KSUFans Archives
Sports => Snyder's Electronic Cyber Space World => Topic started by: kougar24 on November 05, 2007, 07:33:34 AM
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Am I being unrealistic when I say that "bowl berth" isn't a worthy goal these days? I mean, you don't even have to have a winning record to get one, and frankly, I have a hard time imagining recruits getting a hard on for the Texas Bowl.
I bring this up because it makes me mad when our fans keep saying "just get to a bowl." I'm having a hard time mustering up the ability to even give a crap whether we go to Houston again or stay home.
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Yes. It should be a goal, but not the goal. The goals should be:
1. National Champ
2. Conference Champ
3. Division Champ
4. Bowl Game
5. Don't lose to Baylor
It is important to go to a bowl because it's another "metric" to say that your program is improving or is a good program.
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It is important to go to a bowl because it's another "metric" to say that your program is improving or is a good program.
Is it, though? Would beating a sorry NU team this weekend and going to the Texas Bowl again say anything about K-State being a good program?
I don't think so.
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It is important to go to a bowl because it's another "metric" to say that your program is improving or is a good program.
Is it, though? Would beating a sorry NU team this weekend and going to the Texas Bowl again say anything about K-State being a good program?
I don't think so.
If we go 7-5 it doesn't say we are a great program. But it doesn't say we are horrible either. Its a sign that the program is going in the right direction, but there still may be some cause for concern. More good than bad IMO though. 6-6 and a bowl birth isn't nearly as good IMO. Prince has to at least match last year's record (with a tougher schedule) and even that is a bit disappointing after starting the Big 12 with the win at UT.
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well if you have read "leadership lessons" none of those are goals but the byproduct of goal achievement.
GOCATS!!!
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If a coach goes to a bowl game every year at KSU, he shouldn't be fired.
If you sustain that success, you'll get better than everyone else because of turnover in the league.
I know I say it over and over, but all I want from KSU football is a bowl game every year and a North title once every 4 or 5.
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It's so easy to get to a bowl game that if you don't make it you really look bad. So it should be a goal in the sense that, while you may not be that good of a team, at least you aren't so crappy you can't make a bowl.
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Am I being unrealistic when I say that "bowl berth" isn't a worthy goal these days? I mean, you don't even have to have a winning record to get one, and frankly, I have a hard time imagining recruits getting a hard on for the Texas Bowl.
I bring this up because it makes me mad when our fans keep saying "just get to a bowl." I'm having a hard time mustering up the ability to even give a crap whether we go to Houston again or stay home.
Agreed for the most part. Lower tier bowl = basketball NIT. Its nice and all, but it definitely doesn't mean what it used to just to get into any old bowl game. On the other hand, making any bowl at all is important because you get the extra weeks of practice time.
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Get better every day
It's sage advice that results in excellence which leads to the things that are deserved. Gotta focus on the right things.
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Going to a bowl is certainly better then the alternative. At this point in this season it's all that is left. So yeah it's our goal for the rest of this year and I think it's pretty important for the program to make a bowl every year at a minimum. That said not making one last year didn't seem to hurt ku too badly.
To me making a bowl is not a measure of success I have higher standards to declare success but not making a bowl is certainly a meaure of failure. If we don't make one then the season will have been a failure just like the 04 and 05 seasons were.
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IMO, now that we have an extra game, making it to a bowl game is more difficult, especially the way Ron wants to schedule. It just seemed easier for the past 15 years because we had good/great teams that made it look easy. I mean, the NORTH has 2 top 10 BCS teams, and on our schedule this year we play/will play 4 teams in the top 20 BCS.
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Good responses.
Rusty, I'd say winning the North at least once every 3 (to 4...okay) years should be reasonable for K-State.
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Good responses.
Rusty, I'd say winning the North at least once every 3 (to 4...okay) years should be reasonable for K-State.
would you fire ron if he doesn't win the north next season?
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Prince needs 4 years before the thought of firing him should come up. I cant see otherwise.
I think that we have gotten off track (or maybe it's me) I thought that the meaning of this thread was Should Bowl Eligibility be dropped as a goal. That is, should we drop the attitude of just being Bowl Eligible, just getting to 6-6 or 7-5 = success. I think so, as that breeds mediocraty. A bowl birth used to be the standard around here anything less was failure. I am perfectly aware of the final years of Snyder and that crap, BUT even though it is a sign of improvement - you all cant say that you are disappointed (even last year) in a lower tier bowl. I know that I am.
4 years, boys - that is the benchmark. Mangina and his first 5 yrs = the luckiest coach alive, epitomy of making it by the "skin of his fat ass".
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Good responses.
Rusty, I'd say winning the North at least once every 3 (to 4...okay) years should be reasonable for K-State.
would you fire ron if he doesn't win the north next season?
Well, I said "to 4," so it would be after Year 4, not next year. I'd have to say I'd consider it. I might give him a "grace period" of 2 years as a new coach to implement his system, which would give him 5-6 years to win it. That would depend on how close we were in Year 4, though. If we finished in the bottom third, I'd probably fire him, yes.
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Prince needs 4 years before the thought of firing him should come up. I cant see otherwise.
I think that we have gotten off track (or maybe it's me) I thought that the meaning of this thread was Should Bowl Eligibility be dropped as a goal. That is, should we drop the attitude of just being Bowl Eligible, just getting to 6-6 or 7-5 = success. I think so, as that breeds mediocraty. A bowl birth used to be the standard around here anything less was failure. I am perfectly aware of the final years of Snyder and that crap, BUT even though it is a sign of improvement - you all cant say that you are disappointed (even last year) in a lower tier bowl. I know that I am.
4 years, boys - that is the benchmark. Mangina and his first 5 yrs = the luckiest coach alive, epitomy of making it by the "skin of his fat ass".
I think you're kind of muddying the line between "team goals", "fan expectations", and "administration requirements". (everyone is, really).
If the "team goal", is to get to a bowl game, that's a problem.
If an "administration requirement" is to get to a bowl game every year, I'm fine with that.
"Fan expectations" are basically meaningless and should largely be ignored.
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Yeah, that's fair. Look at my above post in the light of "team goals," then. Do you think, given a grace period of 2 years to build, it's unreasonable as a team/administration to expect to win the North once every 3 to 4 years? I just think once in 5 may be stretching a bit too low.
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Yeah, that's fair. Look at my above post in the light of "team goals," then. Do you think, given a grace period of 2 years to build, it's unreasonable as a team/administration to expect to win the North once every 3 to 4 years? I just think once in 5 may be stretching a bit too low.
I think you'd have to look at the circumstances on the North Title requirement. I also think 2 years is an odd "grace period".
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Kind of a tangent question:
Would you endure the first 6 years of Pinkel and the first 5 years of Mangino if you knew you'd get the seasons they're having now?
For reference:
Pinkel:
2001-02 Missouri 4-7 .364
2002-03 Missouri 5-7 .417
2003-04 Missouri 8-5 .615
2004-05 Missouri 5-6 .455
2005-06 Missouri 7-5 .583
2006-07 Missouri 8-5 .615
Mangino:
2002-03 Kansas 2-10 .167
2003-04 Kansas 6-7 .462
2004-05 Kansas 4-7 .364
2005-06 Kansas 7-5 .583
2006-07 Kansas 6-6 .500
9 games deep into the season:
1. Ohio State (60) 10-0 1,616
2. LSU (5) 8-1 1,523
3. Oregon 8-1 1,517
4. Oklahoma 8-1 1,421
5. Kansas 9-0 1,329
6. West Virginia 7-1 1,327
7. Missouri 8-1 1,260
8. Boston College 8-1 1,051
9. Arizona State 8-1 1,042
10. Georgia 7-2 1,021
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Kind of a tangent question:
Would you endure the first 6 years of Pinkel and the first 5 years of Mangino if you knew you'd get the seasons they're having now?
For reference:
Pinkel:
2001-02 Missouri 4-7 .364
2002-03 Missouri 5-7 .417
2003-04 Missouri 8-5 .615
2004-05 Missouri 5-6 .455
2005-06 Missouri 7-5 .583
2006-07 Missouri 8-5 .615
Mangino:
2002-03 Kansas 2-10 .167
2003-04 Kansas 6-7 .462
2004-05 Kansas 4-7 .364
2005-06 Kansas 7-5 .583
2006-07 Kansas 6-6 .500
9 games deep into the season:
1. Ohio State (60) 10-0 1,616
2. LSU (5) 8-1 1,523
3. Oregon 8-1 1,517
4. Oklahoma 8-1 1,421
5. Kansas 9-0 1,329
6. West Virginia 7-1 1,327
7. Missouri 8-1 1,260
8. Boston College 8-1 1,051
9. Arizona State 8-1 1,042
10. Georgia 7-2 1,021
Knowing that they'd have that success? Of course. But we don't know that. And why is 2 years an odd grace period? That's enough time to plug in holes, bring in coaches, and implement a system.
I don't know. This isn't concrete enough to really argue with you over the frequency of North titles, so let me put it this way: at the very least, they'd have to compete for the North once every 3 years (i.e. this season would not count toward that) and win it every 4 or 5. Would that be more agreeable?
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FWIW, I think Ron will have a Pinkel like run from '03 on (i.e. 8-5, 5-6, 7-5, etc.). I'll be curious if that will be enough. I wish Bill would get another head coaching job somewhere and fail terribly. It would help our fan base immensely. Prince is going to get Gary Gibb'd.
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^kougs, You would have fired both coaches, and endured a 2-10 Brent Venables "grace" season.
FWIW.
FWIW, I think Ron will have a Pinkel like run from '03 on (i.e. 8-5, 5-6, 7-5, etc.). I'll be curious if that will be enough. I wish Bill would get another head coaching job somewhere and fail terribly. It would help our fan base immensely. Prince is going to get Gary Gibb'd.
I think you're right, and then the idiot fans will get John Blaked right in the ass.
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^kougs, You would have fired both coaches, and endured a 2-10 Brent Venables "grace" season.
Are you telling me what I'd do? Pinkel's track record goes against my "formula," yes, but Mangino, assuming he wins the North, does not. This would have been his last chance, and after this year, he'd have to compete for the North every 3 years, winning it at least every fourth.
Look, there are always exceptions. I'm just spitballing here, trying to get a grasp on what our administration's expectations should be.
Would you not have fired either Pinkel or Mangino by now BEFORE you knew how this season played out?
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Kind of a tangent question:
Would you endure the first 6 years of Pinkel and the first 5 years of Mangino if you knew you'd get the seasons they're having now?
For reference:
Pinkel:
2001-02 Missouri 4-7 .364
2002-03 Missouri 5-7 .417
2003-04 Missouri 8-5 .615
2004-05 Missouri 5-6 .455
2005-06 Missouri 7-5 .583
2006-07 Missouri 8-5 .615
Mangino:
2002-03 Kansas 2-10 .167
2003-04 Kansas 6-7 .462
2004-05 Kansas 4-7 .364
2005-06 Kansas 7-5 .583
2006-07 Kansas 6-6 .500
9 games deep into the season:
1. Ohio State (60) 10-0 1,616
2. LSU (5) 8-1 1,523
3. Oregon 8-1 1,517
4. Oklahoma 8-1 1,421
5. Kansas 9-0 1,329
6. West Virginia 7-1 1,327
7. Missouri 8-1 1,260
8. Boston College 8-1 1,051
9. Arizona State 8-1 1,042
10. Georgia 7-2 1,021
If it was a guarantee that Prince would have similar results, I would have no problems right now. But, we let Wooldridge hang around for 6 years and he didn't amount to crap. I think you have to ask yourself at the end of 4 years "is this program going in the right direction". If you answer yes, you stick with your guy. If you truly think that someone isn't getting it done, and can't get it done, then I think you need to make a move.
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Prince is almost "hurting" himself by going 7-6 in his first season, instead of tanking like Hawkins did. We're having nearly identical season as CU, and CU fans are for the most part thrilled because they see progress (freshman QB, young players, etc.). Ron's throwing stuff against the wall and seeing what sticks. The difference is that we have a lot of JR's and SR's on the defense and the offense looks fairly top heavy as well. Next year I worry even more about the defense, after next year I worry about the entire team.
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Good responses.
Rusty, I'd say winning the North at least once every 3 (to 4...okay) years should be reasonable for K-State.
I agree with Koug to a point here. However I'd modify it with "contend" for a North title every year. Granted contending is a subjective measurment but there are just too many varibles to have iron clad rules of 4 years.....no North title.....show coach the door.
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Making a bowl game is CRITICAL because of the extra practices.
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Making a bowl game is CRITICAL because of the extra practices.
You think 3 weeks of light practices after a full season is going to do that much? Obviously, it's impossible to quantify, but I can't imagine it doing a whole lot extra.
I'm not saying it hurts, mind you.
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Making a bowl game is CRITICAL because of the extra practices.
You think 3 weeks of light practices after a full season is going to do that much? Obviously, it's impossible to quantify, but I can't imagine it doing a whole lot extra.
I'm not saying it hurts, mind you.
Helps younger players learn and develop in the system. When you aren't practicing, you're not helping your younger players learn the system and get them ready for the next year.
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Making a bowl game is CRITICAL because of the extra practices.
You think 3 weeks of light practices after a full season is going to do that much? Obviously, it's impossible to quantify, but I can't imagine it doing a whole lot extra.
I'm not saying it hurts, mind you.
