KSUFans Archives
Sports => Frank Martin's OOD sponsored by the "Angriest Fans in America" => Topic started by: BigCat on January 15, 2009, 11:18:24 AM
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OK, bear with me on this. Even though both of them are turnover machines (Pullen specifically), we would be MUCH more effective on offense if we could get our talented bigs involved on offense, i.e. if we had one or two true point guards that could be rotated or on the floor simultaneously.
Thing that bugs me about Frank's noffense is that we only move the ball around the perimeter in an attempt to get Pull, Clem or Brown open. No in/out ball movement. Even if the non-talented bigs (generally Colon/Kent/Anderson) can't score, we can at least use them to draw double teams down low and kick the ball back out.
I'm tired of watching our guards take contested shots. Pullen and Clemente are shooters, but they really should only be allowed to shoot the ball if one of two things happens: A) The ball gets kicked back outside and they have a wide-open look, or; 2) They can come off of a screen while rotating inside with a clear lane to the basket.
So why not put a ban on them shooting the ball except in those instances, and the rest of their minutes are spent distributing. God forbid when they're knifing down the lane into 3-4 defenders that they kick the ball out to someone else.
It just seems like Samuels and Sutton are way underutilized on offense. I have no doubt that if we can get those guys open looks from 10-15 feet that they will knock them down.
Blast away... :ugh:
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I think we should dunk the basketball more. Just an imo though. fire away guys.
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Just curious; did you ever watch a Huggins-Cinci team play? Especially on offense?
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Just curious; did you ever watch a Huggins-Cinci team play? Especially on offense?
No, I did not. Pandemonium?
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Other than Kenyon Martin's Sr. year, Cinci offenses were rather "meh"
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Martin isn't using exactly the same schemes, but the philosophy seems to be similar; let playmakers make plays. Martin is setting up a system that right now uses a lot of ball screens b/c on paper the strength of this team is quick guards that can (in theory) make plays. Yeah, there should be more getting the bigs involved (and that seemed to be the plan against ku, especially in the 2nd half), but at times that will be difficult b/c a) our guards are probably looking too much to make plays for themselves and b) our bigs aren't that great. Of course that will change based on personnel, last year being a perfect example where the focus was getting the ball to Mike for shots, both in the paint and on the perimeter. And Martin's philosophy on guards seems pretty similar as well; he's not going to likely have a "traditional" PG whose only or main role is to distrube. He'd rather have guys like Clemente or Pullen who look to score and get others involved, but the problem with that is that sometimes they are going to look to score first.
Now, all that said, if you don't defend you don't play. And as has become clear if you watch us play, as long as you play defense, Frank will live with a mistake or two on offense (for a while at least). However, if you make mistakes on defense or aren't giving effort, you are out. The mandate is clear; play defense and rebound and then on offense you can have some freedom.
That can and does lead to some ugly play at times, but I think its pretty clear, especially this year, that Frank is taking a page out of Hugg's philosophy and applying it to his own program.
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not sure if your title makes sense to you or not. pullen, brown and clemente all play the pg position w/ clemente getting most of the minutes at that spot.
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not sure if your title makes sense to you or not. pullen, brown and clemente all play the pg position w/ clemente getting most of the minutes at that spot.
His question makes sense; in theory Pullen and Clemente get the most minutes at the PG spot, Brown is really there in spot duty. And he was wanting them to become higher assist guys with fewer TOs, and I hope they do as well. But I'm not expecting either to be a "traditional" PG and both will be allowed to continue to look for their shots. As a result while they should improve, they will likely still commit plenty of "sloppy" TOs during their careers b/c the system allows for it. As long as they play some defense.
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OK, bear with me on this. Even though both of them are turnover machines (Pullen specifically), we would be MUCH more effective on offense if we could get our talented bigs involved on offense, i.e. if we had one or two true point guards that could be rotated or on the floor simultaneously.
we have zero talented bigs. still doesn't mean there can't be attempts to get them the ball either to be kicked back out or to see if any of them might be lucky enough to be in a zone or something like colon was against ku.
disclaimer: in the zone for our bigs means they are just having an average night for the average big 12 big man.
