KSUFans Archives
Sports => Frank Martin's OOD sponsored by the "Angriest Fans in America" => Topic started by: michigancat on February 08, 2006, 10:22:24 AM
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Shut the &@#% up about how good KSU would be if we hadn't let Dana Altman go.
Please.
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Yeah, its a little rediculous.
Take away 2 conference games and give Wooly 2 more wins in each of his first 4 seasons, and he probably has an NIT trip or two. The thing Altman did different was have that one .500 season which back then was enough for an NCAA trip.
Altman's conference records:
3-11 .214
5-9 .357
7-7 .500
4-10 .286
19-37 .339
Wooly's first 4:
4-12 .250
6-10 .375
4-12 .250
6-10 .375
20-44 .312
Not saying Wooly is better than Altman, just that Altman's league record wasn't much better than Wooly's, and that's just Wooly's first 4 years. Wooly's league % now is .330. When it comes to our last 3 coaches, we've managed 2 .500 seasons and none of them won more than 35% of their games in the league.
Altman has developed into a great coach, but there is no way of guaranteeing he would've turned out successful here had we been "Wooldridge patient" with him.
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Take at look at these records; the numbers represent each coach's home and road winning % in league games.
Altman: .464 home, .214 road.
Asbury: .522 home, .089 road.
Wooldridge: .500 home, .156 road.
The downfall of this basketball program has been the inability to be a solid home team. I've said before, there are lots of coaches that don't win a lot on the road, but they win 60% or 70% of their games at home and have success. We have .500 teams at home and below .200 on the road. That's a formula for a pretty bad basketball program if there is one.
Wow. And that has pretty much been my career as a K-State basketball fan.
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But....but.....but....Altman went to the NIT twice!!!!
Those are some sad statistics.
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But I'd take Altman back now in a heartbeat. I think he's learned how to coach and maintain a program. Likelyhood of that is quite small though.
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Here's a challenge.
Try to think of a coach with a similar career as Altman's. How many D1 coaches can you think of that through 8 seasons had barely a .500 record (Altman was 119-116 after starting 36-49 his first 3 seasons at Creighton) then suddenly turned into perennial 20-game winners?
There are very few Altman's. Most of your successful coaches won at small levels, medium levels, and big levels. They were winners whereever they were nearly from the start. Altman's career isn't common at all.
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Rusty, if you want to use the stats I waste valuable time putting together, at least give me credit. :)
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Rusty, if you want to use the stats I waste valuable time putting together, at least give me credit. :)
Agreed. That was pretty C/L on R/KSU's part imo.
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Here's a challenge.
Try to think of a coach with a similar career as Altman's. How many D1 coaches can you think of that through 8 seasons had barely a .500 record (Altman was 119-116 after starting 36-49 his first 3 seasons at Creighton) then suddenly turned into perennial 20-game winners?
There are very few Altman's. Most of your successful coaches won at small levels, medium levels, and big levels. They were winners whereever they were nearly from the start. Altman's career isn't common at all.
Lorenzo Romar at Washington is probably the closest to what you described. He was 103-105 through seven seasons at Pepperdine, SLU, and Washington, and 122-117 after 8. Iif you look at most mediocre major-conference coaches, they usually have fairly mediocre records at the mid-majors or smaller. Steve Alford, Barry Collier, and Ernie Kent immediately come to mind. Dan Monson is an example of what can happen if you hire someone with success over a very short period of time.
I, too, would take Altman back in a heartbeat.
I think I get the credit for the stats since I had to compute your confusing home and away stats for Asbury.
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With the media guide online now, it only takes about 10 minutes or so of wasted time to do that. Online media guides have made life much easier for stat nerds like us.
With the stat cred, I'm cool. Not a big Huggins fan, but cool. :)
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Here's a stat for you, Huggins hater:
.759
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He's a winner no doubt and I don't hate him. Its not like I'd quit being a fan if we hired him. He's just not my top choice and I don't see anyway he'd come here even if we enquired. He is simply not a realistic choice for me. Neither is Richardson or Majerus for that matter. I think he's a NE and "city" guy who I think will try hard to stay in that part of the country when he coaches again. We'd have a better shot at Richardson or Majerus if we go that direction, which I doubt we will.
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The Big 8 was better then than the Big 12 is now.
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He's a winner no doubt and I don't hate him. Its not like I'd quit being a fan if we hired him. He's just not my top choice and I don't see anyway he'd come here even if we enquired. He is simply not a realistic choice for me. Neither is Richardson or Majerus for that matter. I think he's a NE and "city" guy who I think will try hard to stay in that part of the country when he coaches again. We'd have a better shot at Richardson or Majerus if we go that direction, which I doubt we will.
Huggins a NE city guy? He's spending his time off fishing in a town with fewer than 600 people.
It's too bad he isn't a realistic candidate.*
*Even though he's probably more realistic than McDermott, Hobbs, or Anderson.
