Author Topic: StL County Cops Shoot Teen  (Read 231167 times)

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Offline chum1

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Re: StL County Cops Shoot Teen
« Reply #125 on: August 13, 2014, 04:20:47 PM »
Would you say that no riots have been caused by angry people, only opportunists?

You've substituted "riot" for "looting" - I'm not sure if there's a reason for that or if you mean the same thing, but I'll take it to mean looting. In answer to your question, I have no idea. Never say never, I suppose.

Actually, it looks like you responded to my post about rioting with talk about looting.  Why should we exclude things like vandalism or assault?

Do you think that every time there is a disruptive event, there is also a riot?

Of course not. What's your point?

I was wondering about your theory that disruptive events cause people to riot.  Do you think that every riot is caused by a disruptive event?  At what frequency do you think disruptive events cause riots?  What sorts of things account for the difference between situations in which there are both disruptive events and riots and situations in which there are disruptive events but no riots?

Why do you care about correctly classifying the intentions of the rioters?

I think it's important to correctly identify the intentions of the looters because attributing the looting to the Brown shooting (1) is making excuses for lawless behaviour, and (2) unfairly tarnishes the lawful protests.

Why not just say that there is no excuse for lawless behavior?

Offline nicname

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Re: StL County Cops Shoot Teen
« Reply #126 on: August 13, 2014, 04:22:29 PM »
Clearly the victim here is the black race, not the dead kid or the merchant's whose businesses were destroyed.

Thanks for the levity

I think the martial law discussion is pretty important. It's much more concerning than a looted Quiktrip. (Granted, they're related)

Yeah, that and the relationship between black people, particularly underprivileged, urban black people and police are the biggest issues here. There isn't much to debate about in terms of the actual shooting. And to that end, the protesting, vigils, and to some extent the rioting have been effective in getting people talking about these things.

We'll see how far it goes.
If there was a gif of nicname thwarting the attempted-flag-taker and then gesturing him to suck it, followed by motioning for all of Hilton Shelter to boo him louder, it'd be better than that auburn gif.

Offline nicname

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Re: StL County Cops Shoot Teen
« Reply #127 on: August 13, 2014, 04:23:56 PM »
I missed the Martial Law discussion.  Sounds dumber than the everybody's (society included) racist discussion.

It's not dumb at all.
If there was a gif of nicname thwarting the attempted-flag-taker and then gesturing him to suck it, followed by motioning for all of Hilton Shelter to boo him louder, it'd be better than that auburn gif.

Offline Rage Against the McKee

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Re: StL County Cops Shoot Teen
« Reply #128 on: August 13, 2014, 04:37:56 PM »
I'm reasonably sure that if I was a teenager growing up in the area and all my buds were looting, I would have joined right in, regardless of how I felt about the shooting. Teenagers are really stupid, and by stupid I mean their brains aren't fully developed and don't properly assess risk.

I probably would have stayed home and found new friends.

That's very easy to say.

It's also very easy to do. I can say with 100% confidence that I wouldn't have helped to ransack a gas station and then set it on fire just because some of my friends were doing it.
Yes, this question seems designed to differentiate the alphas and the betas.

Is "ransacking a gas station" more or less reckless or irresponsible than driving while drunk? (Not saying drunk driving is a peer pressure thing, but a poor decision making thing.)

It is far more reckless and irresponsible than driving while drunk.

Offline michigancat

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Re: StL County Cops Shoot Teen
« Reply #129 on: August 13, 2014, 04:51:35 PM »
I'm reasonably sure that if I was a teenager growing up in the area and all my buds were looting, I would have joined right in, regardless of how I felt about the shooting. Teenagers are really stupid, and by stupid I mean their brains aren't fully developed and don't properly assess risk.

I probably would have stayed home and found new friends.

That's very easy to say.

It's also very easy to do. I can say with 100% confidence that I wouldn't have helped to ransack a gas station and then set it on fire just because some of my friends were doing it.
Yes, this question seems designed to differentiate the alphas and the betas.

Is "ransacking a gas station" more or less reckless or irresponsible than driving while drunk? (Not saying drunk driving is a peer pressure thing, but a poor decision making thing.)

It is far more reckless and irresponsible than driving while drunk.

How so?

Offline Rage Against the McKee

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Re: StL County Cops Shoot Teen
« Reply #130 on: August 13, 2014, 04:54:47 PM »
I'm reasonably sure that if I was a teenager growing up in the area and all my buds were looting, I would have joined right in, regardless of how I felt about the shooting. Teenagers are really stupid, and by stupid I mean their brains aren't fully developed and don't properly assess risk.

I probably would have stayed home and found new friends.

That's very easy to say.

It's also very easy to do. I can say with 100% confidence that I wouldn't have helped to ransack a gas station and then set it on fire just because some of my friends were doing it.
Yes, this question seems designed to differentiate the alphas and the betas.

Is "ransacking a gas station" more or less reckless or irresponsible than driving while drunk? (Not saying drunk driving is a peer pressure thing, but a poor decision making thing.)

It is far more reckless and irresponsible than driving while drunk.

How so?

When you drive drunk, odds are you will get home just fine and nobody will be hurt. When you decide to go rob a gas station and light it on fire on your way out, there is a 100% chance that somebody is going to be damaged.

Offline Rage Against the McKee

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Re: StL County Cops Shoot Teen
« Reply #131 on: August 13, 2014, 04:56:23 PM »
If I have a friend who has too much to drink and drives home, I just hope to myself that he gets home ok and doesn't kill anyone. Then the next day I call him and tell him he's an idiot and to take a cab.

If I have a friend who robs a gas station and lights it on fire, I turn him in to the police and never speak to him again.

Offline nicname

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Re: StL County Cops Shoot Teen
« Reply #132 on: August 13, 2014, 05:12:26 PM »
Why the hell are you guys arguing over stupid trivialities right now?
If there was a gif of nicname thwarting the attempted-flag-taker and then gesturing him to suck it, followed by motioning for all of Hilton Shelter to boo him louder, it'd be better than that auburn gif.

Offline john "teach me how to" dougie

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Re: StL County Cops Shoot Teen
« Reply #133 on: August 13, 2014, 05:19:16 PM »
Why the hell are you guys arguing over stupid trivialities right now?

It's Michigancat, so there are 500+ minor semi-related details that can affect the outcome.

Offline michigancat

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Re: StL County Cops Shoot Teen
« Reply #134 on: August 13, 2014, 05:19:54 PM »
If I have a friend who has too much to drink and drives home, I just hope to myself that he gets home ok and doesn't kill anyone. Then the next day I call him and tell him he's an idiot and to take a cab.

If I have a friend who robs a gas station and lights it on fire, I turn him in to the police and never speak to him again.

I think there's a clear distinction between "robbing a gas station and lighting it on fire" solo and being a part of a young, angry mob.

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/mob-mentality-changes-human-brain-say-scientists-1452657
http://psychcentral.com/news/2008/02/15/herd-mentality-explained/1922.html

I would also argue that other than the fire starters, there was little risk of anyone getting killed in the riots - a single participant definitely created less of a death risk (for themselves and others) than a drunk driver.

Why the hell are you guys arguing over stupid trivialities right now?

I think it's important to understand herd or mob mentality when judging those who participated in the riots/looting/burning down gas stations. It's not an excuse, I just think most people who grew up in the situation those kids grew up in would have acted in the same way. Both alphas and betas. Maybe it's not important.

What should we talk about, nicname?

Offline nicname

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Re: StL County Cops Shoot Teen
« Reply #135 on: August 13, 2014, 05:25:20 PM »

Why the hell are you guys arguing over stupid trivialities right now?

Quote
I think it's important to understand herd or mob mentality when judging those who participated in the riots/looting/burning down gas stations. It's not an excuse, I just think most people who grew up in the situation those kids grew up in would have acted in the same way. Both alphas and betas. Maybe it's not important.

What should we talk about, nicname?

I think most on this board already understand that. McKee included. They're just being dickheads and derailing a discussion. As to your question, I think that this incident, like many things, is a great chance to look at it from a big picture perspective. My posts in this thread, I hope mirror that sentiment. Unfortunately for me, it seems I'm basically the only one who feels that way.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2014, 05:36:54 PM by nicname »
If there was a gif of nicname thwarting the attempted-flag-taker and then gesturing him to suck it, followed by motioning for all of Hilton Shelter to boo him louder, it'd be better than that auburn gif.

Offline Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!)

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Re: StL County Cops Shoot Teen
« Reply #136 on: August 13, 2014, 06:17:46 PM »
Looting is not reckless, it is criminal. There's a huge difference between being a negligent moron and an arsonist thief.
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Offline michigancat

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Re: StL County Cops Shoot Teen
« Reply #137 on: August 13, 2014, 06:21:38 PM »
I think most on this board already understand that. McKee included. They're just being dickheads and derailing a discussion. As to your question, I think that this incident, like many things, is a great chance to look at it from a big picture perspective. My posts in this thread, I hope mirror that sentiment. Unfortunately for me, it seems I'm basically the only one who feels that way.

How people look at the Ferguson mobs vs. kids tearing down goalposts or burning couches or drunk drivers is a pretty big picture discussion IMO.

I've heard the story of KSU fans tear down KU's goalposts many times here and elsewhere, but I've never heard anyone refer to them as "animals" or feel the need to claim they wouldn't have participated had they been there, despite the guarantee of destruction of property and disregard for the law.

And I honestly don't think the folks in Ferguson are all acting that different from those K-state fans - they're just in different situations and are mostly black.

So I guess that's why I think it's a worthy discussion.

Offline Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!)

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Re: StL County Cops Shoot Teen
« Reply #138 on: August 13, 2014, 06:23:03 PM »
I missed the Martial Law discussion.  Sounds dumber than the everybody's (society included) racist discussion.

It's not dumb at all.

I bet it is.
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Re: StL County Cops Shoot Teen
« Reply #139 on: August 13, 2014, 06:25:16 PM »
I think most on this board already understand that. McKee included. They're just being dickheads and derailing a discussion. As to your question, I think that this incident, like many things, is a great chance to look at it from a big picture perspective. My posts in this thread, I hope mirror that sentiment. Unfortunately for me, it seems I'm basically the only one who feels that way.

How people look at the Ferguson mobs vs. kids tearing down goalposts or burning couches or drunk drivers is a pretty big picture discussion IMO.

I've heard the story of KSU fans tear down KU's goalposts many times here and elsewhere, but I've never heard anyone refer to them as "animals" or feel the need to claim they wouldn't have participated had they been there, despite the guarantee of destruction of property and disregard for the law.

And I honestly don't think the folks in Ferguson are all acting that different from those K-state fans - they're just in different situations and are mostly black.

So I guess that's why I think it's a worthy discussion.

You've got to be kidding.

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Re: StL County Cops Shoot Teen
« Reply #140 on: August 13, 2014, 06:29:12 PM »
The rose bowl parade and a mob are basically the same thing. The only different is the parade is mostly white people littering the streets with confetti and the mob is black people robbing and torching a gas station. Littering and robbery/arson are both crimes, ya know.
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Offline nicname

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Re: StL County Cops Shoot Teen
« Reply #141 on: August 13, 2014, 06:29:35 PM »
I think most on this board already understand that. McKee included. They're just being dickheads and derailing a discussion. As to your question, I think that this incident, like many things, is a great chance to look at it from a big picture perspective. My posts in this thread, I hope mirror that sentiment. Unfortunately for me, it seems I'm basically the only one who feels that way.

How people look at the Ferguson mobs vs. kids tearing down goalposts or burning couches or drunk drivers is a pretty big picture discussion IMO.

I've heard the story of KSU fans tear down KU's goalposts many times here and elsewhere, but I've never heard anyone refer to them as "animals" or feel the need to claim they wouldn't have participated had they been there, despite the guarantee of destruction of property and disregard for the law.

And I honestly don't think the folks in Ferguson are all acting that different from those K-state fans - they're just in different situations and are mostly black.

So I guess that's why I think it's a worthy discussion.

Come on man.
If there was a gif of nicname thwarting the attempted-flag-taker and then gesturing him to suck it, followed by motioning for all of Hilton Shelter to boo him louder, it'd be better than that auburn gif.

Offline michigancat

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Re: StL County Cops Shoot Teen
« Reply #142 on: August 13, 2014, 06:30:24 PM »
I think most on this board already understand that. McKee included. They're just being dickheads and derailing a discussion. As to your question, I think that this incident, like many things, is a great chance to look at it from a big picture perspective. My posts in this thread, I hope mirror that sentiment. Unfortunately for me, it seems I'm basically the only one who feels that way.

How people look at the Ferguson mobs vs. kids tearing down goalposts or burning couches or drunk drivers is a pretty big picture discussion IMO.

I've heard the story of KSU fans tear down KU's goalposts many times here and elsewhere, but I've never heard anyone refer to them as "animals" or feel the need to claim they wouldn't have participated had they been there, despite the guarantee of destruction of property and disregard for the law.

And I honestly don't think the folks in Ferguson are all acting that different from those K-state fans - they're just in different situations and are mostly black.

So I guess that's why I think it's a worthy discussion.

Come on man.

Read the articles I linked about herd mentality.

Offline EMAWmeister

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Re: StL County Cops Shoot Teen
« Reply #143 on: August 13, 2014, 06:33:20 PM »
It's a valid point

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Re: StL County Cops Shoot Teen
« Reply #144 on: August 13, 2014, 06:36:46 PM »
The defining element in determining the difference between celebration and rioting is definitely the racial composition of the crowd. What's the difference between the Ku Klux klan burning a cross in a yard and homeless black guys burning trash in a can for warmth? The homeless guys are viewed as criminals, that's what.
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Offline nicname

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Re: StL County Cops Shoot Teen
« Reply #145 on: August 13, 2014, 06:38:34 PM »
I missed the Martial Law discussion.  Sounds dumber than the everybody's (society included) racist discussion.

It's not dumb at all.

I bet it is.

You don't think that a heavily armed police force, with some members that take a use fear/ force first, ask questions later mentality to their job description has anything to do with this? You don't think that a large group of people wrongly or rightly believing that the police are not there to serve and protect them matters? You don't think that it is because of the actions of a small minority of that group, that police and public opinion of said group tends to lean towards the majority of said group falsely being like the majority?  You don't think these things feed each other into a sickening, viscous circular pattern? You don't think any of that matters?

Yeah, it does matter. Because it is a big part of the reason this type of crap continues to happen.

If there was a gif of nicname thwarting the attempted-flag-taker and then gesturing him to suck it, followed by motioning for all of Hilton Shelter to boo him louder, it'd be better than that auburn gif.

Offline Jabeez

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Re: StL County Cops Shoot Teen
« Reply #146 on: August 13, 2014, 06:38:41 PM »
http://deadspin.com/america-is-not-for-black-people-1620169913

NSIAP

But yeah,  people talking about a lot of non-pertinent crap here. 

Offline chum1

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Re: StL County Cops Shoot Teen
« Reply #147 on: August 13, 2014, 07:01:14 PM »
Pertinent to what? Why isn't pertinentence to one's own intetests good enough?

Offline K-S-U-Wildcats!

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Re: StL County Cops Shoot Teen
« Reply #148 on: August 13, 2014, 07:10:48 PM »
The defining element in determining the difference between celebration and rioting is definitely the racial composition of the crowd. What's the difference between the Ku Klux klan burning a cross in a yard and homeless black guys burning trash in a can for warmth? The homeless guys are viewed as criminals, that's what.

:lol:
I've said it before and I'll say it again, K-State fans could have beheaded the entire KU team at midcourt, and K-State fans would be celebrating it this morning.  They are the ISIS of Big 12 fanbases.

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Re: StL County Cops Shoot Teen
« Reply #149 on: August 13, 2014, 07:12:32 PM »
I think most on this board already understand that. McKee included. They're just being dickheads and derailing a discussion. As to your question, I think that this incident, like many things, is a great chance to look at it from a big picture perspective. My posts in this thread, I hope mirror that sentiment. Unfortunately for me, it seems I'm basically the only one who feels that way.

How people look at the Ferguson mobs vs. kids tearing down goalposts or burning couches or drunk drivers is a pretty big picture discussion IMO.

I've heard the story of KSU fans tear down KU's goalposts many times here and elsewhere, but I've never heard anyone refer to them as "animals" or feel the need to claim they wouldn't have participated had they been there, despite the guarantee of destruction of property and disregard for the law.

And I honestly don't think the folks in Ferguson are all acting that different from those K-state fans - they're just in different situations and are mostly black.

So I guess that's why I think it's a worthy discussion.

Great pit bbsn right here. :thumbs:
I've said it before and I'll say it again, K-State fans could have beheaded the entire KU team at midcourt, and K-State fans would be celebrating it this morning.  They are the ISIS of Big 12 fanbases.