter or scorer but he can and should improve.
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I find it interesting that teams in Europe made Dom the focal point of their defense. Not sure if they were just basing this on who looked like they'd be the best scorer.
I don't. Did you see that roster? It was Jake, Dom and a bunch of guys that I could D up.
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The funny thing about this thread is that a lot of the more critical posts presume we're always in a half court offense.
This presumption is used to an absolute fault. Obviously Frank prefers to get up and down the floor and push the tempo. Pressure D, high risk plays, etc. The expectations of anything to the contrary are insane, any players with that skill set have been in the NBA for three years.
Clemente is about as good as it gets running the floor, pushing the tempo. The bigs we have on our roster now are very fleet of foot and cap leap. The team is built to run the floor and defend and have enough athleticism to score in the half court, some way some how, often by a weakside rebound on a missed J (aka chuck a shot at the basket).
Of course it would be nice to have all the other crap everyone is whining about not having. But let's be realistic, not many teams have a post that can consistently score using his "moves" and when he's doubled kick it to a guard who hits 40%+ of the tre's and also has the body to slash and score while being the perfect court visionary (any 'tard uk fans lurking, Aldrich can't catch a pass w/o traveling and Collins is as inconsistent as Denis).
How did ya'll get so spoiled??? :KSUFansAppv:
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I find it interesting that teams in Europe made Dom the focal point of their defense. Not sure if they were just basing this on who looked like they'd be the best scorer.
I don't. Did you see that roster? It was Jake, Dom and a bunch of guys that I could D up.
Doubt they (European teams) spent a lot of time scouting all the individual US players. If you defend Dom straight up with a small forward, he'll drive on you. It's when you back way off of him and force him to shoot that he loses effectiveness. Dom would love it if big 12 SFs played tighter D on him.
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From where I sit KSU has fielded the strongest most athletic team I've seen perhaps in last 25yrs. If they develope chemistry as a team the upside is great imho. Not say ku talent but then, they could win it all. Looking very much forward to seeing this team and how they work to make each other better. :kstatriot: