KSUFans Archives
Sports => Snyder's Electronic Cyber Space World => Topic started by: AzCat on October 02, 2006, 12:58:57 PM
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(http://catzone.cjonline.com/images/020502/ksu.woolridge.jpg)
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Prince isn't likable.
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I can't say I'm going to throw Prince under the bus yet, but there is a major difference in that comparison.
Wooly had been around the block some and had a pretty solid philosophy. He stuck with it and sounded original. He always seemed genuine in what he was trying to do IMO, it just didn't work very well. He finally started to change things the last few years of his tenure offensively, but it was too little too late.
Prince is a lot younger, and at times it sounds like he has a collection of soundbites of coaching cliches and has formulated them into his philosophy. I don't think he's a solid with his Xs and Os offensively, nor is Franklin, and that is showing. I think he'll stick for the most part with what he's doing, but it also wouldn't surprise me to see significant changes as the year goes along if the offense continues to not produce. It seems the longer Prince coaches the more the set plan he had in place seems to be falling apart and he's kind of going by the seat of his pants now to adjust. I never got that sense with Wooly.
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Prince won't have near the honeymoon Wooly received.
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Not to mention Wooly was coaching during the 11 wins seasons, so no one really cared that he sucked.
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Prince won't have near the honeymoon Wooly received.
The over/under for Prince's honeymoon is 2 more games without an offensive touchdown.
Wooly's honeymoon last until several weeks past the ku game last spring.
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Prince will, for only the fact that their success is tied together, get more support from his AD than Wooly.
Wooly also went away from the Triangle (his philosophy) the past two seasons, moreso this past year.
The problem I see with Prince, is that he doesn't know what the hell his identity is on offense. We have never really committed to running the football; we assume it won't work and get away from it. Also, it does our QB no good to get rid of the ball when he could step up and run for about 3 yards, instead of firing an one-hopper and ending up with 2nd and 10 instead of 2nd and 7. The defense has an identity: they play fast, they play physical, they hit hard, and they make you work for yardage (most of the time).
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Prince also has an excellent consultant in-house that could potentially be of great assistance on the offensive side of the ball ... if he chooses to request the assitance he so clearly needs.
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My feelings on Prince:
He isn't really getting blamed for much by most people now, I think many think it is a talent deficiency @ QB. IMO I have no idea why he shouldn't be getting absolutely hammered on this point because it has to be crystal clear at this point that Freeman was his chosen son and that AE/Webb/Lopina all got &@#%ed.
I think Prince will get turned on faster than a whiplash and that he will be gone by season 3 if no bowl game or no positive outlook for a bowl game. I think this isn't fair to him and I think he has a lot of things going right, but this O-line/QB/RB/WR/Mass-TURD (offense) absolutely sucks. I don't have the patience to really explore how much of the O is his fault, but from what I can tell at least part of the blame is his for player management.
The facts are this: People will turn on Prince MUCH faster than they would many other coaches we've hired. For all the crap we gave him for hiring people like Raheem/Tibesar, they've been outstanding. His failings have been what were portrayed as his strengths (O-line/Offense/Recruiting) and I don't know how concerned we should be just yet.
I am now back to wait and see mode, but extremely disappointed that the Offense hasn't improved AT ALL and that Freeman is getting thrown to the dogs already.
BASKETBALL!!!!!!! :)
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Prince also has an excellent consultant in-house that could potentially be of great assistance on the offensive side of the ball ... if he chooses to request the assitance he so clearly needs.
He won't request that. He would have to run the option play and the option play doesn't work in the NFL.
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His failings have been what were portrayed as his strengths (O-line/Offense/Recruiting) and I don't know how concerned we should be just yet.
I pointed this out last week and no one seemed too concerned. If there is one thing, one, that this guy should be able to get right it would be his Oline.
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I didn't think it was this bad. :yuck:
Sorry, "pissclams"
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People will turn on Prince MUCH faster than they would many other coaches we've hired.
I'm of the belief that the major reason that Prince won't get a very long leash from the fans is the manner at which he ran off/handled AE/Lopina/Webb. Although the national and maybe local media will inevitably say it's because of race. If Meier was throwing touchdown after touchdown, then we'd all say it didn't matter, but he hasn't and Freeman sure as hell isn't ready for what's coming his way. Also, as you say, the strength of Prince was supposed to help our weakness (o-line) and it appears they've regressed. I don't know how much is actually attributable to a "new scheme", but it seems like the o-line problems are the same as last year and the QB play is just as inconsistent. I mean, a new scheme shouldn't mean that Meier bounce passes balls to his receivers. Freeman is going to get murdered against NU, even if it takes Slashahan running on the field to do it.
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Race does have alot to do with it. There are multiple examples across the country where black coaches were fired way to early and often labled as dumb.
But the main reason why Prince will not be given a honeymoon period is because we still really care about football. With Wooldridge we were winning 11 games a year, beating our rival by 50+ points, so basketball just seemed so insignificant. It was a cute way to make way for spring football.
Having a bad football team really really hurts the KSU fan.
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Race does have alot to do with it. There are multiple examples across the country where black coaches were fired way to early and often labled as dumb.
If Prince gets fired it's because his performance, or lack thereof. Plus, the AD has to stick with him because it was his hire. If Jim Leavitt or Gary Patterson was in here and having the same problems people would probably be "okay" with it or at least less suicidal because they recognize that they have a track record as a head coach, not because they are white. Prince came in with entirely too many question marks and significantly less experience for people to give him the benefit of the doubt.
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Race does have alot to do with it. There are multiple examples across the country where black coaches were fired way to early and often labled as dumb.
If Prince gets fired it's because his performance, or lack thereof. Plus, the AD has to stick with him because it was his hire. If Jim Leavitt or Gary Patterson was in here and having the same problems people would probably be "okay" with it or at least less suicidal because they recognize that they have a track record as a head coach, not because they are white. Prince came in with entirely too many question marks and significantly less experience for people to give him the benefit of the doubt.
The proof is in the racial pudding.
Look at Ty Williangham. ND is one MSU meltdown from being in a complete sh1t storm.
Through 15 games they had the same record. What happened? Weiss got an insane contract extension and Ty was retained and eventually fired.
I am not saying that the situations are exactly similar but claiming race isn't a huge part of this is ignorant.
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Race does have alot to do with it. There are multiple examples across the country where black coaches were fired way to early and often labled as dumb.
If Prince gets fired it's because his performance, or lack thereof. Plus, the AD has to stick with him because it was his hire. If Jim Leavitt or Gary Patterson was in here and having the same problems people would probably be "okay" with it or at least less suicidal because they recognize that they have a track record as a head coach, not because they are white. Prince came in with entirely too many question marks and significantly less experience for people to give him the benefit of the doubt.
The proof is in the racial pudding.
Look at Ty Williangham. ND is one MSU meltdown from being in a complete sh1t storm.
Through 15 games they had the same record. What happened? Weiss got an insane contract extension and Ty was retained and eventually fired.
I am not saying that the situations are exactly similar but claiming race isn't a huge part of this is ignorant.
ding ding ding
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I am not saying that the situations are exactly similar but claiming race isn't a huge part of this is ignorant.
They aren't similar. ND was a case where they thought they were better than they really were. His race had nothing to do with it. Was Frank Solich being discriminated against because of his heigth? No. Again, a case of a program believing it was better than it really was. Callahan was a T-George personal foul from being fired after last season.
In this situation, Prince will end up getting all the time he needs because the AD hired him and it's Tim's ass as much as it is Prince's. He'll get canned because of his performance. Prince will get tons of heat because of the way he handled the AE situation and because we're now in a QB cluster f*** and it's obvious that there's not way in hell that Meier or Freeman were any better than AE.
The only saving grace for Tim is that he listened to Fogler and Huggy is here; otherwise we'd be sitting at 3-2 and looking forward to basketball season under Greg McDermott.
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I am not saying that the situations are exactly similar but claiming race isn't a huge part of this is ignorant.
They aren't similar. ND was a case where they thought they were better than they really were. His race had nothing to do with it. Was Frank Solich being discriminated against because of his heigth? No. Again, a case of a program believing it was better than it really was. Callahan was a T-George personal foul from being fired after last season.
In this situation, Prince will end up getting all the time he needs because the AD hired him and it's Tim's ass as much as it is Prince's. He'll get canned because of his performance. Prince will get tons of heat because of the way he handled the AE situation and because we're now in a QB cluster f*** and it's obvious that there's not way in hell that Meier or Freeman were any better than AE.
