KSUFans Archives
Sports => Frank Martin's OOD sponsored by the "Angriest Fans in America" => Topic started by: michigancat on January 22, 2008, 09:30:41 PM
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"Brilliant."
http://www.basketballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=101
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Coach Frank.
Jesus, a coaching upgrade over thuggs.
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Durantian
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In watching the replay of the game on DVR, I was constantly amazed that the announcers, two former D-I players, were baffled by Frank Martin's offense-defense switches. Both repeatedly said they would "err on the side of caution" with regards to Beasley. It wasn't until halftime, when a producer likely clued them into what was happening, did they mention "platooning."
This was Frank Martin's best game yet and I only hope for more of the same.
:)
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Seriously, I have never seen a coach use offense-defense substitutions like Frank has this year. Its not like saturday was the first time, several times this year he's done it in the first half. Its not like other coaches don't do it, but usually its end of game situations to get shooters in for bigs. Frank's use to save fouls or to get better defenders vs ballhandlers in (he used Young and Pullen earlier in the year for example) is pretty savy.
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While I loved Frank's substitutions, I'm not sure why KenPom calls them "brilliant." It seems pretty basic to me...you sub Beasley in during any dead ball in which an offensive posession seems likely to follow (ie, out of a timeout when you get the ball, off an aTm turnover, before an opponent free throw) and out during the opposite.
I guess we don't see many coaches do that type of thing. But to me that says that a lot of coaches are actually pretty dumb (which is another theory of mine), not that Frank is brilliant. But hey, at least he's brilliant when compared to other coaches, which is what really matters.
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I noticed he works a lot more defensive possessions for Sutton as well.
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It's not that subbing for offense and defense that much outside of the end of a half rarely happens. It never happens. It was a totally ballsy move.
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While I loved Frank's substitutions, I'm not sure why KenPom calls them "brilliant." It seems pretty basic to me...you sub Beasley in during any dead ball in which an offensive posession seems likely to follow (ie, out of a timeout when you get the ball, off an aTm turnover, before an opponent free throw) and out during the opposite.
I guess we don't see many coaches do that type of thing. But to me that says that a lot of coaches are actually pretty dumb (which is another theory of mine), not that Frank is brilliant. But hey, at least he's brilliant when compared to other coaches, which is what really matters.
Seriously, the most common use is end of game situations to get outside shooters or FT shooters into the game for defenders during a likely offensive possession. And there isn't near as much "risk" b/c there is likely to be a stoppage of play b/c of a foul, etc. To do it midway through the first half is pretty rare. Not only would many coaches not do it b/c you could still get a foul and get isolated on defense to try to force one, but some might also think it would take a team out of rhythm to an extent. Granted, its not certain that it will turn out as well every time like it did saturday, but its still a pretty revolutionary thing to use like Frank does, and against aTm was not the first time I've thought that. It just worked out better against aTm than it has any other time this year.
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While I loved Frank's substitutions, I'm not sure why KenPom calls them "brilliant." It seems pretty basic to me...you sub Beasley in during any dead ball in which an offensive posession seems likely to follow (ie, out of a timeout when you get the ball, off an aTm turnover, before an opponent free throw) and out during the opposite.
I guess we don't see many coaches do that type of thing. But to me that says that a lot of coaches are actually pretty dumb (which is another theory of mine), not that Frank is brilliant. But hey, at least he's brilliant when compared to other coaches, which is what really matters.
i agree completely. although i usually spin the other way (all d1 coaches know bball, it's a simple game, hence x+o experience is incredibly overrated), coaches are really stupid in a lot of ways.
one thing that drives me crazy is why college coaches don't play 2for1 at the end of the 1st half (and occasionally of games). nba coaches do it all the time, and the logic is infallible.
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While I loved Frank's substitutions, I'm not sure why KenPom calls them "brilliant." It seems pretty basic to me...you sub Beasley in during any dead ball in which an offensive posession seems likely to follow (ie, out of a timeout when you get the ball, off an aTm turnover, before an opponent free throw) and out during the opposite.
I guess we don't see many coaches do that type of thing. But to me that says that a lot of coaches are actually pretty dumb (which is another theory of mine), not that Frank is brilliant. But hey, at least he's brilliant when compared to other coaches, which is what really matters.
i agree completely. although i usually spin the other way (all d1 coaches know bball, it's a simple game, hence x+o experience is incredibly overrated), coaches are really stupid in a lot of ways.
one thing that drives me crazy is why college coaches don't play 2for1 at the end of the 1st half (and occasionally of games). nba coaches do it all the time, and the logic is infallible.
you are right but i think that with the longer ncaa shot clock it does make it slightly more difficult to play the 2 for 1 than in the nba. plus the ability to call a time out and start at halfcourt in the nba vs. college when that is not an option changes things as well.
