StL County Cops Shoot Teen

[MakeItRain]

I'll put this another way. There is no debate that looting and burning that QuickTrip was wrong, the people who did it know it's wrong. Threatening St. Louis cops for what happened is wrong, people doing it know it's wrong. Neither of these things aren't really debated. Tell me why we have a 100+ page thread on this site debating the merits of killing an unarmed 17 year old kid? Why won't a police department, who had an officer reportedly shoot an unarmed 18 year old up to 9 times, not release any information about the shooting at all in the guise of protecting themselves? How did a man shoot and kill two unarmed men in the back who just robbed his neighbors unoccupied home but were literally walking away when he blasted them with a shotgun while telling a 911 operator he was going to kill them, get away with not even spending the night in jail? How could we not find 12 random people to agree that black kids in a car playing loud music isn't dangerous enough to have some guy fire multiple shots into their car killing one of them?

We can get 100% agreement that stealing beer in a hurricane or selling food stamps for a cell phone is wrong but we have to hem and haw about dangerous black men are when they get shot like a buck in the woods.

[p1k3]

Do they still teach kids that cops are your frienda and can be trusted and stuff? Cause man that crap is going down the drain quick

[MakeItRain]

I am so hurt for Michael Brown's parents, but I'm done being outraged over black men being hunted in the streets. We don't value black lives the way we do others, that's fact.

Fact?  Who is "we"?  I think there's a lot of people that are outraged by the murder.

Fact.

We is everyone, the western world as a collective. Black people too, we shoot each other like rough ridin' pop cans on a post because a black life doesn't have equal value.  This has nothing to do with outrage. If I posted a video on YouTube of me shooting a baby raccoon there would be plenty of outrage.

was just about to post something similar to this.  it sounds simplistic, but the problem needs to be addressed between blacks themselves before "white america" will correct itself.

This is nowhere close my point, like way way way off. There isn't a damn thing black people can do to make white people do anything they don't want to do. Black men are like 8% of the population of the western world, we don't set societal rules. I've spent most of my life in Western Kansas, Northern New England, and Central Iowa; most people I come across have most of their interactions with black people with black men like me, that doesn't stop some (most?) of them thinking all black people are thuggish, rapey, gang bangers. Can't tell you how many times I've heard "you're one of the good ones" as if that's a compliment.

Most white girls and women are raped by white men, we don't look at white men as rapey, nor should we.

[gatoveintisiet]

It seems like these tragedies center around guys with guns and their fear of black men in particular,
if we can get rid of these fears it may stop this kind of non-sense.

[nicname]

again, i only know little bits i've read online, but it just seems like if you're pissed at the police, as they should be, that destroying local businesses is one of the stupidest things you could possibly do to express that.

aside from that, read this:

http://theconcourse.deadspin.com/america-is-not-for-black-people-1620169913/+marchman

That's a pretty good opinion piece that's ladled with fact. The most salient point to me are the comments of the militarization of police. I mean, just the words "Law Enforcement" should sound an alarm. I know they do for me more so than ever. The other great point was the comparisons to non-black people openly carrying automatic and semi-automatic weapons.

[star seed 7]

I am so hurt for Michael Brown's parents, but I'm done being outraged over black men being hunted in the streets. We don't value black lives the way we do others, that's fact.

Fact?  Who is "we"?  I think there's a lot of people that are outraged by the murder.

Fact.

We is everyone, the western world as a collective. Black people too, we shoot each other like rough ridin' pop cans on a post because a black life doesn't have equal value.  This has nothing to do with outrage. If I posted a video on YouTube of me shooting a baby raccoon there would be plenty of outrage.

was just about to post something similar to this.  it sounds simplistic, but the problem needs to be addressed between blacks themselves before "white america" will correct itself.

This is nowhere close my point, like way way way off. There isn't a damn thing black people can do to make white people do anything they don't want to do. Black men are like 8% of the population of the western world, we don't set societal rules. I've spent most of my life in Western Kansas, Northern New England, and Central Iowa; most people I come across have most of their interactions with black people with black men like me, that doesn't stop some (most?) of them thinking all black people are thuggish, rapey, gang bangers.

