KSUFans Archives
Sports => Snyder's Electronic Cyber Space World => Topic started by: The Manhatter on June 05, 2007, 08:03:14 PM
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first of all I think it's great that Butler is getting some of the kids exposure. And I'm referring more to the kids who don't have the money to go touring around to Nike camps, attend other camps, etc. but in one setting some mid-major D1, D1AA, or D2....that is awfully valuable for those types of kids. While the big coaches from the BCS progams were talked about there were plenty of coaches from lower divisions. They don't have the recruiting budgets and if these kids don't get in front of them at their camps then these opportunities may not come.
As for the Browns and Harper types...every coach in America knows who they are...they are obviously the main attraction and help to hype the camp and bring in the numbers but the camp serves a better purpose for the less known kids. duh. It also emphasizes to make the camp director a VIP.
Having said that..."Potential Players" wants to tour a # of Kansas kids to different camps across the country. That takes money and not just a few hundred buckaroos. We're talking renting vans, gas money, food, lodging, camp fees...everything. And I would think as many places on both coasts they plan to visit...we're talking 5 figure expenses. Any of you think a few barbeques is going to raise that kind of money?
discuss.
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Just give it straight to the Browns.
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It's clear that you think something dirty is going on. I just hope that our boosters are the one's doing it.
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Instead of building a new practice basketball facility, we should give it to the Browns.
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I didn't feel this way initially, but Butler is a terrible thing for us.
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We could name the stadium after them..
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It's clear that you think something dirty is going on. I just hope that our boosters are the one's doing it.
Who wants to start going door-to-door with me?
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Butler is a bad thing for KSU because we don't have an "in" with him. If Ron had a Art Alvarez relationship with Butler, I'd love Butler. I think we're a few years away from Butler being good for us. He has to make a name for himself and the Brown Brothers and Harper are just the kids to do that...and sending thems to KSU doesn't make a name for him at all. It doesn't help that Snyder and Co. rammed our program into the ground in their final two seasons and we're up agianst USC, OU, and Florida who have all won national championships in the last 7 years and have entirely better football programs than us.
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I didn't feel this way initially, but Butler is a terrible thing for us.
I wouldn't say that.
And regardless of any of the Brown stuff keep in mind this is a good thing for those mid-major, D1AA, etc. prospects...forget what you think about the other stuff...that is a very good thing he is doing.
Now getting back to what you said...Wimbley was the last national kid to come out of Wichita. That was 2002...so 6 years has passed. There is not a national recruit in Wichita every year..that is just logic. Shoot, there are years ku and KSU do not sign kids in Wichita. That will not change because of "Potential Players" started up...talent is talent, period.
Then you go back to these camps...do you honestly think Carroll, Meyer, Stoops, and all of the other coaches are going to show up every year when there is no Brown type of prospect? Puuhlease..they may, and I stress "may" send an asst as a courtesy but they won't be there in years were there is not a national prospect.
And getting back to the money part...he is in the state of Kansas. There are far more KSU and ku fans in this state than any other program. Do you think some OU, USC, or whatever moneybags is going to make "charitable contributions" to "potential players" in the dry years? Hardly. I could see some fans of in-state schools making contributions on a yearly basis....but not just so Butler can flash the browns in front of an LSU, Miami, etc. F that.
I think we all know what that means...don't bite the hand that could potentially feed "Potential Players" in the future and in particular, the dry years.
Just some things to think about.
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Is it wrong that I'm hoping they don't raise any money..?
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Butler is a bad thing for KSU because we don't have an "in" with him. If Ron had a Art Alvarez relationship with Butler, I'd love Butler. I think we're a few years away from Butler being good for us. He has to make a name for himself and the Brown Brothers and Harper are just the kids to do that...and sending thems to KSU doesn't make a name for him at all. It doesn't help that Snyder and Co. rammed our program into the ground in their final two seasons and we're up agianst USC, OU, and Florida who have all won national championships in the last 7 years and have entirely better football programs than us.
when there are no Browns in the city how will business be for "Potential Players". I wouldn't say we don't have an "in" w/ this Art Alvarez type of relationship. In fact I think it could be far more beneficial for the in-state schools than vise versa.
There are KSU fans who own things like car dealerships w/ in a stone's throw of Wichita...think "donating" a few rental vans for the tour could be something easily done?
All I'm saying is that it's far more likely a "helping hand" is there from in-state in the dry years than it will be from elsewhere.
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I didn't feel this way initially, but Butler is a terrible thing for us.
I wouldn't say that.
And regardless of any of the Brown stuff keep in mind this is a good thing for those mid-major, D1AA, etc. prospects...forget what you think about the other stuff...that is a very good thing he is doing.
Now getting back to what you said...Wimbley was the last national kid to come out of Wichita. That was 2002...so 6 years has passed. There is not a national recruit in Wichita every year..that is just logic. Shoot, there are years ku and KSU do not sign kids in Wichita. That will not change because of "Potential Players" started up...talent is talent, period.
Then you go back to these camps...do you honestly think Carroll, Meyer, Stoops, and all of the other coaches are going to show up every year when there is no Brown type of prospect? Puuhlease..they may, and I stress "may" send an asst as a courtesy but they won't be there in years were there is not a national prospect.
And getting back to the money part...he is in the state of Kansas. There are far more KSU and ku fans in this state than any other program. Do you think some OU, USC, or whatever moneybags is going to make "charitable contributions" to "potential players" in the dry years? Hardly. I could see some fans of in-state schools making contributions on a yearly basis....but not just so Butler can flash the browns in front of an LSU, Miami, etc. F that.
I think we all know what that means...don't bite the hand that could potentially feed "Potential Players" in the future and in particular, the dry years.
Just some things to think about.
Post that for the powertards. I'm sure some may feel generous.
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Is it wrong that I'm hoping they don't raise any money..?
no reason to "hope" because it will happen. I just hope it's from KSU backers and not other schools w/ a little "wink, wink" and a "I might want to make charitable contributions on a yearly basis IF..."
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Butler is a bad thing for KSU because we don't have an "in" with him. If Ron had a Art Alvarez relationship with Butler, I'd love Butler. I think we're a few years away from Butler being good for us. He has to make a name for himself and the Brown Brothers and Harper are just the kids to do that...and sending thems to KSU doesn't make a name for him at all. It doesn't help that Snyder and Co. rammed our program into the ground in their final two seasons and we're up agianst USC, OU, and Florida who have all won national championships in the last 7 years and have entirely better football programs than us.
when there are no Browns in the city how will business be for "Potential Players". I wouldn't say we don't have an "in" w/ this Art Alvarez type of relationship. In fact I think it could be far more beneficial for the in-state schools than vise versa.
There are KSU fans who own things like car dealerships w/ in a stone's throw of Wichita...think "donating" a few rental vans for the tour could be something easily done?
All I'm saying is that it's far more likely a "helping hand" is there from in-state in the dry years than it will be from elsewhere.
Exactly. But I think he has to "establish" Potential Players as an organization and you do that by making a splash...sending the Browns and Harper to KSU doesn't do that (but that's not necessarily why we won't get them, we won't get them because other schools are better than KSU). I think Butler will be good for KSU, but not this year and not with the Browns and Harper. I wish I won he lottery, because I would bankroll Potential Players.
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Exactly. But I think he has to "establish" Potential Players as an organization and you do that by making a splash...sending the Browns and Harper to KSU doesn't do that (but that's not necessarily why we won't get them, we won't get them because other schools are better than KSU). I think Butler will be good for KSU, but not this year and not with the Browns and Harper. I wish I won he lottery, because I would bankroll Potential Players.
"Splash"...there is no "splash". The "splash" has already occured. Everybody knows who he is and about his organization, period. The marketing is done...the product is known.
I thought what you were thinking initially...and then it hit me. Talent. Dry years. Do you really think all of these programs are going to give two craps about Wichita in the lean years? No, they don't. They won't give a damn, period. But they will be back in years when there is a national prospect...they will ALWAYS be there in a year when there is a national prospect and it won't make a damn bit of a difference if the Browns and Harper did sign w/ KSU. No "splash" is needed..that occured. The name is out there.
Again, this operation is in the state of Kansas...and like I said. What happens in the dry years? ku and KSU are always going to be here and care about the kids in Wichita first and far more likely to "help" out.
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and one other thing..."who is better than KSU"? Miami? They skated by Nevada and Duke last year...they play in front of a half-empty stadium unless FSU is in town. Why is Miami in the "final 3"? My guess is because of the number of 1st rounders they have had...but then that would be stupid to assume Miami can get a player in the first round more than any other school. They have been poorly coached. The reason they are first rounders and because they have more is because they have had the 1st round talent, period. It's a myth to say a talented kid is more likely to be a first rounder at a Miami than a ku or KSU...a myth. Talent is talent whether it's Patrick Willis playing at Ole Miss or the kid who went in the first round to the Cowboys from Purdue.
