KSUFans Archives
Sports => Snyder's Electronic Cyber Space World => Topic started by: chum1 on November 05, 2007, 10:36:02 AM
-
If not, why not start thinking about replacing him? If he doesn't become better than mediocre, did we make a mistake by taking a chance on someone with so little experience?
-
Chum, let me ask you this - since our losses hinged on lack of defense, it would only make sense that if we had an offense, we would be undefeated? Look at Gay U's offense - nothing special, (that's honesty folks) Gay U has proven, with a better than average defense, especially in this league, you can do very well.
I still think that 4 yrs is the minimum here.
-
There a certainly indications that Prince will be better than mediocre, there's also reasons for concern. As I think about it, we're all pissed by some developments this year, when we should be a little more patient and see if some of these issues can't be worked out in year 3 and 4.
-
It's like we're in Purgatory. :ohno:
-
We really don't know for sure either way what we have in Prince. The end of this season will tell us a lot. Go 2-1 from here on out and win our bowl game and most will feel pretty decent about this season. Go 1-2 and miss out and many will be calling for Prince's head. Go 3-0 and win a bowl game and most will be calling for a long term extension and ISU will be forgotten. There is too much football left this year to lock down any opinions on where Prince has us going IMO. Even then, he will be given at least 2 more years after this one barring some 1-3 win meltdown year next year.
-
KSU would have 1, maybe 2 losses this year if the D was a little more stingy at the end of 3 games. I'll give a semi free pass because of the complete overhaul of a system, and a few key injuries/suspensions. If its not improved next year, area for concern definately.
The improvement of the offense is a major step forward.
Gotta wait till year 4/5 to see how it pans out. :popcorn:
-
I think it's interesting that the most optimistic thing we can say about Prince is that we have to give him time. That didn't work out so well for Nebraska.
-
You can't build a program in a year and a half. Knock off these PMSing threads calling for Prince's head or even bringing up the thought after every damn loss. Nothing but a bunch of FPs on this board like all the other boards. JMO, but people need to get over it already.
-
Another one having trouble finding something positive to say about Prince. We're pretty quick to defend without seeming to have much of a grasp of what we're defending.
-
I think it's interesting that the most optimistic thing we can say about Prince is that we have to give him time. That didn't work out so well for Nebraska.
I don't think that is the most optimistic thing. The Texas wins are a solid pair of wins. OSU last year and CU this year were solid wins. We have been in and had chances in the 4th to win every game we've played this year, that wasn't the case last year. Granted, I know the "losing close" thing is a slippery slope, but in year 2 I still think it is legitimate. Offensively we have shown major improvement this year and we are still showing big play ability in special teams. The biggest negatives IMO are the BU and ISU losses, the ku losses, and the inability to finish in the close games this year when we had plenty of opportunities. Defensively we are a work in progress and the regression during a 2nd season in a row is a concern.
I think the positives outweigh the negatives right now, though it isn't as clear cut after the loss to ISU.
-
I did not like the hire when it was made and do not see us doing much under Prince. That said, we gave the man a five year contract and unless he cheats (see ku) or gets arrested, he should be allowed to fulfill his contract. I still love America even though our President is a dork.
-
I think it's interesting that the most optimistic thing we can say about Prince is that we have to give him time. That didn't work out so well for Nebraska.
Nebraska did win the north last year, so at this time last year it was looking fine. I don't know what the hell has gone wrong for them this year, but I must say that I didn't see it coming.
-
Off the top of my head:
* Last year we had close wins and blowout losses; this year we've had blowout wins and close losses. That's improvement which is about all you can ask for.
* The O/U on wins for the average first year D-IA FB HC is like 3. When improvements happen you typically see a spike in the W/L record in the first couple of years of a new HC's tenure as compared to the last couple of years under the previous HC.
* Prince landed a franchise QB in his first year.
* The defense is still better than last year and last year it was better than the prior year.
* The offense is night-and-day better than recent years and that's without a legit OL.
* The players play with a lot of enthusiasm. Whenever there's a ball on the ground there're a couple of Wildcats diving towards it. Bob Huggins wanted his hoops team to play like that but they declined, newbie HC RP has his team doing it already.
* This year's team has enough talent to win maybe 3 games this season. They've already won 5 with at least 3 to go.
There're many signs that Prince is good enough to be a very very solid HC long term. The only real area of concern is recruiting where he really needs to step up.
-
Another one having trouble finding something positive to say about Prince. We're pretty quick to defend without seeming to have much of a grasp of what we're defending.
The point is bringing up talk about firing Prince in less than two years because he lost this game or that game is a waste of time. FWIW, I think this team is better than a year ago when we don't make mistakes. The offense is way more explosive with an improved Oline, special teams are about the same as last year which was pretty damn good and the defense is going through a tough time but they do force more turnovers while our depth has taken a hit during the season. We are playing a tougher schedule mainly because the Big 12 is much better than a year ago. The North is weak crap doesn't fly anymore. This division is very good aside from Nebraska and Iowa State is certainly better right now than last year.
Prince needs time and deserves time to keep building. Firing Prince would set this program further back and it's an irrational thought a year and a half in. As irrational as Huggins bolting a year into his tenure.
-
I'm cool with sustained mediocrity in football.
Just so there's no sh*tty 3-9 type seasons.
-
I'm cool with sustained mediocrity in football.
Just so there's no sh*tty 3-9 type seasons.
Interesting.
-
I'm cool with sustained mediocrity in football.
Just so there's no sh*tty 3-9 type seasons.
Interesting.
Sustained mediocrity usually leads to pretty good seasons:
See: Pinkel, Mangino, Al Groh, Jim Grobe, Tom O'Brien, etc.
-
Someone said it in the TV thread for the MU game, but Prince has also brought the program a significant amount of exposure. He's gotten us on national TV a bunch already through his scheduling practices and having enough success. Hopefully this will pan out and benefit our program in other ways (recruiting), but we'll have to see.
-
I'm cool with sustained mediocrity in football.
Just so there's no sh*tty 3-9 type seasons.
Does that make Weiser CFB's version of Carl Peterson?
-
Even if you think Ron's mediocre, you still have to give at least 4, probably 5 years. Firing coaches after 2 or 3 years (unless they are ungodly horrible) isn't really a good practice.
I hope KSU fans are bracing for next year. It doesn't look all that promising. I think the schedule is more difficult than this year (although that still won't keep me from melting down).
-
If not, why not start thinking about replacing him? If he doesn't become better than mediocre, did we make a mistake by taking a chance on someone with so little experience?
It would be the dumbest thing in the world to hire a guy with little experience then train him on the job for two years and fire him. We knew he was young and inexperienced when he took the job any reasonable person should have realized he'd have growing pains and it would take time. Given what he was walking into I think even a proven experienced coach would have struggled to do any better then what he has. To even talk about replacing him now is beyond stupid.
-
If not, why not start thinking about replacing him? If he doesn't become better than mediocre, did we make a mistake by taking a chance on someone with so little experience?
Only if he wins out will I be totally on board with Prince not being a mediocre coach.
8-5 is mediocre, but acceptable. 9-4 is a huge jump from 8-5.
-
I still say Prince be given his 5 years unless bad stuff (illegal) happens....
After all we are not an outlaw program like ku or old UNLV, that tolerates cheaters and is so starved to win that we will break all rules....
Can one imagine the negative publicity KSU would get for firing a black coach with a decent record after only two years on the job?
Firing Prince would set us on a course to be the baylor of the North....
-
There was no indication we were going to be anything but mediocre until 1997.....so it seems pretty comical this question would even be asked.
-
Even if you think Ron's mediocre, you still have to give at least 4, probably 5 years. Firing coaches after 2 or 3 years (unless they are ungodly horrible) isn't really a good practice.
I hope KSU fans are bracing for next year. It doesn't look all that promising. I think the schedule is more difficult than this year (although that still won't keep me from melting down).
Any year that doesn't have Watts flailing around like a hippie at a Panic show will be better than this year.
-
There was no indication we were going to be anything but mediocre until 1997.....so it seems pretty comical this question would even be asked.
So 4 straight 9 win seasons (with only 11 game schedules) is mediocre? You've got to be kidding me. I'd kill for 4 straight 9 win seasons.
-
There was no indication we were going to be anything but mediocre until 1997.....so it seems pretty comical this question would even be asked.
So 4 straight 9 win seasons (with only 11 game schedules) is mediocre? You've got to be kidding me. I'd kill for 4 straight 9 win seasons.
Did we ever beat anybody worth a crap in those 4 years? We won the games we were supposed to win. We beat some teams that were even with us. We never beat a team better than us. It was the Snyder plan executed to perfection. We didn't truly become great until '97. The point is there's no indication that we're worse off than when Snyder took over and we didn't truly become great until '97.....
-
There was no indication we were going to be anything but mediocre until 1997.....so it seems pretty comical this question would even be asked.
So 4 straight 9 win seasons (with only 11 game schedules) is mediocre? You've got to be kidding me. I'd kill for 4 straight 9 win seasons.
Did we ever beat anybody worth a crap in those 4 years? We won the games we were supposed to win. We beat some teams that were even with us. We never beat a team better than us. It was the Snyder plan executed to perfection. We didn't truly become great until '97. The point is there's no indication that we're worse off than when Snyder took over and we didn't truly become great until '97.....
qft.
Here are the wins over conference teams with winning records:
93: 9-3 OU
94: 6-5 ku
95: 10-2 ku
96: 7-5 TT
That's it.
-
There was no indication we were going to be anything but mediocre until 1997.....so it seems pretty comical this question would even be asked.
So 4 straight 9 win seasons (with only 11 game schedules) is mediocre? You've got to be kidding me. I'd kill for 4 straight 9 win seasons.
Did we ever beat anybody worth a crap in those 4 years? We won the games we were supposed to win. We beat some teams that were even with us. We never beat a team better than us. It was the Snyder plan executed to perfection. We didn't truly become great until '97. The point is there's no indication that we're worse off than when Snyder took over and we didn't truly become great until '97.....
I'll agree with the fact they didnt become "great" till '97. Snyder's losses predominantly came from 1)NU (who was a machine in the '90's) and CU, who was also pretty good.
I'd still take beating the crap out of crap teams and winning 9 games and losing to top 5 teams in the country than getting one upset a yr and losing to ISU ('93 withstanding)
-
Even if you think Ron's mediocre, you still have to give at least 4, probably 5 years. Firing coaches after 2 or 3 years (unless they are ungodly horrible) isn't really a good practice.
I hope KSU fans are bracing for next year. It doesn't look all that promising. I think the schedule is more difficult than this year (although that still won't keep me from melting down).
It's amazing how much this board is melting down now that catzacker is one of the more positive / let's see Prince through posters.
People got far too giddy after the Texas win -- this team is the same as it was at the start of the season, a 6-7 win team with a tough schedule.
-
There was no indication we were going to be anything but mediocre until 1997.....so it seems pretty comical this question would even be asked.
So 4 straight 9 win seasons (with only 11 game schedules) is mediocre? You've got to be kidding me. I'd kill for 4 straight 9 win seasons.
Did we ever beat anybody worth a crap in those 4 years? We won the games we were supposed to win. We beat some teams that were even with us. We never beat a team better than us. It was the Snyder plan executed to perfection. We didn't truly become great until '97. The point is there's no indication that we're worse off than when Snyder took over and we didn't truly become great until '97.....
Who gives a damn if we didnt' beat a team that was better than us if we won all/most of the games that we should have. If you win 9 or 10 games and they are the ones where the team is as good or worse than you, then guess what...that means your a good team. Who gives a damn about "great" right now? I'll trade the UT win for 2 wins against ISU and OSU.
-
There was no indication we were going to be anything but mediocre until 1997.....so it seems pretty comical this question would even be asked.
So 4 straight 9 win seasons (with only 11 game schedules) is mediocre? You've got to be kidding me. I'd kill for 4 straight 9 win seasons.
Did we ever beat anybody worth a crap in those 4 years? We won the games we were supposed to win. We beat some teams that were even with us. We never beat a team better than us. It was the Snyder plan executed to perfection. We didn't truly become great until '97. The point is there's no indication that we're worse off than when Snyder took over and we didn't truly become great until '97.....
qft.
Here are the wins over conference teams with winning records:
93: 9-3 OU
94: 6-5 ku
95: 10-2 ku
96: 7-5 TT
That's it.
Honestly, do you realize that most teams are like that. Seriously...look at ku. They are 9-0, but how many wins over teams with a winning conference record?
0.
Texas?
0.
Good teams beat the bad teams, and go even with the equal teams. It's hilarious that people just assume if you are a top 10 team, you should have a .500 record vs other top 10 teams.
-
There was no indication we were going to be anything but mediocre until 1997.....so it seems pretty comical this question would even be asked.
So 4 straight 9 win seasons (with only 11 game schedules) is mediocre? You've got to be kidding me. I'd kill for 4 straight 9 win seasons.
Did we ever beat anybody worth a crap in those 4 years? We won the games we were supposed to win. We beat some teams that were even with us. We never beat a team better than us. It was the Snyder plan executed to perfection. We didn't truly become great until '97. The point is there's no indication that we're worse off than when Snyder took over and we didn't truly become great until '97.....
qft.
Here are the wins over conference teams with winning records:
93: 9-3 OU
94: 6-5 ku
95: 10-2 ku
96: 7-5 TT
That's it.
Honestly, do you realize that most teams are like that. Seriously...look at ku. They are 9-0, but how many wins over teams with a winning conference record?
0.
Texas?
0.
Good teams beat the bad teams, and go even with the equal teams. It's hilarious that people just assume if you are a top 10 team, you should have a .500 record vs other top 10 teams.
OSU has a winning conference record.
I see your point, but the win over UT is better than any win in that time period. The CU win could be better than all but OU and ku.
The loss to ISU will be KSU's only loss to a team with a losing record.
-
&@#%ing Snyder lost to fracking Marshall at home.
-
Out of curiosity, what do you people expect? A divisional title every year? BCS games every year?
Listen folks, the DoD is over. For everyone.
I expect a bowl game every year and to win the division once every 4 or 5 years. Anything more is gravy. Anything less is really unnacceptable.
As long as K-state remains "pretty good" and gives me something to look forward to in the fall every year, I'm okay with it.
-
Out of curiosity, what do you people expect? A divisional title every year? BCS games every year?
Listen folks, the DoD is over. For everyone.
I expect a bowl game every year and to win the division once every 4 or 5 years. Anything more is gravy. Anything less is really unnacceptable.
As long as K-state remains "pretty good" and gives me something to look forward to in the fall every year, I'm okay with it.
:love:
(dlew is not my sock, BTW.)
-
There was no indication we were going to be anything but mediocre until 1997.....so it seems pretty comical this question would even be asked.
A New Year's Day bowl is mediocre? Talk about comical.
-
The original question was is there an indication Prince will be better than mediocre....I'm simply trying to point out, for those that don't have the benefit of a lot of perspective, that there weren't a helluva lot of indications to the contrary in the first 6-7 years of Snyder.
We were a better than average football team playing cup cakes and in a weak-ass conference. Yeah we made the Cotton Bowl one year and got it handed to us by frickin' BYU.
It's crazy to suggest that there haven't been as many good signs of success in the 14 game Prince career as in the first 60 or so of Snyder.
-
The original question was is there an indication Prince will be better than mediocre....I'm simply trying to point out, for those that don't have the benefit of a lot of perspective, that there weren't a helluva lot of indications to the contrary in the first 6-7 years of Snyder.
We were a better than average football team playing cup cakes and in a weak-ass conference. Yeah we made the Cotton Bowl one year and got it handed to us by frickin' BYU.
It's crazy to suggest that there haven't been as many good signs of success in the 14 game Prince career as in the first 60 or so of Snyder.
Compare the overall program Snyder inherited (I'm talking recruits, facilities, fanbase, all of it) to what Prince inherited, and get back to me so I can laugh at you some more.
-
Prince has shown that we are pretty awesome when we don't turn the ball over.
-
any indication the fat man would make it to mediocre? give it some time
-
I'm cool with sustained mediocrity in football.
Just so there's no sh*tty 3-9 type seasons.
If we go bowling every year (7-5, 8-4 type regular seasons), with a 9 or 10 win B12 title game every couple of years, I'll be fine also. Especially if we keep having exciting games at home (OSU, LOU, Tx last year, COL this year, etc).
The B12 has too much parity to expect 10 and 11 win seasons on a regular basis like back in the day.
-
The original question was is there an indication Prince will be better than mediocre....I'm simply trying to point out, for those that don't have the benefit of a lot of perspective, that there weren't a helluva lot of indications to the contrary in the first 6-7 years of Snyder.
We were a better than average football team playing cup cakes and in a weak-ass conference. Yeah we made the Cotton Bowl one year and got it handed to us by frickin' BYU.
It's crazy to suggest that there haven't been as many good signs of success in the 14 game Prince career as in the first 60 or so of Snyder.
Compare the overall program Snyder inherited (I'm talking recruits, facilities, fanbase, all of it) to what Prince inherited, and get back to me so I can laugh at you some more.
Koug,
Many ways to compare it. If you compare it to what KSU had...there isn't any. If you compare it to the rest of the college football world....I'd have to say that others have progressed farther than we have in some of those areas.
Each had advantages that others haven't....it's not a reach to suggest that Snyder's early years didn't show any different signs than Prince's early years.
Your tone suggests I'm trying to downplay Snyder's accomplishments, I'm not....I just think it's too early to bury Prince.
-
This is the stupidest thread i have seen in ages. I mean even the posts that are trying to be sensible are ridiculous.
This is a team that is in solid contention for a second straight bowl appearance. Coming off two consecutive non-bowl cellar dwelling seasons. A year ago I listened to every talking head proclaim us as last place finishers.
We are currently starting a true soph qb who is showing definite signs of growth. A defense who, while suffering injury issues, is implementing a new scheme under a first year d-coordinator. For fans to have any expectations beyond attaining bowl status are somewhat unrealistic.
In fact I am in favor of renegotiating Prince's deal to place a buyout on his final three years. People not emotionally attached with what is happening here are impressed with his ability and direction. Plus to be fair to any coach and system your really need to give him at least 4-5 years. Look at Mangino
-
Did we have a preseason prediction thread here? someone needs to bump that.
-
If this is as bad as it gets then I'm ok, obviously we could have done better this season.
-
If Prince doesn't start focusing on some interior lineman for boths sides of the ball, K-State is going to be mediocre for the rest of his career.
-
he hasn't even finished his second season and we act as if Callahan is leading us into the grave.
I say give Prince a chance to build a defense and offensive line around Freeman and then evaluate where we are in the Big 12 pecking order after Freeman's senior year 2010.*
*unless JF goes pro
-
If not, why not start thinking about replacing him? If he doesn't become better than mediocre, did we make a mistake by taking a chance on someone with so little experience?
It would be the dumbest thing in the world to hire a guy with little experience then train him on the job for two years...
^^^This is how I see it. Still wish the AD had stepped up.
By the way, four straight 9 win+ seasons, four top 20 finishes, one #6 final ranking, and one New Years Day Bowl is way above mediocre. Particularly given the starting point: KSU won 2.13 games per year in the 8 season before Snyder arrived. There is quite simply no way to argue Snyder's teams were mediocre until 1997.
-
Each had advantages that others haven't....it's not a reach to suggest that Snyder's early years didn't show any different signs than Prince's early years.
I actually think we need to keep Prince for 2-3 more years at least, but I just can't let some of this go...
In Snyder's first season he won 1 more game than the team had posted in the year before he arrived (there being a total of 0 wins in the two years before Snyder). In year two he was +5 wins over his starting point. In year three he was +7 wins over his starting point. (The most wins in almost 40 years for KSU.)
In Prince's first season he won 2 more games than the team posted the year before (in a 12-game season). In year two, he will need to win 10 games to match Snyder's progression (which can't happen). Next year, he needs to win 12 games to match Snyder's progression.
Snyder was already obviously a tremendous coach in his third season to those of us watching at the time. :cyclist:
-
Time to QFT myself:
Even if you think Ron's mediocre, you still have to give at least 4, probably 5 years. Firing coaches after 2 or 3 years (unless they are ungodly horrible) isn't really a good practice.
I hope KSU fans are bracing for next year. It doesn't look all that promising. I think the schedule is more difficult than this year (although that still won't keep me from melting down).
It's amazing how much this board is melting down now that catzacker is one of the more positive / let's see Prince through posters.
People got far too giddy after the Texas win -- this team is the same as it was at the start of the season, a 6-7 win team with a tough schedule.
Those of us who predicted a low number of wins based on personnel and schedule are still "emotionally neutral". While those who swore up and down that this was a 9+ win team are looking like the Husker fans who have their self esteem determined by how a football team does