The only saving grace for Tim is that he listened to Fogler and Huggy is here; otherwise we'd be sitting at 3-2 and looking forward to basketball season under Greg McDermott.
1. If you think ND thinks they are a better program than they are that explains firing Ty, but it doesn't explain the Weiss contract.
2. Comparing race to height is so stupid I really don't know how to respond to it. Race isn't just another distinguishing characteristic, it has a history of systemic use for discrimination. So Mr. Statistics, explain why only a handful of black coaches coach in a sport dominated by blacks. The percentages speak for themselves.
3. I am not so sure that Tim Weiser isn't here for awhile because of Huggins. The women's basketball thing will play out and if that does indeed bring NCAA suspensions, then we'll see. But Weiser has hired three coaches, one of them has been a home run success without playing a game, another has been really bad so far and Prince has a jury still out. I think we get a new university president before Weiser is fired. He'll be here for 5 more years at least barring some NCAA scandal.
4. I think most people have already moved on with the AE situation. I think that will end up being the Wooldridge equivalent of driving off Travis Reynolds or Fred Peete, a damning footnote in an otherwise mountain of evidence against them.
5. I don't think Evridge is any better than Meier is this year. Straight face, totally mean it.
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1. If you think ND thinks they are a better program than they are that explains firing Ty, but it doesn't explain the Weiss contract.
2. Comparing race to height is so stupid I really don't know how to respond to it. Race isn't just another distinguishing characteristic, it has a history of systemic use for discrimination. So Mr. Statistics, explain why only a handful of black coaches coach in a sport dominated by blacks. The percentages speak for themselves.
3. I am not so sure that Tim Weiser isn't here for awhile because of Huggins. The women's basketball thing will play out and if that does indeed bring NCAA suspensions, then we'll see. But Weiser has hired three coaches, one of them has been a home run success without playing a game, another has been really bad so far and Prince has a jury still out. I think we get a new university president before Weiser is fired. He'll be here for 5 more years at least barring some NCAA scandal.
4. I think most people have already moved on with the AE situation. I think that will end up being the Wooldridge equivalent of driving off Travis Reynolds or Fred Peete, a damning footnote in an otherwise mountain of evidence against them.
5. I don't think Evridge is any better than Meier is this year. Straight face, totally mean it.
you must mean the baseball coach, i'm not ready to say that yet. but i do think he should be seriously re-evaluated and possibly fired if we don't make the big 12 tourney this year.
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1. If you think ND thinks they are a better program than they are that explains firing Ty, but it doesn't explain the Weiss contract.
2. Comparing race to height is so stupid I really don't know how to respond to it. Race isn't just another distinguishing characteristic, it has a history of systemic use for discrimination. So Mr. Statistics, explain why only a handful of black coaches coach in a sport dominated by blacks. The percentages speak for themselves.
3. I am not so sure that Tim Weiser isn't here for awhile because of Huggins. The women's basketball thing will play out and if that does indeed bring NCAA suspensions, then we'll see. But Weiser has hired three coaches, one of them has been a home run success without playing a game, another has been really bad so far and Prince has a jury still out. I think we get a new university president before Weiser is fired. He'll be here for 5 more years at least barring some NCAA scandal.
4. I think most people have already moved on with the AE situation. I think that will end up being the Wooldridge equivalent of driving off Travis Reynolds or Fred Peete, a damning footnote in an otherwise mountain of evidence against them.
5. I don't think Evridge is any better than Meier is this year. Straight face, totally mean it.
you must mean the baseball coach, i'm not ready to say that yet. but i do think he should be seriously re-evaluated and possibly fired if we don't make the big 12 tourney this year.
Yes. I agree. Let's again keep in mind this is baseball though, so I don't actually care.
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I think Prince's race made it easier for him to get hired and will make it so he gets fired quicker.
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So Mr. Statistics, explain why only a handful of black coaches coach in a sport dominated by blacks. The percentages speak for themselves
Still pissed cause you were wrong about the schedule thing, huh?