As far as the team...we have some good young talent despite some of the slams on this board...add an Arthur Brown, Bryce Brown...recruits like those will lead some other great players to KSU.
And to have a great team you don't need a roster full of 4 and 5 stars...you only need 2 or 3 difference makers on either side of the ball to have a great team..that's it. We can get that.
Did you see the Oklahoma national title team in '00? Not a single OL or DL drafted from the starters on that team...not one. Only one wide receiver from that team was drafted and as a corner. Griffin and Heupel were later rounds.
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Hatter, you of all people should not be surprised as to why/how recruits make their college choices. For all intensive purposes, myth or not,regardless of how you see it, OU, USC, Florida, Notre Dame, LSU and even Miami (just to name a few on his 22 schools) are "better" programs than KSU. I assume Miami is on there because Butler probably grew up watching the good Miami teams.
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There are plenty of good reasons to want to go to Miami. Some of them have nothing to do with any aspect of the university, let alone the football program.
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Hatter, you of all people should not be surprised as to why/how recruits make their college choices. For all intensive purposes, myth or not,regardless of how you see it, OU, USC, Florida, Notre Dame, LSU and even Miami (just to name a few on his 22 schools) are "better" programs than KSU. I assume Miami is on there because Butler probably grew up watching the good Miami teams.
QFT. You go to those programs more or less for the same reason the rich asian kid goes to ivy league schools. Just to say you went there.
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Hatter, you of all people should not be surprised as to why/how recruits make their college choices. For all intensive purposes, myth or not,regardless of how you see it, OU, USC, Florida, Notre Dame, LSU and even Miami (just to name a few on his 22 schools) are "better" programs than KSU. I assume Miami is on there because Butler probably grew up watching the good Miami teams.
Actually, he probably grew up watching KSU.
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Read my notebook tomorrow. You'll understand a little better where Brian is coming from. Trust, he's a good dude. He makes a lot of good points. I can understand why you guys are bothered, but Hatter is right. The big-time schools knew about the Browns. They weren't going to remain a secret - even though Dave Krider freaking called the Eagle today looking for contact info about Arthur Brown, unaware he had a little brother who is a superstar, too. Thing is, Butler wants this to continue, the Wichita pipeline. Again, as Hatter said, the talent might dry up after next year. But with the training these guys do under Butler, there is always going to be at least one or two Division I prospects every year - if only to keep relations with Butler strong.
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Hatter, you of all people should not be surprised as to why/how recruits make their college choices. For all intensive purposes, myth or not,regardless of how you see it, OU, USC, Florida, Notre Dame, LSU and even Miami (just to name a few on his 22 schools) are "better" programs than KSU. I assume Miami is on there because Butler probably grew up watching the good Miami teams.
QFT. You go to those programs more or less for the same reason the rich asian kid goes to ivy league schools. Just to say you went there.
LOL
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No, you go to those programs to ALWAYS be on television. Why do you think Ron Prince made such a big deal about the Auburn opener? He knows Auburn won't beat K-State by 40 points - the Tigers don't blow anyone out. They get a lead and sit on the ball, leaving the game for their defense to decide. It'll look close, and maybe a couple of recruits will be impressed with how he prowls the sideline. It's all about exposure, and don't think recruits aren't interested, either.
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After reading GP's opinions on Butler, I thought we had no shot. I do now though. Long live Prince!
:ksu:
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No, you go to those programs to ALWAYS be on television. Why do you think Ron Prince made such a big deal about the Auburn opener? He knows Auburn won't beat K-State by 40 points - the Tigers don't blow anyone out. They get a lead and sit on the ball, leaving the game for their defense to decide. It'll look close, and maybe a couple of recruits will be impressed with how he prowls the sideline. It's all about exposure, and don't think recruits aren't interested, either.
Not if Josh Freeman and his turnover bandwagon have anything to say about it.
Also, I get what Butler is doing, but if talent is not dependent on who's training it (i.e. Wichita would have "produced" the Brown brothers irregardless of Butler being there) then Butler has, essentially, made himself the mediator/middle man...and for what purpose?
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No, you go to those programs to ALWAYS be on television. Why do you think Ron Prince made such a big deal about the Auburn opener? He knows Auburn won't beat K-State by 40 points - the Tigers don't blow anyone out. They get a lead and sit on the ball, leaving the game for their defense to decide. It'll look close, and maybe a couple of recruits will be impressed with how he prowls the sideline. It's all about exposure, and don't think recruits aren't interested, either.