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OK, bear with me on this. Even though both of them are turnover machines (Pullen specifically), we would be MUCH more effective on offense if we could get our talented bigs involved on offense, i.e. if we had one or two true point guards that could be rotated or on the floor simultaneously.
we have zero talented bigs.
Yeah I shouldn't have used the word 'bigs' for Sutton/Samuels. A lot of people consider forwards to be bigs; some are, some aren't. A 6-9/6-10 PF is obviously a big but S/S aren't that. Should have rephrased. When I said talented I was referring to them.
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OK, bear with me on this. Even though both of them are turnover machines (Pullen specifically), we would be MUCH more effective on offense if we could get our talented bigs involved on offense, i.e. if we had one or two true point guards that could be rotated or on the floor simultaneously.
we have zero talented bigs.
Yeah I shouldn't have used the word 'bigs' for Sutton/Samuels. A lot of people consider forwards to be bigs; some are, some aren't. A 6-9/6-10 PF is obviously a big but S/S aren't that. Should have rephrased. When I said talented I was referring to them.
I wouldn't consider Sutton a big though. He's a SF. I think in today's game a SF is much more like a guard than an interior player.
I agree that Samuels is our most talented inside player, but he's still getting acclimated to the game. He's not strong enough to be a back to the block/post up player right now. He's still going to get most of his points by "out-athleting" people for rebounds and loose balls and drawing fouls when attacking the basket. And Kent is a similar player, but not as athletic. Our only real back to the basket players right now are Colon and Anderson, and as we've seen they are going to get points at times and at other times really struggle.
So I see what you are saying, but even if we wanted to, I don't think we have the guys to be a true inside-out team. We still have to get the ball into someone on the block (and we do, probably more than you think), but its not going to be the focus; its going to be athletes making plays.
As for Sutton, I think he's been pretty disappointing. I thought he'd be much better at getting the ball on the wing and finding driving lanes this year, but he's not much of a threat right now.
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_FAN, I see your point with the theory of giving the guys some freedom in choosing their shots as long as they play defense. Very true that lockdown D and outrebounding the other team will take you a long way. At some point though, you've got to shorten that leash. If they take crap shots, then they should sit.
But the idea that sloppy turnovers and forced shots are ok on offense as long as they do their job at the other end of the floor is ludicrous. Not saying you're assessment of what Frank seems to be doing is wrong, just that that style of play is.
Where would they have been early in the ku game had ku not gotten 100% layups after stupid turnovers? Where might they have been if they had slowed the frack down and ran an offense rather than bolting down the floor and shooting 3's like they were coming from an assault rifle?
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_FAN, I see your point with the theory of giving the guys some freedom in choosing their shots as long as they play defense. Very true that lockdown D and outrebounding the other team will take you a long way. At some point though, you've got to shorten that leash. If they take crap shots, then they should sit.
But the idea that sloppy turnovers and forced shots are ok on offense as long as they do their job at the other end of the floor is ludicrous. Not saying you're assessment of what Frank seems to be doing is wrong, just that that style of play is.
Where would they have been early in the ku game had ku not gotten 100% layups after stupid turnovers? Where might they have been if they had slowed the frack down and ran an offense rather than bolting down the floor and shooting 3's like they were coming from an assault rifle?
These are good points, and IMO are more a direct result of a talent disparity than philosophy. If you don't get talented players (as Huggs consistently did at Cinci) it will not work. At all. And right now we don't have enough talent to stay with the OU's and ku's (even if they are down, they still have 2 all league players) of the world unless we play with very few errors on offense and defense. What I'm anxious to see is how this system will work against teams with more similar talent and Saturday should give us a good glimpse of it.
This team is not going to "slow the frack down" and if they do they will get beat worse. Including against teams with similar talent like Nebraska. We have to push the ball and get teams into 70+ possession games. Have to; half court games will only get us beat (or beat worse).
