KSUFans Archives
Fan Life => The Endzone Dive => Topic started by: michigancat on June 27, 2006, 09:46:48 AM
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AZCat, Slimz, etc.
1) How poor do you get?
2) How long does it take?
3) Do you like being a lawyer?
tiagrcoatbi
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Programs are typically three years. ku has a program you can complete in three summers and two years (at least they did a few years ago). I only considered it and didn't go.
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I only considered it and didn't go.
Loser
I think uMKC's program is the cheapest around, if you're worried about the cost.
I took the LSAT, fun times. :sleep:
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(http://washburnlaw.edu/graphics/wusllogo-304x94.jpg)
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I only considered it and didn't go.
Loser
You misread. I said that I didn't go. Even if I did, I wouldn't be practicing now because it sucks so bad that one ever sticks with it.
:D
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http://www.mne.ksu.edu/graduate
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http://www.mne.ksu.edu/graduate
uh, no.
I don't really like engineering.
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I only considered it and didn't go.
Loser
You misread. I said that I didn't go. Even if I did, I wouldn't be practicing now because it sucks so bad that one ever sticks with it.
:D
Loser
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http://www.mne.ksu.edu/graduate
uh, no.
I don't really like engineering.
Really? crap. When did this hit you? :sad:
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http://www.mne.ksu.edu/graduate
uh, no.
I don't really like engineering.
Really? S**T. When did this hit you? :sad:
Eh, the last six months or so. I'm kind of resigned to the fact that I'll be bored with any job other than KSU MBB's shooting coach, so I figure I might as well be bored and get paid.
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http://www.kumc.edu/
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http://www.kumc.edu/
"University General Education courseCHM 230. Chemistry II.* (4) I, II, S. Second course of a two-semester study of the principles of chemistry and the properties of the elements and their compounds. Three hours lec. and three hours lab a week. Pr.: CHM 210." = C :(
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http://www.kumc.edu/
(http://www.ksufans.com/forums/Themes/KSUFans/images/post/thumbup.gif)
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Ha! You never took chm 2 did you? :)
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my sister went to umkc.
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Ha! You never took chm 2 did you? :)
I got a c.
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(http://www.ksu.edu/chem/personnel/faculty/nongrad/paKSUtelis.jpg)
OWNED!
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HOLY MARIA!
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1) How poor do you get?
I'm about $50,000 in the hole. Of course, I didn't work at all and came right out of college, so I didn't have any money saved. Fortunately, I'm paying it all back at the exorbitant interest rate of 3.5%. If you get good grades and get one of the plum summer associate spots at a big firm, you can pretty much pay your way through.
2) How long does it take?
Three years, unless you want to barrel straight through the summers, like chum said. But see above regarding summer associates.
3) Do you like being a lawyer?
I *always* like being a lawyer. There are days I'm less than thrilled with my job, but I could fix that by getting a new one. The nice thing about law is that there really is so much different stuff you can do with a degree, even within the legal profession (let alone the jobs it helps with outside practicing law). There are so many different areas of practice, or general practice...you can work for a big corporate firm, or go solo, or work for a company, or the government. That's one of the big things that attracted me to the profession: the variety.
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I'm about $50,000 in the hole. Of course, I didn't work at all and came right out of college, so I didn't have any money saved. Fortunately, I'm paying it all back at the exorbitant interest rate of 3.5%. If you get good grades and get one of the plum summer associate spots at a big firm, you can pretty much pay your way through.
Could you own a house and have a family at the same time? UMKC has a flex program that is part time and takes 5 years max.
3) Do you like being a lawyer?
I *always* like being a lawyer. There are days I'm less than thrilled with my job, but I could fix that by getting a new one. The nice thing about law is that there really is so much different stuff you can do with a degree, even within the legal profession (let alone the jobs it helps with outside practicing law). There are so many different areas of practice, or general practice...you can work for a big corporate firm, or go solo, or work for a company, or the government. That's one of the big things that attracted me to the profession: the variety.
See, that's why I got into ME. I didn't have any idea what I wanted to be when I grow up (still don't, obviously). Now, however, I'm three jobs deep in 2 1/2 years after graduation, underpaid at a job I don't like, and might want to change careers altogether.
If you don't mind me asking, how much did your first job pay, ballpark? I'm not ashamed of saying money would be a big influence on whether or not I look closer at this.
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Could you own a house and have a family at the same time? UMKC has a flex program that is part time and takes 5 years max.
I'm sure you could figure something out, especially if you have another source of income. If you go to UMKC, you'd better want to work in KC. From what I've heard, that degree doesn't travel especially well, but that could just be rumor.
If you don't mind me asking, how much did your first job pay, ballpark? I'm not ashamed of saying money would be a big influence on whether or not I look closer at this.
My job is on the low end, because I was looking for things besides money. The range, starting out, is generally $35,000-$180,000, which kinda breaks down as follows:
$35,000 - entry-level county government positions (40-hour workweeks, generally...low pressure)
$40,000 - entry-level state government positions. (see above)
$40,000-$50,000 - new associates in firms in towns like Lawrence or Manhattan (50 hour workweeks, generally)
$80,000 - $120,000 - new associates in firms in Kansas City/Wichita (60-80 hour workweeks)
$120,000 - $180,000 - new associates in firms in Chicago, Dallas, DC, NY (168 hour workweeks)
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Rusty, how much did you get straight out of KSU?
Man, I remember you saying how much you loved your job/the city you lived in about a year ago on the phog ape board.
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Rusty, how much did you get straight out of KSU?
Man, I remember you saying how much you loved your job/the city you lived in about a year ago on the phog ape board.
45k out of KSU. Job was OK a year ago. Love KC. My first job in Manhattan was great. Leaving when I did was a mistake, blah, blah, blah.
Slimz, thanks. After I asked you, I checked UMKC's salary #'s, and the mean and median starting salary was in the 50's. Probably not worth 50k of debt and 3 years of eating Ramen. I could handle an 80 hr workweek for 100K, though.
For all interested, I'm also considering getting an MBA, staying in engineering and finding a better job, starting my own little company on the side, becoming a teacher/coach ($$$ an issue), and figuring out a way to be a full-time BB coach (half-serious on that one). Maybe I could coach the next Michael Beasley!
This board needs more old people.
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That just doesn't seem like enough $$$ for the hours put in.
I'm content with making less money and working in a low pressure environment. It's just not worth it. IMO.
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I have a four-day workweek. It &@#%ing rules.
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That just doesn't seem like enough $$$ for the hours put in.
I'm content with making less money and working in a low pressure environment. It's just not worth it. IMO.
Braggin rights.
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I have a four-day workweek. It F**King rules.
I do too during the summer, although it kinda sucks. 10 hour days are not my thing.
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That just doesn't seem like enough $$$ for the hours put in.
I'm content with making less money and working in a low pressure environment. It's just not worth it. IMO.
Braggin rights.
What good is all the extra money when you don't have the time to enjoy it?
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I do too during the summer, although it kinda sucks. 10 hour days are not my thing.
The way I see it, eight hours just about ruins an entire day anyway, so it's not that big of a deal to go ahead and stay for an additional two hours. (Plus, my commute kinda sucks, so the less I do it, the better.)
The thing that suprises me most about a four-day workweek is that I don't find Friday (or Monday) to be the best day off. I think Wednesday is the best day to have off. I always seem to find myself thinking about what I'm going to do on my day off, and this is never more than one day away. I feel like I'm rarely at work.
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This board needs more old people.
Wrong. This board needs 40 more "ds43fan"'s
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I do too during the summer, although it kinda sucks. 10 hour days are not my thing.
The way I see it, eight hours just about ruins an entire day anyway, so it's not that big of a deal to go ahead and stay for an additional two hours. (Plus, my commute kinda sucks, so the less I do it, the better.)
The thing that suprises me most about a four-day workweek is that I don't find Friday (or Monday) to be the best day off. I think Wednesday is the best day to have off. I always seem to find myself thinking about what I'm going to do on my day off, and this is never more than one day away. I feel like I'm rarely at work.
That's an interesting way of thinking about it. I just find myself looking at the clock around 4:00 pm struggling to make it the rest of the day. I like Friday or Mondays off so I can travel a bit more. I have it worked out now where I will work Mon-thursday one week and tues-friday the next week. 4 day weekends, baby.
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What good is all the extra money when you don't have the time to enjoy it?
It's not just the extra working hours either. If you are working your butt of, you may be too drained to really enjoy yourself when you're not working. I was at 55-60 hours for a period of time and it was no fun. Screw the money.
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This board needs more old people.
Wrong. This board needs 40 more "ds43fan"'s
That is the equivelant to 1 more "ksuno1stunner".
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What good is all the extra money when you don't have the time to enjoy it?
It's not just the extra working hours either. If you are working your butt of, you may be too drained to really enjoy yourself when you're not working. I was at 55-60 hours for a period of time and it was no fun. Screw the money.
And then you have the people who work the long hours, and then work during their "time off."
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What good is all the extra money when you don't have the time to enjoy it?
That's what I think. I make half of what a lot of my friends do, but:
1) I can work from home pretty much whenever I feel like it. They can't.
2) I get my evenings and weekends. They're working until 6 or 7 at night and frequently on Saturdays and Sundays.
3) I have my own, personal caseload and get to decide how to approach it. They get to review contracts and do crap work for the partners and older associates. I remember talking to one of my friends who was excited about 4 months into our jobs that she was going to get to start to work on a summary judgment motion. By then, I think I was working on my second or third. I get to handle everything involved in the litigation, while they usually only get to work on a part of it.
4) I can take vacation whenever I want, as long as I've planned my cases around it.
5) I'm getting great experience and, when I decide that I want to make more money, I should be able to find a place to do so without much trouble.
With all that, I'm still managing to save money. Granted, I don't have a family nor an extravagant lifestyle, but I live comfortably and I'm enjoying what's left of my "young professional" years right now.
That being said, I'm starting to itch for a job change, so I'll probably be looking here pretty soon.
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:beerchug:
I don't think I have the means of finding a new career. I'd have to go through 5 or 6 years of night classes at this rate, and i'd probably make less money starting out doing anything than what I am now. Oh well.
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That being said, Law School is for mongoloids, as is this thread.
Anyone who has read this thread or posted in this thread is a mongoloid.
I have not read this thread and did not post this.
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Pre-Law students at KSU are garbage.
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Rusty - before I answer what area is your undergrad degree in and do you have any graduate degrees now?
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Pre-Law students at KSU are garbage.
That's what I'm talking about
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I'm kind of resigned to the fact that I'll be bored with any job other than KSU MBB's shooting coach, so I figure I might as well be bored and get paid.
Bingo. That's why I programmed a money counter that keeps a running total of how much I've made at any given time during a day.
Dorky? Yes. Helpful? Very.
"God, I'm so f'ing bored........however I've made $XXX.XX so far today."
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Rusty - before I answer what area is your undergrad degree in and do you have any graduate degrees now?
BS in Mechanical engineering, no grad school.
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Oh, yeah, I used to work 4 tens, too. I miss it.
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1) How poor do you get?
That depends on how you approach the situation. I came out money ahead but I'd already paid my mortgage off, made $30k during my 2L clerkship, moved some friends in leech a little rent and defray the monthly expenses, and started a business with one of my law profs who took it upon himself to pay my tuition.
Since you have a technical background you have another option: the US patent office is hiring *tons* of new examiners right now. You don't need any training or experience, just a technical degree. They're begging for forlks with degrees in EE, CSE, CS, & life sciences, less so for MEs but it's still a viable option. You'd spend the next 4 years tormenting lawyers making 4x+ what you'd be making then graduate with your JD and enough experience in a relevant field to open doors that would otherwise be initially closed (e.g., corporate counsel slots where they typically want 4-5 years of experience). Besides, DC, despite being a cesspool, is a rockin' town and just happens to have a higher concentration of law firms starting assoicates at $100k+ than anywhere else in the nation. If you want to be a lawyer, that's Mecca for you.
2) How long does it take?
Three years full time with summers off or four years of night school if you're working full-time. If you're interested in the part-time option be sure the colleges you apply to offer it, some don't. Most programs will have an option that allows you to load up in the summers and get out a semester early. A better option for you given your interests might be one of the few joint JD / MBA programs, those usually require 4 years.
3) Do you like being a lawyer?
It beats engineering but I was looking for independence more than anything else. I'm perfectly willing to succeed or fail on my own merits but I'm unwilling to slave away in a large organization will find the first excuse to show me the door when I become overly expensive (read "hit about 50"). As one of my previous managers used to say, "Engineering is a young man's game, law is an old man's game." There's a lot of truth in that.
4) Random things you should know.
Law schools are regional - State bar concerns aside, law is a *very* regional profession. If you don't attend a top-10 type of program or graduate cum laude (or better) with a law review credential, plan on an uphill battle in any early attempts to leave the area in which you attend law school. Having a tech background mitigates this a bit as does having some work experience.
Attend the best law school that will have you - At least apply to the top 10-15. I don't care how far in debt you have to go or how much you despise the parts of the country in which those programs are located, those are the only ones that will almost certainly pay for themselves in short order. Additionally, Rusty - middle of the road Harvard JD is going to make partner at a large national firm every time while Rusty - top 20% ku law grad and law review editor is going to lose out to the average grad of the better program every time. Performance is king but in this profession pedigree is equally important, moreso if you intend to secure the higher-paying positions.
Understand the economics - Financially this is a pretty straightforward profession. The key factor in the longevity of your position is how much income you generate for the firm. The average large firm (where the money is) operates at about 50% overhead, that is to say that overhead consumes 50% of collections. Perhaps less in second cities, more if they have the top few floors of the Sears Tower or the like. You also must, of course, pay your own salary and benefits (rule of thumb for benes is 1/3 of salary) and, most importantly, kick in cash for the partners to take home. E.g., the firm I was with in LA started attorneys at $130k. Rule of thumb says add $42k for benefits. Add another $172k for overhead and the break-even money to have me there was about $350k. Of course if they're paying me $130k I'd damn well better be putting at least half that much in the partner's kitty, with overhead that's another $130k I need to generate to make keeping me around an attractive proposition. Thus if my goal was to stick around beyond the first year I needed to generate a bare minimum of $480k in revenue. Our first year associates were billed out at $185/hour so that's roughly 2600 hours billed and collected. That firm had a partnership structure that didn't penalize partners for carrying deadbeat clients so collections were only about 90% of billings which bumps the hours worked requirement up to just under 2900. Of course no one is 100% efficient in their work (there's always non-billable time as well), how much slop there is depends on a lot of factors but figure no better than 20% for a new grad and usually not much worse than 10% for someone who's been around a couple of years. Figuring 20% slop, your first year would now be required to work about 3600 hours in order for the firm's billings and collections to show that he's worthy of sticking around another year. Assuming you take your two weeks vacation like everyone else that's about 72 hours/week. Keep in mind that's the *minimum* that will be expected in that environment, if you want to make partner you'll need to be in the top 20% or so of all associates in collections (5% at some firms) and have devloped a knack for generating business. I normally worked 70-80 at my pre-law school corporate job and did 60/week on top of being a full time student all the way through law school so for me being at a big firm was like a vacation. My peers however didn't share my enthusiasm for the relatively short work weeks, YMMV.
Don't believe the hype - The only places paying $180k to new associates are probably small litigation boutiques with stunning client rosters. Those positions exist with about the same frequency as powerball jackpot winners which is to say that they're out there but don't expect to find one and don't use that as any kind of actual upper bound. To get a slot like that you'd better be a 6' blonde olympic swimmer who's drop-dead gorgeous, has massive hooters, gives great head (and like older men, lots of older men), and who also happens to have graduated #1 in her class at Harvard Law. If you don't believe those first few criteria make a difference I can give you the number of the chick in my law school class who appeared in Playboy, slept with most of the local NBA & NFL teams, graduated in the bottom 20% of our class, and got a $120k/year job right after we finished ... in the worst legal job market wince WW II. Or the former model who got in a couple of years behind me because she included her swimsuit shots with her application , transcripts showing way below average grades, and low LSAT score; the prof heading up the admissions committee (himself having been suspended for a few years for sexually harassing a female student) took one look at the photos, tossed the rest of the application in the trash, and put her on the admit list. Even the $100k+ jobs for new grads are relatively rare (figure 10% of all new grads, far less from lower tier schools). Salaries are somewhat proportional to the regional cost of living, the $130k jobs are in places like LA, NoCal, NYC, DC, etc. where the cost of living will take the money right back out of your bank account. Of course you can always go from biglaw in NYC to KC or Omaha but doing the reverse is very difficult. Probably the best deal financially would be to set up shop in a small town in the midwest where homes are dirt cheap. A few years down the road you could easily be pulling in 6 figures in a bottom 20% cost of living area. I know a guy who stepped out of an exceptional practice and moved waaay back into the mountains out west. He lives in a cabin at the end of many miles of forest service roads but pulls down a half-mil a year running his practice out of his home. He's also obviously an outlier but doing that on a smaller scale is very doable.
I could go on but you get the idea. Barring a ticket to Harverd, Yale, Stanford or the like, if I were you I’d seriously consider trying to get in at the patent office and doing the night school program at George Washington. You’ll come close to breaking even and be far far ahead of your peers when you finish.
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One thing I forgot: Slimz is correct that new associates in large firms tend to do a lot of crappy work. That's because the stakes are usually abnormally high and because someone has to do it but there are exceptions. E.g., the second day of my 2L clerkship (the second day I had ever set foot in a law firm of any type) a partner called and asked "if would have time to sit in on a client interview to see how things were done", spent 5 minutes introducing me to the client, told me to "take care of whatever they need", and left the room never to return. The client had a real issue related to procuring the rights in technology they thought would be worth at least several tens of millions of dollars and had a hard deadline ten days out after which they would be prohibited from securing said rights. I finished up just ahead of the deadline after which time the client insisted on a conference call with myself and the partners he'd worked with during which he insisted that: a) the firm hire me immediately; b) he would work with no one at the firm other than myself; and upon learning that I had a year to go in law school and was not attending a local university c) that the firm get me into USC or UCLA to finish up so I would be local and could work with him in my free time. Needless to say I could do little wrong after that. Point being that if you're a 25 year old JD with a BA in English Lit who has never worked at anything requiring more responsibility than flipping burgers it's likely you'll be doing S**T work for some time. On the other hand if you're a little older, have an undergrad degree in something useful, and have significant real-life work experience it's likely that many firms will treat you more like a professional than a snot-nosed kid.
You should also consider strongly what you want to do with a JD. If you want to be a criminal defense attorney or do real estate work your technical background is of little use. If, on the other hand, you want to do IP you're significantlymore valuable. I can't urge you strongly enough to attend either a top 10 program or, barring that, a top 10 IP program. The former will allow you to write your own ticket, the latter will not but will make you significantly more valuable in the IP arena than your peers who slum at UMKC, ku, Washburn, et al. The GW/USPTO option will easily make you more marketable than anything other than a JD from a top-10 school, think *very* hard about doing it if you decide to pursue this.
Since you have a technical background another excellent option for you would be to take the patent bar right now and obtain your registration as a patent agent. There are firms, particularly IP boutiques on the coasts, who will hire patent agents at the same salary as new associates and pay their law school tuition for a part-time program. Look for a firm that will count your years worked towards partnership if you go that route.
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Jeez, for some reason I thought AzCat was an architecture student who spent most of his time farking Mangino in some Seaton Hall studio. That was some interesting reading. I enjoyed it.
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Awesome, AZ. Thanks a ton. You already answered some of my questions with your second post...
1) Were you a full time student while you were working full time?
2) Did you go to a top 15 school?
3) How difficult was law school, compared to your undergrad in engineering? (In terms of both volume of work and ability to grasp concepts.)
4) How long did you work before going to law school?
5) What type of engineering were you in?
6) Do you apply your technical experience to your legal practice?
7) Did a technical background give you much of an advantage, if any?
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Also, you're right about engineering being a young man's game. After seeing things that are out there, I get the feeling most engineers "peak" about 5-8 years after graduation - just an early impression.
Assuming the USPTO route isn't an immediate option, what would you consider an optimal time to make the jump to Law School?
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AzCat also rides a motorcycle and is a photographer.
He's a free spirit and has no attachments in life. Having met him for about 10 minutes at the Fox Sports Grill in Scottsdale, you wouldn't expect him to be any different from any other Joe.
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I finished up just ahead of the deadline after which time the client insisted on a conference call with myself and the partners he'd worked with during which he insisted that: a) the firm hire me immediately; b) he would work with no one at the firm other than myself; and upon learning that I had a year to go in law school and was not attending a local university c) that the firm get me into USC or UCLA to finish up so I would be local and could work with him in my free time.
That's frigging awesome.
One other thing. I can't emphasize enough the importance of networking and "being in the right place at the right time" in the legal profession. It's important in many careers, of course, but in my experience it can be absolutely critical in this line of work. A lot of this has to do with meeting and working with as many different people as you can, volunteering and putting yourself in a position to take advantage of opportunities that may crop up and lead to bigger things down the road. If you meet, interact, and work with a variety of people in different positions in the legal world and impress them, a lot of things can open up down the road. Here are a few examples just from my experience over the past few years:
* I learned about and interviewed for the clerkship I worked at after my first year through a poster on this board, who I only knew through KSU message boards. Trim Reaper saw me mention law school, and provided me with outlines as well as the heads up on the clerkship opportunity, and he put in a good word for me with the firm.
* I got the interview for my current job, at least in part, because of the recommendation of a lifelong friend of mine to the folks who interviewed and then hired me.
* A friend who graduated with me is working for the patent office in Washington that Az is talking about. He got the interview because he joined an IP e-mail group during law school and got to know someone connected to the patent office who gave him the heads-up when the job opened up.
* Another friend who graduated with me is working for a non-profit in DC as appellate counsel. He was recommended for the job by one of our professors who had connections with the non-profit and who knew that my friend wanted to work in DC in that type of work.
* Another friend landed a White House internship while he was in undergrad. Granted, that helps right there, but while in DC he met and spoke with Harriet Myers about law school, and she later offered to write him a letter of recommendation.
AzCat is right that a lot of the legal profession is very regional and that outside of the Top 15, you should try to attend school in the area where you want to work. However, although most of the folks who graduated with me from ku stayed in the area, I have friends who went to DC, or Texas, or California, or Philly, or Arizona. The difference is that you have to seek out the opportunities, whereas at the Top 15, they usually seek you out.
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That's just it MJ, I *am* no different than anyone else here. Well I'm probably the biggest asshole here and might have a few more worthless hunks of paper hanging on the office wall but that's about it. I tend to win big and lose big, that keeps things interesting which is how I like it.
1) Were you a full time student while you were working full time?
Yes but my law school and the ABA prohibit doing so. I resigned my corporate position before beginning law school then hooked up with one of my law professors and started a business my 1L year. I asked him about the ethical considerations of ignoring the ABA's 20 hour per wek max on jobx for full time law students to which he replied, "&@#% them." The rest, as they say, is history.
2) Did you go to a top 15 school?