Most white girls and women are raped by white men, we don't look at white men as rapey, nor should we.

i don't think i was very clear.  i was agreeing that society as a whole, including black society does not value a black life, particularly a young black life.  black youths are something like %400 more likely to be the victim of a homicide than other races.  you don't think that if young black kids stopped (or slowed down) on killing each other, that maybe the whole "thuggy gangbanger" stereotype might die down too?  it's obviously more complicated than that, but if islamic fundamentalists would stop stoning people and cutting heads off and crap, the world might not view arabs as savages.

to your second point, maybe not rapey, but men, and white men in particular are judged very quickly as being pedophiles.  males are running away from elementary (and secondary) teaching for fear of being judged as a pedophile.  i imagine in your line of work you've felt some of the same pressure.

[chum1]

If you want the police to change, rioting seems to me like the way to go. It forces the city to get involved.

[nicname]

Good strat here.

Post

i have no idea what's going on, but are they doing this in response to what the cops did?

not directly.

Yes, and this is the way they 'revolt'...

The people looting/burning crap don't give a crap about the kid, they are just using this as an excuse to loot/burn crap.  But hey, "they" all look alike so "they" all are doing it.

I don't think that's true for most. True for some, definitely.

[MakeItRain]

I am so hurt for Michael Brown's parents, but I'm done being outraged over black men being hunted in the streets. We don't value black lives the way we do others, that's fact.

Fact?  Who is "we"?  I think there's a lot of people that are outraged by the murder.

Fact.

We is everyone, the western world as a collective. Black people too, we shoot each other like rough ridin' pop cans on a post because a black life doesn't have equal value.  This has nothing to do with outrage. If I posted a video on YouTube of me shooting a baby raccoon there would be plenty of outrage.

was just about to post something similar to this.  it sounds simplistic, but the problem needs to be addressed between blacks themselves before "white america" will correct itself.

This is nowhere close my point, like way way way off. There isn't a damn thing black people can do to make white people do anything they don't want to do. Black men are like 8% of the population of the western world, we don't set societal rules. I've spent most of my life in Western Kansas, Northern New England, and Central Iowa; most people I come across have most of their interactions with black people with black men like me, that doesn't stop some (most?) of them thinking all black people are thuggish, rapey, gang bangers.

Most white girls and women are raped by white men, we don't look at white men as rapey, nor should we.

i don't think i was very clear.  i was agreeing that society as a whole, including black society does not value a black life, particularly a young black life.  black youths are something like %400 more likely to be the victim of a homicide than other races.  you don't think that if young black kids stopped (or slowed down) on killing each other, that maybe the whole "thuggy gangbanger" stereotype might die down too?  it's obviously more complicated than that, but if islamic fundamentalists would stop stoning people and cutting heads off and crap, the world might not view arabs as savages.

to your second point, maybe not rapey, but men, and white men in particular are judged very quickly as being pedophiles.  males are running away from elementary (and secondary) teaching for fear of being judged as a pedophile.  i imagine in your line of work you've felt some of the same pressure.

Seven, most black men haven't murdered anyone or don't even own guns. Most Muslims aren't terrorists or would even think about committing an act of terror. People color have to commit no crimes to not be thought of criminals?

[MakeItRain]

So the StL Sheriff's Office who are investigating this case have not yet interviewed the guy who was with Michael Brown when he got shot. The shooting happened two and a half days ago. Isn't there a very successful television show based on solving homicides within the first 48 hours? You think this would have happened if a black boy shot a white man and there was an eye witness asking to be interviewed?

[star seed 7]

I am so hurt for Michael Brown's parents, but I'm done being outraged over black men being hunted in the streets. We don't value black lives the way we do others, that's fact.

Fact?  Who is "we"?  I think there's a lot of people that are outraged by the murder.

Fact.

We is everyone, the western world as a collective. Black people too, we shoot each other like rough ridin' pop cans on a post because a black life doesn't have equal value.  This has nothing to do with outrage. If I posted a video on YouTube of me shooting a baby raccoon there would be plenty of outrage.

was just about to post something similar to this.  it sounds simplistic, but the problem needs to be addressed between blacks themselves before "white america" will correct itself.