You want to know why there are only a handful of black coaches? The number of minority coaches and the reason for those coaches being fired are too separate conversations. As for the hiring, when an AD goes to look for a coach, he’s either looking for a current head coach or a coordinator. Quick, name the minority coordinators in the Big 12, outside of KSU…there's 2 (one at NU and one at OSU). Now try to do it on a national level. There aren’t very many at all and it’s already well documented how many minority head coaches are out there. If there’s racism then it starts with the coaches themselves and works to the AD. Coaches usually hire coaches that they know and that they’ve worked with….you essentially dealing with a circular problem. Minority coaches don’t get into the circle, therefore aren’t considered for jobs.
As for Weiss's contract, I can't explain it for the same reason I can't explain Mangino getting a contract extension. Sometimes people do stupid things.
And I can't believe, with a straight face, you said that Meier is better than Evridge.
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And I can't believe, with a straight face, you said that Meier is better than Evridge.
He is. Evridge sucked last year. Bill Snyder said Meier would have been his starter this year.
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He is. Evridge sucked last year. Bill Snyder said Meier would have been his starter this year.
Actually, even if DM would have been the opening day starter, if DM had the same types of performances as he's had thus far, AE would be the starter by now.
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Well, it's cute you think that way...but everyone looks good when they aren't the ones taking the snaps.
5-27....2-10...
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He is. Evridge sucked last year. Bill Snyder said Meier would have been his starter this year.
Actually, even if DM would have been the opening day starter, if DM had the same types of performances as he's had thus far, AE would be the starter by now.
Well, now that you've mastered the bolding of text feature of KSUfans.com, you might want to try the super-neato "quote feature".
It's very handy, easy to use, and makes reading the forums so much easier for all.
Simply locate the button labled "QUOTE" in the upper right hand portion of the post that you wish to quote, and click on it. It will then open a reply for you with the quote already pre-formatted for your convenience. As it appears that you don't often like to quote the entire post, simply delete the portion of the post to which you don't mean to respond directly.
Thanks!
The Management.
:poundon:
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He is. Evridge sucked last year. Bill Snyder said Meier would have been his starter this year.
Actually, even if DM would have been the opening day starter, if DM had the same types of performances as he's had thus far, AE would be the starter by now.
Well, now that you've mastered the bolding of text feature of KSUfans.com, you might want to try the super-neato "quote feature".
It's very handy, easy to use, and makes reading the forums so much easier for all.
Simply locate the button labled "QUOTE" in the upper right hand portion of the post that you wish to quote, and click on it. It will then open a reply for you with the quote already pre-formatted for your convenience. As it appears that you don't often like to quote the entire post, simply delete the portion of the post to which you don't mean to respond directly.
Thanks!
The Management.
:poundon:
No sh*t
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He is. Evridge sucked last year. Bill Snyder said Meier would have been his starter this year.
Actually, even if DM would have been the opening day starter, if DM had the same types of performances as he's had thus far, AE would be the starter by now.
Well, now that you've mastered the bolding of text feature of KSUfans.com, you might want to try the super-neato "quote feature".
It's very handy, easy to use, and makes reading the forums so much easier for all.
Simply locate the button labled "QUOTE" in the upper right hand portion of the post that you wish to quote, and click on it. It will then open a reply for you with the quote already pre-formatted for your convenience. As it appears that you don't often like to quote the entire post, simply delete the portion of the post to which you don't mean to respond directly.
Thanks!
The Management.
:poundon:
Hey genius, when I'm at work it won't let me use the quote feature so I have to use the bold. I'm not at work now so I can use it.
Thanks,
The subscriber
Never heard of such a thing... You can post at work, but you can't quote?!?!?! :lol:
At any rate, thanks for recognizing that I'm a genius! While most can grasp it in person, it's a rare occasion when someone picks up on it via the interweb thinga-ma-jig. Congrats!!
:beerchug:
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Well, it's cute you think that way...but everyone looks good when they aren't the ones taking the snaps.
5-27....2-10...
Yeah, Meier looked just fabulous in '04 as a RS-SO (143.6ypg) and AE looked so terrible as a RS-FR (151.7ypg). There's no reason to believe that AE would have made any progress.
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He seems like a wannabe politician.
He is so easy to hate since he is not my teams coach.
It seems that he might be easy to ridicule for you people since, lets face it, hes gotta be Snyder V 2.0
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Well, it's cute you think that way...but everyone looks good when they aren't the ones taking the snaps.
5-27....2-10...
Yeah, Meier looked just fabulous in '04 as a RS-SO (143.6ypg) and AE looked so terrible as a RS-FR (151.7ypg). There's no reason to believe that AE would have made any progress.
LOL.
Efficiency
Meier in 2004: 121.51
Evridge in 2005: 104.44 (btw, webb was at 145.00)
Why did evridge even play last year?
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Well, it's cute you think that way...but everyone looks good when they aren't the ones taking the snaps.
5-27....2-10...
Yeah, Meier looked just fabulous in '04 as a RS-SO (143.6ypg) and AE looked so terrible as a RS-FR (151.7ypg). There's no reason to believe that AE would have made any progress.
LOL.
Efficiency
Meier in 2004: 121.51
Evridge in 2005: 104.44 (btw, webb was at 145.00)
Why did evridge even play last year?
Meier in 2006: 99.4
So Meier is worse as a RS-Sr. than AE was as a RS-FR.
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AE in 2006: 0.00
Seeing as how D-M's efficiency has dropped by 17%, AE's efficiency would be 83.
But hey! His mom was really nice and he was great in the classroom! Thus....GREAT QB!
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AE in 2006: 0.00
Is 0.00 the legitimate shot that Prince gave AE at becoming the starter?
Meier as a RS-Sr. is worse than AE as a RS-Fr.
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AE in 2006: 0.00
Seeing as how D-M's efficiency has dropped by 17%, AE's efficiency would be 83.
But hey! His mom was really nice and he was great in the classroom! Thus....GREAT QB!
Just because DM sucks doesn't mean that AE's effeciency would have dropped. I never said AE was a great QB, only that he was better than DM. But hey, Dylan plays the bongos and has a really, really super outlook on life, thus...GREAT QB! :jerkoff:
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Prince won't have near the honeymoon Wooly received.
The over/under for Prince's honeymoon is 2 more games without an offensive touchdown.
Wooly's honeymoon last until several weeks past the ku game last spring.
under w/out an O td next week bring BV back in asap
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No, but the best assumption is that it would have dropped. If Dylan's dropped why would the QB who couldn't perform better under the previous system (much worse efficieny) not drop as well?
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No, but the best assumption is that it would have dropped. If Dylan's dropped why would the QB who couldn't perform better under the previous system (much worse efficieny) not drop as well?
It's not the best assumption, it's just the assumption that makes your argument work. DM, with more experience, is worse than AE with less experience. I can't believe we're arguing over who sucks the least. AE can atleast throw the ball 20 yards downfield without timing the throw like a punt.
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No, but the best assumption is that it would have dropped. If Dylan's dropped why would the QB who couldn't perform better under the previous system (much worse efficieny) not drop as well?
It's not the best assumption, it's just the assumption that makes your argument work. DM, with more experience, is worse than AE with less experience. I can't believe we're arguing over who sucks the least. AE can atleast throw the ball 20 yards downfield without timing the throw like a punt.
Of course it's the best assumption. Meier thrived more under one system, was more efficient...why would Evridge be the more dominant QB in another system?
You hit the nail on the head, we are arguing who sucks less. Thus, both QBs are pretty much worthless imo.
Soul Glo!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MI9vxBrb9CQ
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No, but the best assumption is that it would have dropped. If Dylan's dropped why would the QB who couldn't perform better under the previous system (much worse efficieny) not drop as well?
It's not the best assumption, it's just the assumption that makes your argument work. DM, with more experience, is worse than AE with less experience. I can't believe we're arguing over who sucks the least. AE can atleast throw the ball 20 yards downfield without timing the throw like a punt.
Of course it's the best assumption. Meier thrived more under one system, was more efficient...why would Evridge be the more dominant QB in another system?
You hit the nail on the head, we are arguing who sucks less. Thus, both QBs are pretty much worthless imo.
Soul Glo!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MI9vxBrb9CQ
:beerchug:
...feeling oh so silky smooth....just let it shine through....
Is there any way we can get a Daryl avatar?
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Dude, I just an incredible idea.
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No, but the best assumption is that it would have dropped. If Dylan's dropped why would the QB who couldn't perform better under the previous system (much worse efficieny) not drop as well?
It's not the best assumption, it's just the assumption that makes your argument work. DM, with more experience, is worse than AE with less experience. I can't believe we're arguing over who sucks the least. AE can atleast throw the ball 20 yards downfield without timing the throw like a punt.