No. I applied to only one school, the local tier 1 (top 50) state school. At that point I owned my home free and clear, had no debt, and was unsure if law was for me so keeping the red ink to a minimum was a top priority. I'd asked a good friend who was finishing up at about that time whether I really needed to try for a top-10 type of program and his reply was, "No, any ABA accredited program will get you where you want to go." In retrospect that's not accurate at all if your goals are even modestly above the baseline but I was fortunate to have fallen in with some very successful folks who showed me whole other worlds of opportunity outside the traditional arenas.
3) How difficult was law school, compared to your undergrad in engineering? (In terms of both volume of work and ability to grasp concepts.)
Cakewalk. The hardest thing about law school is getting in. Honestly it's a trade school just like the union pluming academy or the local diesel mechanic program but it has delusions of grandeur. Lots of folks go in expecting some revelatory experience that will magically transform them into pholosopher kings who sit on high and hand down their pearls of wisdom to the masses. Those that go on to be profs achieve that to a degree, most of the rest are disappointed. In the end law is to language what engineering is to mathematics, it's the structured application of the underlying discipline to achieve a desired result, nothing more and nothing less. In a way you have an advantage as an engineer because you're already skilled in critical thinking and logic in a way that your peers in law school who will have degrees in English, History, Political Science, Psychology, Theology, Dance (no kidding, we had a dance major), etc. are not.
My first semester I made the mistake of taking the dean of our school's advice and doing all of the work instead of buying commercial outlines for each subject. The only real frustration with law school is that you're often left to infer what the rules are and how things work. It's not difficult but it's time consuming and if you have other fish to fry it's time wasted. The commercial outlines lay out the black letter law that you need to know but will be left to infer from classroom discussions. If you have $50 to spend on books for one course, buy the commercial outline and skip the casebook. Your GPA will thank you.
4) How long did you work before going to law school?
Three years. Some in cleared government work, some in commercial aerospace.
5) What type of engineering were you in?
I received my BSEE & MSEE from KSU but worked mostly as a software engineer. Custom operating systems for control of certain special assets, phased array antenna analysis & simulation, orbital mechanics, comm sys traffic prediction & analysis, as much interactive 3-D visualization as I could get away with, etc.
6) Do you apply your technical experience to your legal practice?
Yes and no. The only areas of a traditional legal practice where you'd apply a technical background are patent prosecution (open to all comers), patent litigation (firms strongly prefer better grades/schools, moot court winners, and other pedigree options but do consider a technical background a plus). Some technical background is useful in copyright law but firms aren't getting that message very quickly. Otherwise it's not particularly useful other than as a credential that says to a prospective client or employer "this guy is probably not a dummy".
7) Did a technical background give you much of an advantage, if any?
Yes and no. The business I started in law school is a software shop and my technical background landed me a piece of that action which in turn provided 2-3 hours/day face time with one of the nation's best IP practitioners. Friday's we'd head out to the local country club for long lunches and spend hours grooming business plans, discussing prospective partners, and, perhaps most interestingly, designing products around the proper balance of practical considerations, user considerations, and legal and technological protections. Every business with any sort of technology component *NEEDS* someone who is at least competent in the intersection of law, business, and technology. Of course none of them realize it because the pool of available folks who fit the bill is vanishingly small. Hence you have to create those positions, something you can't do without the proper background.
In actual practice it's not a huge advantage unless you're prosecuting or litigating patents. There lacking the technical credential is an absolute bar to entering the profession. But realize that all other things being equal firms will often hire the engineer over the pre-law undergrad because they view it as a credential with more substance.
I suppose the answer is, "It depends on what you intend to do with your JD." But there are definitely doors open to technologists that are not open to others. One good example is corporate patent counsels. Those folks suck down six figure salaries for watching the outside counsel perform their patent prosecution; structured correctly you can get paid six figures to travel around and learn from the best. Cushy if you can get it which you can't without a technical background.
As far as when to go - go now. If you can get your JD by the time you're 30-32 I think that would be ideal.
Why would you rule out the USPTO option? You'd have no or little debt and would graduate with more domain knowledge of the patent laws, rules, and regulations (arguably the most intricate and difficult area of legal practice) than most young partners in IP firms. That would pretty much guarantee you a six-figure job if you wanted it. I really can't stress enough what a stunningly good option that is.