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I'm not saying the guy might not go back out to his roots and fish and hunt, etc.
I'm saying he's coached and recruited to the NE and to cities most of his career.
Cinci: 330K
Akron: 215K
He hasn't coached outside the state of Ohio in at least the last 24 years.
My order of "realistic" candidates from some of the names out there: (just my perception of our availability to get them and their possible interest in us)
Lowery
McDermott
Hobbs
Anderson
Richardson
Huggins
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Mine's not that much different from yours. I consider Ohio more midwest than NE, I guess. I don't think recruiting would be much of a concern. Yeah, Akron is a city, but it's...welll....Akron.
1. Lowery
2. Richardson (desperate for a job, IMO)
3. Huggins
(Too many big names will go after the following:)
4. McDermott
5. Hobbs
6. Anderson
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I haven't been paying that much attention; outside of Missouri, who are we likely to be competing with?
Missouri might be the best job out there. I would think we'll be one of the top 5-10 jobs out there.
As far as Ohio being midwest.
Ohio: Population 11,353,000; 44,828 square miles.
Kansas: Population 2,688,000; 82,282 square miles.
Slightly different population densities there.
You're arguements for Nolan are much better. You even got me on the Fayetteville diversity deal. :)
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I haven't been paying that much attention; outside of Missouri, who are we likely to be competing with?
Missouri might be the best job out there. I would think we'll be one of the top 5-10 jobs out there.
You're probably right...but some possibilities (in rough order, as not all of these are necessarily better):
Indiana
Iowa (doubtful, but Alford is always on the hot seat.)
Wake Forest (long shot, but they are in last place in the ACC - someone mentioned Prosser to Jefferey Martin)
Notre Dame
Oregon
Mizzou
Cincy
Clemson
Memphis (if Calipari goes league)
Arizona State
Nebraska
Vandy (doubtful)
Providence
Northwestern
Penn State (doubtful)
Washington State
Oregon State
That doesn't take into consideration top programs having a coach unexpectedly retire or jump to the NBA and create a domino effect. IMO, KSU could easily get a better coach than Washington State and Oregon State. I think the rest could get just as good a coach or better.
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From your list the "definately better" would be Cinci, Notre Dame, Wake, Memphis, and probably Missouri.
I think we could hold our own with most of the others meaning we would have to battle, but we could beat them out for a coach.
I didn't list Iowa or Indiana b/c I think both are pretty safe.
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From your list the "definately better" would be Cinci, Notre Dame, Wake, Memphis, and probably Missouri.
I think we could hold our own with most of the others meaning we would have to battle, but we could beat them out for a coach.
I didn't list Iowa or Indiana b/c I think both are pretty safe.
I've heard Oregon is willing to throw $2 mil/year to Few. They have bigtime $$$$$$$$$.
I also think Cincy, ND, Memphis, and MU would all contact McDermott. That's pretty stiff competition.
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i think altman is unique largely because few coaches get the opportunity that he has had. usually if you haven't won fairly consistently in your first 8 years you don't get a sustained second chance elsewhere. there have, on the other hand, been quite a few coaches that have been successful at a high level, ony to go to a lower level school and sustain mediocrity from then out. tom davis, steve fisher, dan monson (ok cheap shot), etc.
i truly do hope whoever ksu hires takes a good hard look at todd bozeman as their top recruiting assistant. and no, i don't just bring his name up to mock rusty and his huggins infatuation. bozeman can recruit talent to anywhere. he would own KC, and pull plenty of players in from elsewhere. someone will let him give a program a 2-3 year recruiting boost before he gets another head coaching chance, why not ksu?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/05/31/AR2005053101457.html
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Who do you consider a bigger risk, sys:
Huggins as HC or Bozeman as an Asst?
I think you could make a reasonable argument that Huggins would be riskier, mainly because Bozeman paid a HUGE price and would be watched very closely by the NCAA.
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i don't think either would be terribly risky. it's just human nature - you drive slow the next hour after getting pulled over.
it might be hard for huggins to hire bozeman though. that would be interesting in terms of pr.
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I haven't been paying that much attention; outside of Missouri, who are we likely to be competing with?
Missouri might be the best job out there. I would think we'll be one of the top 5-10 jobs out there.
You're probably right...but some possibilities (in rough order, as not all of these are necessarily better):
Indiana
Iowa (doubtful, but Alford is always on the hot seat.)
Wake Forest (long shot, but they are in last place in the ACC - someone mentioned Prosser to Jefferey Martin)
Notre Dame
Oregon
Mizzou
Cincy
Clemson
Memphis (if Calipari goes league)
Arizona State
Nebraska
Vandy (doubtful)
Providence
Northwestern
Penn State (doubtful)
Washington State
Oregon State
That doesn't take into consideration top programs having a coach unexpectedly retire or jump to the NBA and create a domino effect. IMO, KSU could easily get a better coach than Washington State and Oregon State. I think the rest could get just as good a coach or better.
Arkansas?