Well, here is some research I did prior to this season on Meier vs. AE
I'm not really in the mood to debate this that in depth and do more research but here is the basis for the arguments I laid out before the season:
http://www.ksufans.com/forums/index.php?topic=2499.0
by the way:
Shout out to myself for being soooo smart:
July 27, 2006, 11:20:05 am
Hopefully Meier is back and healthy. If Freeman plays this year, I just might stop going to KSU football for awhile so I can save my sanity.
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No, but the best assumption is that it would have dropped. If Dylan's dropped why would the QB who couldn't perform better under the previous system (much worse efficieny) not drop as well?
It's not the best assumption, it's just the assumption that makes your argument work. DM, with more experience, is worse than AE with less experience. I can't believe we're arguing over who sucks the least. AE can atleast throw the ball 20 yards downfield without timing the throw like a punt.
Well, here is some research I did prior to this season on Meier vs. AE
I'm not really in the mood to debate this that in depth and do more research but here is the basis for the arguments I laid out before the season:
http://www.ksufans.com/forums/index.php?topic=2499.0
by the way:
Shout out to myself for being soooo smart:
July 27, 2006, 11:20:05 am
Hopefully Meier is back and healthy. If Freeman plays this year, I just might stop going to KSU football for awhile so I can save my sanity.
Not to nitpick, but shouldn't AE's "good game" be the 357yds he put up against A&M?
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No, but the best assumption is that it would have dropped. If Dylan's dropped why would the QB who couldn't perform better under the previous system (much worse efficieny) not drop as well?
It's not the best assumption, it's just the assumption that makes your argument work. DM, with more experience, is worse than AE with less experience. I can't believe we're arguing over who sucks the least. AE can atleast throw the ball 20 yards downfield without timing the throw like a punt.
Well, here is some research I did prior to this season on Meier vs. AE
I'm not really in the mood to debate this that in depth and do more research but here is the basis for the arguments I laid out before the season:
http://www.ksufans.com/forums/index.php?topic=2499.0
by the way:
Shout out to myself for being soooo smart:
July 27, 2006, 11:20:05 am
Hopefully Meier is back and healthy. If Freeman plays this year, I just might stop going to KSU football for awhile so I can save my sanity.
Not to nitpick, but shouldn't AE's "good game" be the 357yds he put up against A&M?
Well I guess, but we didn't even win the game. That was a corollary to a different argument.... As I said, these are just some numbers I put together, use them as you please.
I am just more and more depressed with how right I was about Freeman.
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The thing that will get Prince into a $hitstorm is continually telling everybody how brilliant and smart he is and then not doing $hit on the field.
He's already wearing thin with some people of power in Manhattan.
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Parish bought himself two, maybe three years automatically with the LOI signature of Freeman. He's now in a position to play the "inexperience" and "potential" card with Freeman now firmly at the helm. The same stunt Wooldridge pulled, except The Wool was a loveable loser liked by most of the low expectations K-State crowd that couldn't get enough of his aww shucks country bumkin attitude. I don't see that playing out with a guy as arrogant as Coach P.
I shutter to think about Parish going into next season, if the dude hadn't miraculously landed an Elite 11 recruit in his backyard at the QB position last year.
The scary thing is now it's becoming pretty apparent, his staff is marginal recruiters at best and that elite level talent is going to far more of the exception than the norm.
P.S. Speaking of coaching smart and not scared. People shouldn't estimate the brilliance of his move to throw Meier under the bus and go youth movement on us with the season slipping away, especially considering all the talk by Snyder pre-season that this program was left in good shape and that we've got the talent to compete for the North. Now Parish can lower the expectations and save his ass by saying it's going to take time to adjust to a young Qb and a new system.
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so much doom and gloom around here. but a lot of you predicted all of this, not that that was really bold or daring.
for whatever goofy reason i still have some optimism left, but it will definitely be gone after a loss this weekend. i wish i could still say i want to wait till seasons end to give a full review but thats getting tougher by the day. please surprise me this week cats! :ksu:
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Prince is a lot younger, and at times it sounds like he has a collection of soundbites of coaching cliches and has formulated them into his philosophy.
That's so true. I think if asked what type of offense he would like to run, he would say, "one with continuity".