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Seriously, I have never seen a coach use offense-defense substitutions like Frank has this year. Its not like saturday was the first time, several times this year he's done it in the first half. Its not like other coaches don't do it, but usually its end of game situations to get shooters in for bigs. Frank's use to save fouls or to get better defenders vs ballhandlers in (he used Young and Pullen earlier in the year for example) is pretty savy.
Didn't Huggins do the same thing last year? I seem to remember him doing that during in tight games, like the Mizzou and Baylor games.
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Seriously, I have never seen a coach use offense-defense substitutions like Frank has this year. Its not like saturday was the first time, several times this year he's done it in the first half. Its not like other coaches don't do it, but usually its end of game situations to get shooters in for bigs. Frank's use to save fouls or to get better defenders vs ballhandlers in (he used Young and Pullen earlier in the year for example) is pretty savy.
Didn't Huggins do the same thing last year? I seem to remember him doing that during in tight games, like the Mizzou and Baylor games.
End of game situations, yes. I don't remember seeing it much at the 10 minute mark in the first half though. I could be wrong.
Agree on 2 for 1s at the end of the first half.
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What made it brilliant is the fact that it worked. Good job by Beasley and crew for being able to come in off the bench repeatedly for one possession and make something happen. And one would think the reason they were able to do that is coaching and preparation.
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What made it brilliant is the fact that it worked. Good job by Beasley and crew for being able to come in off the bench repeatedly for one possession and make something happen. And one would think the reason they were able to do that is coaching and preparation they're really fracking good.
fyp
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What made it brilliant is the fact that it worked. Good job by Beasley and crew for being able to come in off the bench repeatedly for one possession and make something happen. And one would think the reason they were able to do that is coaching and preparation they're really fracking good.
fyp
I doubt they were used in such a way in HS/AAU. Look how productive Kent was when subbed in defensively. Ditto Young when he was subbed. They weren't that effective last year in short bursts. Something else has to account for the improvement.
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you're right, any improvement in the games since playing aau ball should be directly attributed to frank martin's excellent x's and o's.
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It'll be interesting to see if Frank Martin continues to use this strategy (dont see why he wouldnt) if the other guys continue to step up like they have. He realized after GM game that w/o Beas on the court this team was pretty much screwed, but as the other guys continue to progress and are able to keep the lead/deficit where it was when Beas went out I wonder if he'll continue to "platoon" him. It can be risky if he can't get him out and Beas picks up a cheapy, but thats a risk Frank Martin had to take.
Frank Martin game management :love:
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you're right, any improvement in the games since playing aau ball should be directly attributed to frank martin's excellent x's and o's.
Nah, guys just improve outside of practice. Every passing day the finger of God touches Beasley's left arm and he takes another step towards immortality.
Kent as well.
Colon - not so much.
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guys get better by playing everyday with better players.
what has michael beasley really learned from frank martin in the two and a half months that frank has been masterfully sculpting him? tia.
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Well, the area already mentioned. Subbing and contributing.
And the team's bigger than Beasley, as our early losses demonstrated.
But you're exactly right. No need for a coaching staff. Just give them a ball and a gym, and the players will continue to get better.
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Well, the area already mentioned. Subbing and contributing.
And the team's bigger than Beasley, as our early losses demonstrated.
But you're exactly right. No need for a coaching staff. Just give them a ball and a gym, and the players will continue to get better.
strawman. but since you went there, i'll take the talent, you can have the coaches. i scratch the surface and discover a woolite, my lucky day.
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Not a woolite, I didn't like the hire from Day 1.
And he proves the point. A crap coach can underachieve with good talent. So does Bill Self.
Surely you would agree that the talent on ku's roster shouldn't result in first round exits. Clearly coaching has a very significant impact.
Out of curiosity, have you ever seen an AAU game?
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Not a woolite, I didn't like the hire from Day 1.
And he proves the point. A crap coach can underachieve with good talent. So does Bill Self.
Surely you would agree that the talent on ku's roster shouldn't result in first round exits. Clearly coaching has a very significant impact.
Out of curiosity, have you ever seen an AAU game?
i've watched quite a bit of AAU ball. surprisingly, I asked the very same question to this board about 4 months ago when you were living on the football board, but that's beside the point. i'll let you argue with yourself just exactly how much Mike Beasley has learned about substitution patterns from coach frank. please don't mind that our team has been efficient all year and that we are/continue to be independent of martin's substitution patterns.
edited to LOL @ you thinking we had good talent under wooly.
we had a few good players that left minutes after arriving in mhk, and a few good players that stayed, but to describe the players in whole we had under wooly as either "good" or "talented" is low bbiq.
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I have not seen the offense defense thing done much outside of the end of games but we're in kind of a unique situation with Beasley. He's so much better then anything we have off the bench on the offensive end that you've got to find ways to keep him out there. Not saying it isn't smart by Martin but at the same time I think just about any coach with a talent like Beasley would find ways to get him on the floor on the offensive end.
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Always always always go w/ the best recruiter. That's really all I want from a college coach.
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Huggins was too drunk to figure this out. Loser!