KSUFans Archives
Sports => Snyder's Electronic Cyber Space World => Topic started by: Trim on September 20, 2009, 04:02:49 PM
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When in wildcat, what's the benefit to keeping the usual qb on the field split out at wr? Would the defense make considerable adjustments if they saw the usual qb sub out of a wr or te? Would they have time to? If so, does it really matter in KSU's case when Coffman is no threat no matter where he lines up including at qb?
I'm aware that when the Jets started running this last year, they'd split out Pennington and he'd make half-hearted blocks and then weeks/months later the d was lulled to sleep and he got wide open for a deep reception. Seems like that could be done just as easily with any receiver though. :dunno:
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you don't make a sub that will give the D a heads up that it's coming.
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When in wildcat, what's the benefit to keeping the usual qb on the field split out at wr? Would the defense make considerable adjustments if they saw the usual qb sub out of a wr or te? Would they have time to? If so, does it really matter in KSU's case when Coffman is no threat no matter where he lines up including at qb?
I'm aware that when the Jets Dolphins started running this last year, they'd split out Pennington and he'd make half-hearted blocks and then weeks/months later the d was lulled to sleep and he got wide open for a deep reception. Seems like that could be done just as easily with any receiver though. :dunno:
I think the reason the QB stays out there is because you don't actually see the formation until they get to the line of scrimmage. Seeing the starting QB heading to the sideline would tip your hand and allow the defense to substitute in preparation for the wildcat. And the D does have to account for the QB because of his threat to pass from that position, instead of merely catching the ball and with running it. It would be ideal if the QB was actually athletic and a threat to catch/run with the ball...
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When in wildcat, what's the benefit to keeping the usual qb on the field split out at wr? Would the defense make considerable adjustments if they saw the usual qb sub out of a wr or te? Would they have time to? If so, does it really matter in KSU's case when Coffman is no threat no matter where he lines up including at qb?
I'm aware that when the Jets Dolphins started running this last year, they'd split out Pennington and he'd make half-hearted blocks and then weeks/months later the d was lulled to sleep and he got wide open for a deep reception. Seems like that could be done just as easily with any receiver though. :dunno:
I think the reason the QB stays out there is because you don't actually see the formation until they get to the line of scrimmage. Seeing the starting QB heading to the sideline would tip your hand and allow the defense to substitute in preparation for the wildcat. And the D does have to account for the QB because of his threat to pass from that position, instead of merely catching the ball and with running it. It would be ideal if the QB was actually athletic and a threat to catch/run with the ball...
What substitution would they make? And wouldn't any allowed substitution be offset by replacing Coffman and not going 10 vs. 10.5?
If we had an athletic threatening qb, he could just run the wildcat plays himself.
D isn't going to get burned by a split-wide-Coffman deep ball by the time DT or whoever can get it to him.
I guess Coffman's my problem. :dunno:
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When in wildcat, what's the benefit to keeping the usual qb on the field split out at wr? Would the defense make considerable adjustments if they saw the usual qb sub out of a wr or te? Would they have time to? If so, does it really matter in KSU's case when Coffman is no threat no matter where he lines up including at qb?
I'm aware that when the Jets Dolphins started running this last year, they'd split out Pennington and he'd make half-hearted blocks and then weeks/months later the d was lulled to sleep and he got wide open for a deep reception. Seems like that could be done just as easily with any receiver though. :dunno:
I think the reason the QB stays out there is because you don't actually see the formation until they get to the line of scrimmage. Seeing the starting QB heading to the sideline would tip your hand and allow the defense to substitute in preparation for the wildcat. And the D does have to account for the QB because of his threat to pass from that position, instead of merely catching the ball and with running it. It would be ideal if the QB was actually athletic and a threat to catch/run with the ball...
What substitution would they make? And wouldn't any allowed substitution be offset by replacing Coffman and not going 10 vs. 10.5?
If we had an athletic threatening qb, he could just run the wildcat plays himself.
D isn't going to get burned by a split-wide-Coffman deep ball by the time DT or whoever can get it to him.
I guess Coffman's my problem. :dunno:
really just means we should make DT the qb
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When in wildcat, what's the benefit to keeping the usual qb on the field split out at wr? Would the defense make considerable adjustments if they saw the usual qb sub out of a wr or te? Would they have time to? If so, does it really matter in KSU's case when Coffman is no threat no matter where he lines up including at qb?
I'm aware that when the Jets Dolphins started running this last year, they'd split out Pennington and he'd make half-hearted blocks and then weeks/months later the d was lulled to sleep and he got wide open for a deep reception. Seems like that could be done just as easily with any receiver though. :dunno:
I think the reason the QB stays out there is because you don't actually see the formation until they get to the line of scrimmage. Seeing the starting QB heading to the sideline would tip your hand and allow the defense to substitute in preparation for the wildcat. And the D does have to account for the QB because of his threat to pass from that position, instead of merely catching the ball and with running it. It would be ideal if the QB was actually athletic and a threat to catch/run with the ball...
What substitution would they make? And wouldn't any allowed substitution be offset by replacing Coffman and not going 10 vs. 10.5?
If we had an athletic threatening qb, he could just run the wildcat plays himself.
D isn't going to get burned by a split-wide-Coffman deep ball by the time DT or whoever can get it to him.
I guess Coffman's my problem. :dunno:
IF the qb comes out of the game the Defense can change it's package. IE, if they're in a Nickel look or a pass rush look, out comes the Wildcat.
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If the QB comes out of the game, defenses would just man up all the WRs and put everyone else in the box, negating one of the positive effects of the Wildcat, getting the "extra man" on offense. Most college defenses aren't able to change their defense that much after the huddle breaks. So if you're 3 wide, it makes a big difference running the ball against 7 in the box vs 8 in the box. Plus you would also see defenses running more run blitzes/stunts when they knew no QB was in the game. Keeping the QB in the game forces the defense to play straight up and not adjust as much as they could if they knew no QB was in the game.
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If the QB comes out of the game, defenses would just man up all the WRs and put everyone else in the box, negating one of the positive effects of the Wildcat, getting the "extra man" on offense. Most college defenses aren't able to change their defense that much after the huddle breaks. So if you're 3 wide, it makes a big difference running the ball against 7 in the box vs 8 in the box. Plus you would also see defenses running more run blitzes/stunts when they knew no QB was in the game. Keeping the QB in the game forces the defense to play straight up and not adjust as much as they could if they knew no QB was in the game.
why wouldn't the defense just do that anyway? when we got to the wildcat, teams are going to do this. the adjustment on O is to have (a) Thomas throw (which he did) or (b) have Carson motion to the backfield for a "normal" play or have him coming around for a reverse pass.
I'd be an advocate of having a package of plays where Carson comes out of the game entirely and have DT at QB and Klein as a receiver. if you need to do some trickery, klein can throw (can't he?).
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why wouldn't the defense just do that anyway? when we got to the wildcat, teams are going to do this. the adjustment on O is to have (a) Thomas throw (which he did) or (b) have Carson motion to the backfield for a "normal" play or have him coming around for a reverse pass.
I'd be an advocate of having a package of plays where Carson comes out of the game entirely and have DT at QB and Klein as a receiver. if you need to do some trickery, klein can throw (can't he?).
Yeah, they can still adjust when they see Coffman split out. But you are still more likely to get the defense in a favorable alignment b/c they only have time to change their defense between the time the huddle breaks to when the formation is set and the ball is snapped. A smart coordinator should be able to take advantage of that b/c of what you can do with formations to create running lanes or even favorable situations for Thomas to throw. Using Klein may be a valid point, but he hasn't lined up one snap at QB, so most defenses probably wouldn't adjust.
I know the popular K-State hate just wants to get Coffman off the field, but its not going to happen, Wildcat formation or not.
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I guess what I'm saying is this: we've tipped our hand with the wildcat already. teams are going to have on field read calls when we go to the Wildcat and carson splits out to WR. won't most defenses do some version of man cover 1 or man under when they see a wildcat formation? it would stack the box. so at that point, we better have something to counter whatever they have for us. and, imo you can counter anything they would want to do by having threats at all positions, which includes WR...with Klein in the wildcat package you still would be able to retain the option of a pass, only it's more veiled than have carson out there.
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I guess what I'm saying is this: we've tipped our hand with the wildcat already. teams are going to have on field read calls when we go to the Wildcat and carson splits out to WR. won't most defenses do some version of man cover 1 or man under when they see a wildcat formation? it would stack the box. so at that point, we better have something to counter whatever they have for us. and, imo you can counter anything they would want to do by having threats at all positions, which includes WR...with Klein in the wildcat package you still would be able to retain the option of a pass, only it's more veiled than have carson out there.
True. If they go cover 1 (I'm assuming you mean with 1 free), then we should still have a numbers advantage. That's probably the most likely adjustment with Coffan still on the field. But if a team goes cover 0 (no free) then you've got to do something. That's probably what most people would do if just Thomas was in the game with no QB on the field when the huddle is broken. I'm also assuming teams would change personnel as well, especially since they've seen us do it already. If I knew no QB was in the huddle, I'd take out a DB and put in a LB, go cover 0, and send 5 or 6 guys. In most situations, and especially with our Oline, that would probalby blow-up the Wildcat.
If they do try that adjustment with Coffman still on the field, then Snyder has to be willing to see if Thomas can check at the LOS and throw some sort of fade/vertical. Of course, that's putting more responsibility on guy than Snyder is probalby willing to give, especially if he's not taking regular snaps at QB.
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Next year they should just start Kassavoid, Lamur, Klein, Harper, Thomas & Coffman at the skill positions and let them Rock-Paper-Scissors in the huddle to see who lines up under center for each play. :dunno:
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Next year they should just start Kassavoid, Lamur, Klein, Harper, Thomas & Coffman at the skill positions and let them Rock-Paper-Scissors in the huddle to see who lines up under center for each play. :dunno:
:lol: That would be awesome!
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When the QB splits out wide the defense still has to line a guy out with him. If they don't you throw the ball out to the QB. You basically make it 10 on 10 intead of 11 on 11 by forcing them to put a player out wide.
If you took Coffman off the field and put a more talented player out wide it wouldn't really change things. If you took Coffman off and put in a more talented player in closer to the formation then you would have an extra player to block or to get the ball too but the defensive would also have an extra defender. I don't think it would really make much of a difference one way or another.