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slowing down would be the biggest disaster for this team. run and run and run. the only advantage this team may consistently hold over others is speed.
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This team is not going to "slow the frack down" and if they do they will get beat worse. Including against teams with similar talent like Nebraska. We have to push the ball and get teams into 70+ possession games. Have to; half court games will only get us beat (or beat worse).
QFT about us getting beat in the half court game. What I really meant about slowing down was making the posession last more than .04 seconds. Pullen/Clemente get the ball, blow down the court, don't attempt to make a pass, and then launch a three practically on the run with nobody there to rebound.
Fast breaks and short posessions can still be quality posessions. The difference is that teams like ku manage to pass the ball once if not twice in the transition. No doubt our athleticism/speed is what will win us games, but not with the way they're operating now.
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QFT about us getting beat in the half court game. What I really meant about slowing down was making the posession last more than .04 seconds. Pullen/Clemente get the ball, blow down the court, don't attempt to make a pass, and then launch a three practically on the run with nobody there to rebound.
this rarely happens
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This team is not going to "slow the frack down" and if they do they will get beat worse. Including against teams with similar talent like Nebraska. We have to push the ball and get teams into 70+ possession games. Have to; half court games will only get us beat (or beat worse).
QFT about us getting beat in the half court game. What I really meant about slowing down was making the posession last more than .04 seconds. Pullen/Clemente get the ball, blow down the court, don't attempt to make a pass, and then launch a three practically on the run with nobody there to rebound.
Fast breaks and short posessions can still be quality posessions. The difference is that teams like ku manage to pass the ball once if not twice in the transition. No doubt our athleticism/speed is what will win us games, but not with the way they're operating now.
Again, wait to see what happens against teams with similar talent. To me that will measure the success of what Frank is trying to do much more than games against OU, UT, or even ku this year.
I just don't want to see another Iowa. I'm hopeful we can avoid that against Nebraska.
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getting our bigs the ball on the block won't result in double teams, and the last thing we want is Sutton shooting the ball from anywhere outside of the rim. sorry to debunk your theory.
it was quite clear what martin's gameplan was tuesday night, get the ball down low. draw double teams, and fouls on aldrich. boy that worked like a friggin' charm. and now i think you are frank martin. hello frank martin.
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QFT about us getting beat in the half court game. What I really meant about slowing down was making the posession last more than .04 seconds. Pullen/Clemente get the ball, blow down the court, don't attempt to make a pass, and then launch a three practically on the run with nobody there to rebound.
this rarely happens
embellishing.
I didn't get to see the Iowa game, and didn't hear an analysis other than it was ugly.
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getting our bigs the ball on the block won't result in double teams, and the last thing we want is Sutton shooting the ball from anywhere outside of the rim. sorry to debunk your theory.
it was quite clear what martin's gameplan was tuesday night, get the ball down low. draw double teams, and fouls on aldrich. boy that worked like a friggin' charm. and now i think you are frank martin. hello frank martin.
I wish I was Frank. :notworthy: But that's why it's a theory. Not proven. Maybe already proven ineffective as you said. I've not seen Sutton or Samuels really get the opportunity to shoot enough in games to determine whether they can or can't. Never have a chance to establish a groove with P/C/B taking all the shots. I suspect they could (knock down shots) if given that opportunity.
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slutton can't shoot and won't develop a shot. his best option if he wanted to become and offensive threat would be to play a Hoskins type roll. he's got the athleticism and size for it. samuels was getting a lot of looks on the block in the 2nd half vs. ku and made the most of them which resulted in foul after foul by ku guys. he is not a jump shooter either, though I imagine he has more range (7-10ft) than Slutton.
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slutton can't shoot and won't develop a shot. his best option if he wanted to become and offensive threat would be to play a Hoskins type roll. he's got the athleticism and size for it. samuels was getting a lot of looks on the block in the 2nd half vs. ku and made the most of them which resulted in foul after foul by ku guys. he is not a jump shooter either, though I imagine he has more range (7-10ft) than Slutton.