Not if Josh Freeman and his turnover bandwagon have anything to say about it.
Also, I get what Butler is doing, but if talent is not dependent on who's training it (i.e. Wichita would have "produced" the Brown brothers irregardless of Butler being there) then Butler has, essentially, made himself the mediator/middle man...and for what purpose?
To provide opportunities he wishes he had.
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http://www.realcities.com/mld/kansas/sports/colleges/kansas_state_university/qa_forum.html
:)
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No, you go to those programs to ALWAYS be on television. Why do you think Ron Prince made such a big deal about the Auburn opener? He knows Auburn won't beat K-State by 40 points - the Tigers don't blow anyone out. They get a lead and sit on the ball, leaving the game for their defense to decide. It'll look close, and maybe a couple of recruits will be impressed with how he prowls the sideline. It's all about exposure, and don't think recruits aren't interested, either.
Not if Josh Freeman and his turnover bandwagon have anything to say about it.
Also, I get what Butler is doing, but if talent is not dependent on who's training it (i.e. Wichita would have "produced" the Brown brothers irregardless of Butler being there) then Butler has, essentially, made himself the mediator/middle man...and for what purpose?
To provide opportunities he wishes he had.
But they would have them irregardless because of their talent. "They weren't going to remain a secret".
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No, you go to those programs to ALWAYS be on television. Why do you think Ron Prince made such a big deal about the Auburn opener? He knows Auburn won't beat K-State by 40 points - the Tigers don't blow anyone out. They get a lead and sit on the ball, leaving the game for their defense to decide. It'll look close, and maybe a couple of recruits will be impressed with how he prowls the sideline. It's all about exposure, and don't think recruits aren't interested, either.
Not if Josh Freeman and his turnover bandwagon have anything to say about it.
Also, I get what Butler is doing, but if talent is not dependent on who's training it (i.e. Wichita would have "produced" the Brown brothers irregardless of Butler being there) then Butler has, essentially, made himself the mediator/middle man...and for what purpose?
To provide opportunities he wishes he had.
But they would have them irregardless because of their talent. "They weren't going to remain a secret".
Opportunities to the lesser known guys, dork.
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These kids understand what Brian is doing. He is helping them maximize their ability, and he is using their talent as a canvas for Wichita football. There are three or four juniors to be that will benefit from this exposure. There are more kids down the line. Brian is already working with some eighth-graders, kids who accompanied the Browns on their unofficial visits to K-State.
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There is no doubt in my mind that without Butler, the Browns and especially Harper, would not be as big as they are.
At least not quite yet.
And that means it has been bad for us.
As far as the future prospects that may be turned out...Don't care much about the future beyond 2009.
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There is no doubt in my mind that without Butler, the Browns and especially Harper, would not be as big as they are.
At least not quite yet.
And that means it has been bad for us.
As far as the future prospects that may be turned out...Don't care much about the future beyond 2009.
Agreed on Harper, disagree on the Browns.
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No, you go to those programs to ALWAYS be on television. Why do you think Ron Prince made such a big deal about the Auburn opener? He knows Auburn won't beat K-State by 40 points - the Tigers don't blow anyone out. They get a lead and sit on the ball, leaving the game for their defense to decide. It'll look close, and maybe a couple of recruits will be impressed with how he prowls the sideline. It's all about exposure, and don't think recruits aren't interested, either.
Not if Josh Freeman and his turnover bandwagon have anything to say about it.
Also, I get what Butler is doing, but if talent is not dependent on who's training it (i.e. Wichita would have "produced" the Brown brothers irregardless of Butler being there) then Butler has, essentially, made himself the mediator/middle man...and for what purpose?
To provide opportunities he wishes he had.
But they would have them irregardless because of their talent. "They weren't going to remain a secret".
Opportunities to the lesser known guys, dork.
...like? And who cares about the kids going to Emporia State. The least amount of exposure a recruit gets, the better for KSU. What happens if Butler is around to showcase Lamar Chapman or Mark Simoneau or Rashaad Washington or Monte Beisel? We're probably in a better position to get those kids at that time, but it certainly wouldn't have helped to have to fend off more established, traditional schools, especially the way Snyder recruited (although we did have Brent Venables...he's dreamy).
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I think the existence of Potential Players is bad for KSU.
The less organized and informed kids are, the easier they are to deceive. We aren't Miami, Notre Dame, OU, or USC, but we can make kids believe we are. Listening to Ron Prince, it sounds like he could sell ice to an Eskimo. We don't have "the dream" that Snyder's staff sold to kids in the mid-90's, we need another angle. Ron Prince and his staff needs to figure out what that is ASAP.
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These kids understand what Brian is doing. He is helping them maximize their ability, and he is using their talent as a canvas for Wichita football. There are three or four juniors to be that will benefit from this exposure. There are more kids down the line. Brian is already working with some eighth-graders, kids who accompanied the Browns on their unofficial visits to K-State.
great point. Truthfully..Wichita needs this and I'm glad he's doing it. For selfish reasons I want the Browns and Harper in Manhattan and maybe they will..who knows. But there isn't a sould around who can say this is all bad..if thinking altruistically.
And what JMart points out...some of the 8th graders..that is what Wichita has needed. Some direction and vision. There have been some talented kids in Wichita that never made it out because they had NOTHING to point to..opportunities have been missed in the past. Some great players have come out of there who could have been role models or at least fostered relationships w/ those who could have provided assistance to guide kids in that same direction. This helps immensely...and it great for kids in Kansas in general.
As far as Television...JMart, when KSU is good we are on television a lot. I remember in 2000 the Wildcats were on television, what, 12 of the 14 games?
Bottom line...if Prince brings in a few difference makers on either side of the ball and builds an offensive line he's going to be successful. I know some here don't think that can happen but I will tell you...this first year pointed out some very good things and one of those was special teams play. That special teams play was about as good as some of Snyder's best teams. The better coaches, at least the ones who are consistently good, will have very good special teams play.
You need three things to be a consistent winner as a program...good special teams, good defenses, and good offensive lines. I'm confident Prince will have good special teams and good offensive lines. He's proven in the latter and his first year demonstrated his focus on special teams. Now he needs to build good defenses.
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I know that Prince has coached O-lines in the past, but what makes him "proven?" D'Brickshaw Ferguson? I'm very happy with Prince in general (especially now that he seems to be making love to the microphone a little less often), but I was shocked that our line was yet again awful for much of last year. I've read things about spring ball that made it sound like the O-line will be another big concern this year. At what point does Prince's experience with O-lines begin to pay off in recruiting or on the field?
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I know that Prince has coached O-lines in the past, but what makes him "proven?" D'Brickshaw Ferguson? I'm very happy with Prince in general (especially now that he seems to be making love to the microphone a little less often), but I was shocked that our line was yet again awful for much of last year. I've read things about spring ball that made it sound like the O-line will be another big concern this year. At what point does Prince's experience with O-lines begin to pay off in recruiting or on the field?
I really don't think the line will be as bad as it apparently was at the spring game. We just need them to stay healthy.
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The good thing though is that unless Butler can churn out Arthur Brown clones year after year, he needs KSU and ku more than we need him. Just kinda restating what's been mentioned. But I like my word choice.
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I know that Prince has coached O-lines in the past, but what makes him "proven?" D'Brickshaw Ferguson? I'm very happy with Prince in general (especially now that he seems to be making love to the microphone a little less often), but I was shocked that our line was yet again awful for much of last year. I've read things about spring ball that made it sound like the O-line will be another big concern this year. At what point does Prince's experience with O-lines begin to pay off in recruiting or on the field?
lol, it's not just D'Brickashaw. He also took several kids, in a short time, at UVA who were one offer type kids and built them into NFL draft picks. He had the BEST OL in the NCAA in 2004. Not too many people would debate that either...at least none who had a clue of what they were talking about.
Who cares about last year...you don't build a good or great OL overnight. First of all he has not even recruited the type of personnel he wants running his OL...he had to go w/ what Snyder recruited. And all of those kids had to learn a completely new offense. It doesn't happen like snapping your fingers...coaches are good but they are not magicians and faith healers rolled into one. To question Prince for last year or even this coming year is..well, foolish. Let him build his OL...I promise you that he will build one.
And it was not all lost...last year we were +1.4 ypc in Big 12 play vs. '05. It's moving in the right direction regardless of what some of our spoiled and impatient asses might think.
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It's moving in the right direction regardless of what some of our spoiled and impatient asses might think.
:-[
Yeah. I mean...I'm not ready to give up on Prince's O-line skills or anything. I was asking because I genuinely couldn't remember the justification that I was somewhat satisfied with, which was that he doesn't have the kind of O-linemen whose body types work well with his schemes. You reminded me...thanks.
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How can you forget? It's the same rationalizations every year.
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I saw Alesana Alesana at the rec. Apparently he is there all of the time. The guy is HUGE.