This is nowhere close my point, like way way way off. There isn't a damn thing black people can do to make white people do anything they don't want to do. Black men are like 8% of the population of the western world, we don't set societal rules. I've spent most of my life in Western Kansas, Northern New England, and Central Iowa; most people I come across have most of their interactions with black people with black men like me, that doesn't stop some (most?) of them thinking all black people are thuggish, rapey, gang bangers.

Most white girls and women are raped by white men, we don't look at white men as rapey, nor should we.

i don't think i was very clear.  i was agreeing that society as a whole, including black society does not value a black life, particularly a young black life.  black youths are something like %400 more likely to be the victim of a homicide than other races.  you don't think that if young black kids stopped (or slowed down) on killing each other, that maybe the whole "thuggy gangbanger" stereotype might die down too?  it's obviously more complicated than that, but if islamic fundamentalists would stop stoning people and cutting heads off and crap, the world might not view arabs as savages.

to your second point, maybe not rapey, but men, and white men in particular are judged very quickly as being pedophiles.  males are running away from elementary (and secondary) teaching for fear of being judged as a pedophile.  i imagine in your line of work you've felt some of the same pressure.

Seven, most black men haven't murdered anyone or don't even own guns. Most Muslims aren't terrorists or would even think about committing an act of terror. People color have to commit no crimes to not be thought of criminals?

most male teachers have never molested a kid.  i'm not sure what your point is here.  i think you're confusing my personal opinion of people of color when we were both talking about society as a whole?  you said it yourself, black people shoot at each other like popcans on a post.  weird that you didn't feel the need to qualify your own statement with (but not most black people), but my statements need talking down to.  the thug stereotype exists for a reason, however unfair you may feel that is.  throwing your hands up and saying "well we don't make the rules!" is a cop out.  obviously this problem (the value of black life in america) is not solely on the shoulders of black people, but i don't know how you can get white america to care (qualifier just for mir, lots of white people do care) until black america starts to first (qualifier just for mir, lots of black people do care).

[kim carnes]

So the StL Sheriff's Office who are investigating this case have not yet interviewed the guy who was with Michael Brown when he got shot. The shooting happened two and a half days ago. Isn't there a very successful television show based on solving homicides within the first 48 hours? You think this would have happened if a black boy shot a white man and there was an eye witness asking to be interviewed?

probably, if the black boy was a cop and the white man was some guy that wasn't popular/successful/wealthy and fought the black police officer (i don't really know the whole story and whether or not this kid actually fought with the cop)

[EMAWmeister]

I initially wanted to wait for an investigation before making up my mind here, but I no longer trust that city to conduct a legitimate investigation. They couldn't be handling this more poorly.

[nicname]

I am so hurt for Michael Brown's parents, but I'm done being outraged over black men being hunted in the streets. We don't value black lives the way we do others, that's fact.

Fact?  Who is "we"?  I think there's a lot of people that are outraged by the murder.

Fact.

We is everyone, the western world as a collective. Black people too, we shoot each other like rough ridin' pop cans on a post because a black life doesn't have equal value.  This has nothing to do with outrage. If I posted a video on YouTube of me shooting a baby raccoon there would be plenty of outrage.

was just about to post something similar to this.  it sounds simplistic, but the problem needs to be addressed between blacks themselves before "white america" will correct itself.

This is nowhere close my point, like way way way off. There isn't a damn thing black people can do to make white people do anything they don't want to do. Black men are like 8% of the population of the western world, we don't set societal rules. I've spent most of my life in Western Kansas, Northern New England, and Central Iowa; most people I come across have most of their interactions with black people with black men like me, that doesn't stop some (most?) of them thinking all black people are thuggish, rapey, gang bangers. Can't tell you how many times I've heard "you're one of the good ones" as if that's a compliment.

Most white girls and women are raped by white men, we don't look at white men as rapey, nor should we.

MIR makes a great point here about the type of black people that a majority of non-blacks encounter on a daily basis. As far as the "you're one of the good ones," as bad it may seem there is truth to that, but it's misguided. The truth is, that a majority of people are just like us (by us I don't mean white people, i mean people. Like, your average poster on this board. We work, go to school, drink beer, watch sports and try not to cause too many problems.