Yeah Sutton will never be able to shoot. You recruit shooters. You don't make them.
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slutton can't shoot and won't develop a shot.
2-3 from behind the arc in the last two games!
(http://luckysjoint.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/green20light.jpg)
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Dominique Sutton. See Kenny Gregory. Although Dom hasn't shown he can score/shoot as well as Gregory. And Gregory didn't shoot well.
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I did not read any of the long posts in this thread. My answer is the same either way. It's a no. For me, the real question is about if they can be converted to scoring guards.
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1st can they Be made point guards answer is pullen is the only point guard on the team. Denis is only effective driving the lanes and dishing on breaks after that he has nothing to offer.
2nd the team has very poor spacing you havebig men that all try to post at the same time right by each other making it damn near impossible to drive the lane. thats why when pullen or denis gets inside they are surrounded by four people.
3rd this team needs to run a more motion offense movement at all times. that way you make the other team play defense and have to deal with our pressure that way by the end of the game they will be tired and make it easier for us to score and stop them.
finally when you have two scores on the team and one over achevier you are looking for trouble any wa.
Kent is terrible
sutton is scared
anderson is slow and has bad hands and to top it off he can't jump
Jamar is just too damn skinny
Fred can shoot thats it cant dribble makes terrible decisions and turnover pron
colon is just not blessed with good foot work but he gives you all out effort
Denis is fast thats it ok shooter ok passer and ok defender
Pullen can shoot settles for 3 's to much tries to make plays out of no plays and to many TO's
merriweather defense is good other then that get him off the court
awij can shoot plays good on ball D needs more minutes cant Be a threat on the bench
Frank needs to coach this team not make this team fit his system we don't have atletic Big's hard to run and gunthis team should be a slow you down grind it out team may be boring but it would be more effective and finally he needs to let people play throught there mistakes they will never get better if you don't let them
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i wish they'd shoot 3s every possession they get stuck in a half court situ. going inside the 3 pt line does not achieve positive results.
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Thing that bugs me about Frank's noffense is that we only move the ball around the perimeter in an attempt to get Pull, Clem or Brown open. No in/out ball movement. Even if the non-talented bigs (generally Colon/Kent/Anderson) can't score, we can at least use them to draw double teams down low and kick the ball back out.
I think the problem with that is the fact that Frank may not trust the bigs to do more than catch and shoot. Asking them to catch and pass, catch and dribble, or catch and make any decisions may be more responsibility than he's comfortable giving them.
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i wish they'd shoot 3s every possession they get stuck in a half court situ. going inside the 3 pt line does not achieve positive results.
I wish they would run nothing but the Fred Brown transition 3 offense. :dunno:
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Dominique Sutton. See Kenny Gregory. Although Dom hasn't shown he can score/shoot as well as Gregory. And Gregory didn't shoot well.
By his senior year, Dom will be shooting as well as Gregory did. Not that that is something to be excited about.
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Not sure why any team would double our "bigs" since they are not really a scoring threat.
We do need to have alot more movement on offense..way too much standing around.
Kent would be more effective if he did not try to draw a foul everytime he gets the ball and rather just go up strong or turn and go straight up rather than to draw contact..which causes him to turn the ball over too much.
Clemente...yes he is quick and can get to the rim but he needs to be able to finish better or get the bigs involved better.
Pullen looks like he is trying to hard to be the scorer on the team...and ends up making poor decisions.
Someone said that Frank needs to coach his team rather that make his team fit his concept and that is CORRECT....it seems that sometimes he will end up with 1 or no scorers on the floor because he wants better defense..great defense is critical but you have to be able to put the ball in the hole also.
Remember this team is still young..most still playing like freshmen because the relied upon Beasley and Walker all of last year and none of them learned how to score last year...They will improve as the season goes...and it must start this Saturday in Lincoln.
:ksu: