Author Topic: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!  (Read 48832 times)

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Offline Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!)

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #450 on: December 08, 2017, 03:25:03 PM »

Will the gay marriage wedding cake take down the goE libtard contingency????
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Offline catastrophe

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #451 on: December 08, 2017, 03:26:21 PM »
There's a killer comeback dangling out there for you, but I'm not going to help you out, since you've been so rude to me...

Hey buddy, I've been nothing but a gentleman; just asking you to think through the issues a bit deeper.  SCOTUS is not going to approach this as the narrow legal question you framed, and that is why they ask hypotheticals during oral argument just like I am now.  And (future) pro tip: I can assure you the justices would be none too pleased if the attorney on the other side said "that's not the facts here, so why would you ask me that"?

Offline Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!)

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #452 on: December 08, 2017, 03:27:57 PM »
I'm extremely interested in this evidentiary hearing that Catostrophe thinks the SCOTUS is putting on. Maybe MichiCat could put on his revised version of the story too!
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Offline Spracne

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #453 on: December 08, 2017, 03:40:55 PM »
There's a killer comeback dangling out there for you, but I'm not going to help you out, since you've been so rude to me...

Hey buddy, I've been nothing but a gentleman; just asking you to think through the issues a bit deeper.  SCOTUS is not going to approach this as the narrow legal question you framed, and that is why they ask hypotheticals during oral argument just like I am now.  And (future) pro tip: I can assure you the justices would be none too pleased if the attorney on the other side said "that's not the facts here, so why would you ask me that"?

Oral arguments can be interesting, but they rarely have any bearing on the eventual outcome. Nor do they give any insight into the eventual rule of law the Court lays down. That's all done after multiple drafts are circulated and the vote is taken. And I really do think that is how SCOTUS will approach the legal question. It will be narrow. I'm not an advocate for one of the parties, and you, sir, are not an Associate Justice of the Honorable Court. So, it's really best that we stick to the facts, rather than wrestle with extreme hypos. The justices ask those questions to get some ideas for crafting rules that can be reliably applied by the lower courts. It has nothing to do with anything other than that.

Offline Woogy

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #454 on: December 08, 2017, 03:42:02 PM »
http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2017/12/andrew-sullivan-let-him-have-his-cake.html

The last 3 paragraphs are good, but the close:

Quote
In other words, if the liberals were more liberal, and the Christians more Christian, this case would never have existed. It tells you a great deal about the decadence of our culture that it does.

Offline Spracne

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #455 on: December 08, 2017, 03:44:07 PM »
In any event, it's an interesting and a close case, and it should be the blockbuster First Amendment case of 2018. P excited.

Offline catastrophe

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #456 on: December 08, 2017, 03:55:38 PM »
There's a killer comeback dangling out there for you, but I'm not going to help you out, since you've been so rude to me...

Hey buddy, I've been nothing but a gentleman; just asking you to think through the issues a bit deeper.  SCOTUS is not going to approach this as the narrow legal question you framed, and that is why they ask hypotheticals during oral argument just like I am now.  And (future) pro tip: I can assure you the justices would be none too pleased if the attorney on the other side said "that's not the facts here, so why would you ask me that"?

Blah blah blah. The justices ask those questions to get some ideas for crafting rules that can be reliably applied by the lower courts. Blah blah.

Glad we agree!

Offline Mrs. Gooch

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #457 on: December 08, 2017, 04:00:23 PM »
Also, there is no Constitutional principle that requires individuals to be consistent with the application of their beliefs. The Constitution only targets arbitrary actions of governments. If this is indeed an expression of a deeply held religious belief, the government cannot require him to be perfectly consistent in how he expresses those beliefs. And for good reason. Remember, this is a case above a state law versus Constitutional law.

I think you are (purposely?) missing the point.  Surely you would agree with me that the justices would not determine the baker had a "sincerely held belief" if he baked a cake for a gay wedding the week before.  I mean, obviously they're not requiring him to be consistent with the commands of Jesus or else he'd be DOA in his stance.

It is not much of a leap to suggest the same reasoning would apply to his willingness to support other gay-wedding related celebrations when inquiring as to whether he sincerely holds the belief he espouses on gay marriage.

Is there any allegation that he had baked a cake for a gay wedding the week before? No? So how is that relevant to this case?

Is it much of a leap? That's arguable. I do think it's reasonable to consider that a religious person may take umbrage with the gay marriage ceremony--which is an actual religious ritual in many Christian faiths that don't endorse homosexuality--while being OK with providing baked goods for other peripheral celebrations that do not involve a religious sacrament.

So, presumably the cake would be served at the reception which is a "peripheral celebration" to the wedding. I haven't been to any weddings where they served cake during the actual ceremony.

Offline catastrophe

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #458 on: December 08, 2017, 04:02:02 PM »
Don't PRESUMABLY anything with Spracne.  He deals only in FACTS, Mrs. Gooch.

Offline Mrs. Gooch

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #459 on: December 08, 2017, 04:03:57 PM »
Don't PRESUMABLY anything with Spracne.  He deals only in FACTS, Mrs. Gooch.

OK, maybe during gay weddings they do eat cake. I haven't actually attended one.

Offline catastrophe

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #460 on: December 08, 2017, 04:04:47 PM »
I think all that matters is that the baker sincerely thought they were going to get married and have gay sex on top of the cake.

Offline catastrophe

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #461 on: December 08, 2017, 04:06:50 PM »
http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2017/12/andrew-sullivan-let-him-have-his-cake.html

The last 3 paragraphs are good, but the close:

Quote
In other words, if the liberals were more liberal, and the Christians more Christian, this case would never have existed. It tells you a great deal about the decadence of our culture that it does.

IRL Catastrophe completely agrees with those last 3 paragraphs.  Maybe not the rest of the article, but yea this dispute is disappointing for a lot of reasons.

Offline CHONGS

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #462 on: December 08, 2017, 04:28:02 PM »
A lot of libs might have their hearts in the right places, but unfortunately have a fundamental misunderstanding of the legal issue at play here.  You should listen to what Spracne is saying.

Offline catastrophe

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #463 on: December 08, 2017, 04:45:06 PM »
He's right, everyone.  This is just a case about whether a Colorado statute is constitutional.

Marbury v. Madison was just a case about legality of judicial appointments.

Brown v. Board of Education was just a case about school segregation.

Roe v. Wade was just a case about whether some chick could get an abortion.

Offline chum1

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #464 on: December 08, 2017, 04:56:34 PM »
It wasn't like Hattori Hanzo made just a regular old sword specifically for the purpose of killing Bill. He said that he was going to make the best sword he ever made. There is absolutely no ambiguity that he wanted Beatrix Kiddo to kill Bill with that particular sword he made.

Offline Institutional Control

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #465 on: December 08, 2017, 05:20:21 PM »
I can’t believe this thread is still going on. Has anyone had their mind changed yet?


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Offline catastrophe

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #466 on: December 08, 2017, 05:36:57 PM »
I can’t believe this thread is still going on. Has anyone had their mind changed yet?


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Offline Spracne

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #467 on: December 08, 2017, 05:37:22 PM »
He's right, everyone.  This is just a case about whether a Colorado statute is constitutional.

Marbury v. Madison was just a case about legality of judicial appointments.

Brown v. Board of Education was just a case about school segregation.

Roe v. Wade was just a case about whether some chick could get an abortion.
Every case sets a precedent, that's true. But this one will be drawn as narrowly as possible. Do you really think this case will be as ground-breaking as those? No. That's not this Court. Nor is this that moment. And Marbury was a total ninja coup from the nascent days of the Republic.

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Offline michigancat

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #468 on: December 08, 2017, 05:41:09 PM »
I can’t believe this thread is still going on. Has anyone had their mind changed yet?


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Offline renocat

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #470 on: May 26, 2018, 06:20:30 AM »
Nor to Christian homeowners.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/rohrabacher-says-it%e2%80%99s-ok-to-not-sell-homes-to-gay-people/ar-AAxMWwW
The Federal Fair Housing Act does not list sexual orientation as a protected class. Rorebacher expressed he is not in support of a proposed bill in Congress that is trying to expand the Act's protected Class.  The Congressman believes Christians should not be forced to sell their homes to gays.  My neanderthal sayz yes, but it's fruitless do be so.  Things like this backfire on people like Roarbacker.   Money I guess should be the only factor.  However I will not ever sell my home to tattooed dudes or dudettes.

Offline Mrs. Gooch

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #471 on: May 26, 2018, 09:41:47 AM »
 The times when I have bought and sold houses, the sexual orientation of the other party was not disclosed to me.

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #472 on: May 26, 2018, 10:25:39 AM »
Try to imagine hating gay people so much that you won't sell your house to one.
Hyperbolic partisan duplicitous hypocrite

Offline Dugout DickStone

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #473 on: May 26, 2018, 12:00:32 PM »
Try to imagine hating gay people so much that you won't sell your house to one.

Then imagine saying it’s because of Jesus/Bible

Offline catastrophe

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #474 on: May 26, 2018, 02:10:47 PM »
That’s just nuts.