I'm glad you asked. It's not too hard to quantify.
62% of teams that made a bowl in 2004 also made a bowl in 2005.
This means that 38% of 2004 bowl teams failed to make a bowl in 2005. The extra practice they got in 2004 did not help them make a bowl in 2005.
It also means that 38% of 2005 bowl teams made a bowl despite not having extra practice in 2004.
It is entirely reasonable to assume that many of the repeat bowl teams would have made a bowl in 2005 had they not had extra practice in 2004 (suppose they were on probation in 2004, for example). These are the teams that were good enough in 2005 that extra practice in 2004 was not a deciding factor in whether or not they made a bowl in 2005.
Given that only half of the 35 repeat bowl teams fit the above description, the following are true:
Having extra practice in 2004 did not help 54% of 2004 bowl teams to make a bowl in 2005.
Not having extra practice in 2004 would not have kept 54% of 2005 bowl teams from making their bowl in 2005.
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We've had the "importance of bowl practice" debate before. I do think it would be beneficial for this program where we are right now. Usually you take nearly a week and work your younger guys for the next year. I think that would be of great benefit, especially for the continued development (hopefully) of the defense and of our younger WRs.
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They don't seem to be benefitting from in season practice. I don't know why post season practice would help.
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FAN, you know I respect the hell out of your opinions, but you really think a single week of practice would help the young kids out "greatly"?
I just don't see it.
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FAN, you know I respect the hell out of your opinions, but you really think a single week of practice would help the young kids out "greatly"?
I just don't see it.
Great is probably overstating things. I think anytime you can give young guys extra significant practice doing "our stuff" it helps. Remember, most of these guys are spending most of their snaps on scout teams during the season. They learn a lot from watching film of the games and what goes into practice, but their snaps for the most part aren't going to be doing our stuff. I do think it helps to give them a week of practice during bowl season and then a few months later significant time in the spring before the summer.
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In ANY other program, I think that Mangina would be back working at the PA turnpike authority. Pinkel, eh - who knows, BUT with the talent that he has had in the past, he really doesn't have a leg to stand on with his results.
Mangina either - sold ku AD a line of goods or is the luckiest person alive. This season couldn't have come at a better time for ku - dead horse. Hopefully, they dont blow it as historically - they have.
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Hopefully, they dont blow it as historically - they have.
WTF?
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Prince should be given 4 years. Winning the north every 3-4 years is a reasonable expectation/goal to have. If Prince is in year 4 and is not close to winning the north, I'm talking 3-5, 2-6 record, then I will be worried.
I think most people before this season that weren't completely powertards thought that this season had 6 or 7 wins and any more than that would mean upsets had to occur. As it stands, i see that we've won one game we shouldn't have and lost 1 that we shouldn't have.
Playing Auburn to the wire and pounding texas greatly inflated our expectations especially since many of us thought that ku wasn't legit based on their schedule, which was clearly bias and stupid of many of us.
This team is just plain not good enough to overcome mistakes like we made on Sat, even when playing against "inferior" competition. However I do think that it says something that when we do not make mistakes we have the talent and capability of pounding more talented teams which does say something positive about the coaches and players that they have assembled.
What the year boils down to is that we are a very average team dispite early season optimism of "greatness". We are clearly not consitant enough to compete for the north title. And that is usually what separates good teams from average teams.
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Good responses.
Rusty, I'd say winning the North at least once every 3 (to 4...okay) years should be reasonable for K-State.
would you fire ron if he doesn't win the north next season?
Well, I said "to 4," so it would be after Year 4, not next year. I'd have to say I'd consider it. I might give him a "grace period" of 2 years as a new coach to implement his system, which would give him 5-6 years to win it. That would depend on how close we were in Year 4, though. If we finished in the bottom third, I'd probably fire him, yes.
4 years without a title will mean he squandered 4 years of having a pretty good QB.
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Hopefully, they dont blow it as historically - they have.
WTF?
Historically means, prior to this season. Does it make sense now? Remember the close losses etc blowing games at the end.
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Hopefully, they dont blow it as historically - they have.
WTF?
Historically means, prior to this season. Does it make sense now? Remember the close losses etc blowing games at the end.
That wasn't what I was WTF-ing about. I should have bolded "Hopefully." Why do you hope ku doesn't blow it?
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Goals:
1. Beat ku
2. Beat ku
3. Beat ku
4. National Championship
5. Beat ku
6. Undefeated Season
7. Beat ku
8. Destroy ku
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Teams should always strive to make post-season play, so in that frame-of-mind, making a bowl game every season is the objective. What type of bowl game, now there's the question and a reflection of where the team is (though, not where it may be going).
I do like that Prince believes the team needs at least 7 wins to make a bowl game. He understands it's not enough to just qualify. It also puts some needed pressure on the players to step up and respond. If they do, 7 wins is possible. If not, then some alarming questions will need to be asked. But, I would caution fans not to jump off the ship or start calling for a coaching change. Prince needs, at a minimum, 4 years to install his system and philosophy and get his type of players. Once Snyder's recruits have departed, we can judge whether Prince, and his system, is right for the long term.
R.J.
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Be the best in the state.
Be the best in the North.
Be the best in the Big 12.
Be the best in the nation.
If you can be the best in the North/Big 12 without being the best in the state that is fine. ku is important, but not the end all for K-State.
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If you can be the best in the North/Big 12 without being the best in the state that is fine.
So how would that be accomplished?
Despite head to heads, the team with the better north record will essentially be the better team.
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Goldy, would please explain to us why you went nearly 3 months without posting?? Out of the country, your mom disconnected your DSL line???
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If you can be the best in the North/Big 12 without being the best in the state that is fine.
So how would that be accomplished?
K-State gets beat by ku but still finishes ahead of ku in the standings. That isn't that hard. For example, if KSU beats MU, then ku is north champs even if they lose to MU.
I'm more getting at the notion if all you do is be the best in your state but never contend for the North or Big 12 title, then you aren't getting the job done. If beating your rival becomes more important than other goals like being competitive in the league, then you are headed in the wrong direction. However, I will fully accept that ku essentually did that with Mangino and it worked out, but that doesn't happen very often.
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Goldy, would please explain to us why you went nearly 3 months without posting?? Out of the country, your mom disconnected your DSL line???
Do you want more of me?
Been at the warzone.
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Odd, that you wouldn't post on this board (since nobody gets banned) for nearly 3 months and then when you know for sure that ku is going to have a pretty darned good season you suddenly show up again.
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You can check dates. I posted at the warzone at least a week before the ku/Ksu game. Plenty of times to get shots in for anyone that wanted to.
This place is gopowercat revisited. Its not as if I'm running rampant all over it throwing ku in your face.
And Rodless has banned me from here before.
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Well, you know Goldy dropped out of school and has more time now....
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Yes, in a fictional world, I have indeed done so.
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Say you're saying anime IS real?
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You can check dates. I posted at the warzone at least a week before the ku/Ksu game. Plenty of times to get shots in for anyone that wanted to.
This place is gopowercat revisited. Its not as if I'm running rampant all over it throwing ku in your face.
And Rodless has banned me from here before.
I never said you running "rampant" . . . and no this isn't gopwercat revisited on here, not even close by any stretch of the imagination.
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You can check dates. I posted at the warzone at least a week before the ku/Ksu game. Plenty of times to get shots in for anyone that wanted to.
This place is gopowercat revisited. Its not as if I'm running rampant all over it throwing ku in your face.
And Rodless has banned me from here before.
I never said you running "rampant" . . . and no this isn't gopwercat revisited on here, not even close by any stretch of the imagination.
Its pretty damn close.
Seriously.
Tards all over the place. Opinions forced down others throats. About the only real difference is the people here see the logic in not paying for information that may or may not be exclusive for about two hours before it enters mainstream.
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Say you're saying anime IS real?
I'm saying anime is more interesting than Battlestar Galactica.
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Hmmm . . . well since we aren't capable of having discussion that meets your high standards goldy, why even bother posting here??
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If a coach goes to a bowl game every year at KSU, he shouldn't be fired.
If you sustain that success, you'll get better than everyone else because of turnover in the league.
I know I say it over and over, but all I want from KSU football is a bowl game every year and a North title once every 4 or 5.
Agreed. 7-5 and 8-4 every year with the occasional 9 or 10 wins and B12 championship game is all I ask. Is that so much? Me thinks not.
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Hmmm . . . well since we aren't capable of having discussion that meets your high standards goldy, why even bother posting here??
I'm not saying 100% of the discussion sucks.
I'm saying 98% of the discussion sucks.
Sometimes I post for the 2%.
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Hmmm . . . well since we aren't capable of having discussion that meets your high standards goldy, why even bother posting here??
I'm not saying 100% of the discussion sucks.
I'm saying 98% of the discussion sucks.
Sometimes I post for the 2%.
Okay . . . super. :thumbsup:
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I'd gladly sacrifice a bowl trip this year if it means keeping ku out of the Big XII Championship or MNC game.