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AzCat is right ....
That's the mark of a highly intelligent poster right there. 8)
I can't emphasize enough the importance of networking and "being in the right place at the right time" in the legal profession.
Exactly correct but I'd add that you need to spend your limited networking time wisely. Use it to pursue not just new and different people but new and different people who are involved in the sorts of things you'd like to be involved in. For example, when I lived in NoCal if would have been an utter waste of time to volunteer my services at the local battered women's shelter as did many local attorneys whereas writing a whitepaper for the EFF (or the like) would have put me in touch with the right sorts of folks. It's all about increasing your odds and not forclosing opportunities but that's probably self evident.
The difference is that you have to seek out the opportunities, whereas at the Top 15, they usually seek you out.
Very true. There's a sort of intertia that tends to bind people to the area they grew up in or at least where they currently live. Consider these two folks: a Columbia JD working biglaw in NYC who'd like to return to KC and a ku JD working biglaw in KC who'd like to move to NYC, both of whom are midwestern kids with friends and family in the KC area. I'll suggest that the the degree of difficulty for the Columbia grad is an order of magnitude lower and the probability of success an order of magnitude higher than for his ku counterpart. Part of that is the quality of the pedigree, part the perceived quality of the regional firms, but a lot is due to the fact that firms are very reluctant to hire anyone without ties that will keep them in the firm's region for the long run.
My point in suggesting getting the heck out of the midwest and aiming higher than UMKC or ku was merely that it's pretty easy to come home, it's much more difficult to leave and step into the right opportunity while doing so. Back to the idea of not forclosing opportunities which, like it or not, is exactly what someone selecting a tier 3 or 4 school is doing. Seems silly to hamstring yourself before you even get started but as with all else YMMV.
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Good stuff. AZ, any advice for me? kthx.
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Didn't I already tell you/katkid whose ass you needed to kiss in Manhattan. Don't blame me if you got shot down. :tongue:
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I think you've already lectured KK. Not me.
EE is gay btw.
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Why would you rule out the USPTO option? You'd have no or little debt and would graduate with more domain knowledge of the patent laws, rules, and regulations (arguably the most intricate and difficult area of legal practice) than most young partners in IP firms. That would pretty much guarantee you a six-figure job if you wanted it. I really can't stress enough what a stunningly good option that is.
Family issues make it nearly impossible to move for at least a couple years. "Don't forclose opportunities" is pretty good advice...I think it would be better to wait a while for the USPTO rather than starting ASAP at UMKC or ku.
What does the USPTO pay?
How difficult is it to get a job there?
Do you have to be an EIT? (I didn't take the FE, and I haven't worked under a PE, anyway.)
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What does the USPTO pay?
I haven't checked lately but they're GS jobs so it won't be exceptional. Probably close to what you're making now but you might check on the education benefits as they may well still pick up the entire tab for you to go to law school.
How difficult is it to get a job there?
It's never been easier. They're in the process of hiring IIRC 1500 new examiners which is a *ton*.
Do you have to be an EIT?
Nope and it probably wouldn't make any difference if you were. They would probably bump you a grade if you were a PE and/or had an advanced degree. IIRC they also bump one grade if you're a member of one or more recognized (by them) undergraduate honor societies.
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* I learned about and interviewed for the clerkship I worked at after my first year through a poster on this board, who I only knew through KSU message boards. Trim Reaper saw me mention law school, and provided me with outlines as well as the heads up on the clerkship opportunity, and he put in a good word for me with the firm.
Somebody from this board needs to go to law school at ku soon to keep this tradition alive. My outlines will be obsolete soon. I'm sure bslimz has the updated versions. The clerkship recommendation is still golden though.
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Rusty, sorry to hear things aren't working out for you...
Your situation is familiar...if your not happy, do something about it.
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Bi-lingual education kids. Thats the ticket!
Getting a nice big mushy plate of bi-lingual/multicultural education and grabbing hold of some university and into academia I go!