If we're going to put people into groups, as an incident like this kind of forces us (again, people) to do, then we have to realize the truth of the matter. Where "one of the good ones" is misguided, is that in truth most people, black, white, hispanic, or otherwise are the good ones. Are there differences between working-class folks, and professionals, or whatever sure, but for the most part we're all pretty similar. The problem is that media, popular culture, etc. make it very easy for those who don't want to look critically to assume that hoodrat, for lack of a better term is the norm. That sucks.

I think the point seven is making -- and correct me if I'm misspeaking --is that for other people to better understand that, black people need to take it upon themselves to be the torch-bearers in such an endeavor. The behaviors that, wrongly, give the whole of black people a bad name to the ignorant should be ostracized, as should the behaviors of anyone of any race or culture that goes against what "the good ones" of people in general do.

It shouldn't have to be that way. It really shouldn't, but I can't do it. Non-blacks can't do it. If they do then they're racist. Really, no one should have to do it.

Finally, MIR, by saying "one of the good ones" or that we're all pretty much the same, I'm not saying that I have lived with many if any of the situations you've experienced by being a black man.

[nicname]

Also, that last post has nothing to do what this cop did, which from what I gather, no matter what the kid did or did not do to provoke him, was pure murder.

Edit to add: That it really is sickening to witness the "shoot first, ask questions later" mentality of militarized police forces, especially in predominantly underprivileged, mostly minority areas in many cities' urban core.

[nicname]

Go Reds!

hard to tell if red or orange.  maybe go chicago.

Was going to make a Wine-Wednesday joke, but it's not Wednesday.

I was going to post this like 20 minutes ago, but forgot.

[star seed 7]

Also, that last post has nothing to do what this cop did, which from what I gather, no matter what the kid did or did not do to provoke him, was pure murder.

yeah.  the discussion really could go in a separate (but equal) thread.

just a little levity 

[gatoveintisiet]

I am so hurt for Michael Brown's parents, but I'm done being outraged over black men being hunted in the streets. We don't value black lives the way we do others, that's fact.

Fact?  Who is "we"?  I think there's a lot of people that are outraged by the murder.

Fact.

We is everyone, the western world as a collective. Black people too, we shoot each other like rough ridin' pop cans on a post because a black life doesn't have equal value.  This has nothing to do with outrage. If I posted a video on YouTube of me shooting a baby raccoon there would be plenty of outrage.

was just about to post something similar to this.  it sounds simplistic, but the problem needs to be addressed between blacks themselves before "white america" will correct itself.

This is nowhere close my point, like way way way off. There isn't a damn thing black people can do to make white people do anything they don't want to do. Black men are like 8% of the population of the western world, we don't set societal rules. I've spent most of my life in Western Kansas, Northern New England, and Central Iowa; most people I come across have most of their interactions with black people with black men like me, that doesn't stop some (most?) of them thinking all black people are thuggish, rapey, gang bangers. Can't tell you how many times I've heard "you're one of the good ones" as if that's a compliment.

Most white girls and women are raped by white men, we don't look at white men as rapey, nor should we.

MIR makes a great point here about the type of black people that a majority of non-blacks encounter on a daily basis. As far as the "you're one of the good ones," as bad it may seem there is truth to that, but it's misguided. The truth is, that a majority of people are just like us (by us I don't mean white people, i mean people. Like, your average poster on this board. We work, go to school, drink beer, watch sports and try not to cause too many problems.

If we're going to put people into groups, as an incident like this kind of forces us (again, people) to do, then we have to realize the truth of the matter. Where "one of the good ones" is misguided, is that in truth most people, black, white, hispanic, or otherwise are the good ones. Are there differences between working-class folks, and professionals, or whatever sure, but for the most part we're all pretty similar. The problem is that media, popular culture, etc. make it very easy for those who don't want to look critically to assume that hoodrat, for lack of a better term is the norm. That sucks.

I think the point seven is making -- and correct me if I'm misspeaking --is that for other people to better understand that, black people need to take it upon themselves to be the torch-bearers in such an endeavor. The behaviors that, wrongly, give the whole of black people a bad name to the ignorant should be ostracized, as should the behaviors of anyone of any race or culture that goes against what "the good ones" of people in general do.

It shouldn't have to be that way. It really shouldn't, but I can't do it. Non-blacks can't do it. If they do then they're racist. Really, no one should have to do it.

Finally, MIR, by saying "one of the good ones" or that we're all pretty much the same, I'm not saying that I have lived with many if any of the situations you've experienced by being a black man.

Take race away from the disscussion, are there groups, organiztions, countries etc. that are
overwhelmingly popular and well thought of in this world that self police in an effort to preserve
there reputation?

[nicname]

BTW, this is the first time I've really taken the time to watch the media's take on all of this. A 45 second story on the local news here and there, no Major network news broadcast, which is a shame. But tonight I've spent at least an hour watching between MSNBC and FOXnews. <-- woof, to both.

[michigancat]

A former (or maybe current) cop who is a facebook friend posted this (the words are his, only the image was shared):

And local reports say not a single pair of work boots were looted, just flat screens and chrome rims...

[K-S-U-Wildcats!]

Comparing this shooting to that of Treyvon Martin is an emotional reaction that doesn't seem to be based in fact and is somewhat ironic considering the weight of the evidence in the TM case pointed to a justifiable shooting, whereas the initial facts here do not.

And, while I'll repeat that the initial facts do not support this shooting, can we please drop the "blacks are being hunted in the streets" bullshit? This started with the guy attacking the cop. That alone doesn't justify the shooting but let's not pretend that he didn't put himself in a bad situation (hey, on that point, it is a good comparison to TM). Pro tip - black or white, don't pick fights, especially with cops.

Finally, as others have noted , it's not fair to equate the looters with the ones seeking justice. The looters are opportunistic animals who probably don't give a crap about this shooting.

[star seed 7]

A former (or maybe current) cop who is a facebook friend posted this (the words are his, only the image was shared):

And local reports say not a single pair of work boots were looted, just flat screens and chrome rims...

That doesn't sound like a very believable story

[michigancat]

Comparing this shooting to that of Treyvon Martin is an emotional reaction that doesn't seem to be based in fact and is somewhat ironic considering the weight of the evidence in the TM case pointed to a justifiable shooting, whereas the initial facts here do not.

And, while I'll repeat that the initial facts do not support this shooting, can we please drop the "blacks are being hunted in the streets" bullshit? This started with the guy attacking the cop. That alone doesn't justify the shooting but let's not pretend that he didn't put himself in a bad situation (hey, on that point, it is a good comparison to TM). Pro tip - black or white, don't pick fights, especially with cops.

Finally, as others have noted , it's not fair to equate the looters with the ones seeking justice. The looters are opportunistic animals who probably don't give a crap about this shooting.

Do you ever call white people who do foolish things "animals"?

[kim carnes]

Comparing this shooting to that of Treyvon Martin is an emotional reaction that doesn't seem to be based in fact and is somewhat ironic considering the weight of the evidence in the TM case pointed to a justifiable shooting, whereas the initial facts here do not.

And, while I'll repeat that the initial facts do not support this shooting, can we please drop the "blacks are being hunted in the streets" bullshit? This started with the guy attacking the cop. That alone doesn't justify the shooting but let's not pretend that he didn't put himself in a bad situation (hey, on that point, it is a good comparison to TM). Pro tip - black or white, don't pick fights, especially with cops.

Finally, as others have noted , it's not fair to equate the looters with the ones seeking justice. The looters are opportunistic animals who probably don't give a crap about this shooting.

Do you ever call white people who do foolish things "animals"?

quit trolling the pit, bayareacat

[K-S-U-Wildcats!]

Comparing this shooting to that of Treyvon Martin is an emotional reaction that doesn't seem to be based in fact and is somewhat ironic considering the weight of the evidence in the TM case pointed to a justifiable shooting, whereas the initial facts here do not.

And, while I'll repeat that the initial facts do not support this shooting, can we please drop the "blacks are being hunted in the streets" bullshit? This started with the guy attacking the cop. That alone doesn't justify the shooting but let's not pretend that he didn't put himself in a bad situation (hey, on that point, it is a good comparison to TM). Pro tip - black or white, don't pick fights, especially with cops.

Finally, as others have noted , it's not fair to equate the looters with the ones seeking justice. The looters are opportunistic animals who probably don't give a crap about this shooting.

Do you ever call white people who do foolish things "animals"?

Did you just make the assumption that all the looters here were black or otherwise non-white? I have no idea what the racial composition was, and I use the term animal without respect to race. The label fits the conduct. Stop tossing around accusations of racism.