Author Topic: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look  (Read 138344 times)

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Offline CHONGS

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #925 on: June 26, 2018, 09:54:50 AM »
I did a bit, admittedly it was hard for me to follow.  I saw a lot of people saying she was silly.
I don't think she's technically wrong.  Human sacrifice was a understood part of life in mesoamerica.  It wasn't just the triple alliance doing it.

have you read the entire thread?

Offline michigancat

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #926 on: June 26, 2018, 09:55:36 AM »
what was lol about it?

Offline DQ12

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #927 on: June 26, 2018, 10:00:16 AM »
what was lol about it?
romanticizing mass murder is beyond the pale


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Offline michigancat

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #928 on: June 26, 2018, 10:01:07 AM »
what was lol about it?

I guess how hard it triggered the alt right is pretty funny

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #929 on: June 26, 2018, 10:06:11 AM »
i honestly thought it was a parody account when i first saw the thread.


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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #930 on: June 26, 2018, 10:09:21 AM »
I think you could make the same argument that in the cultural context of the time, many felt the Spanish Inquisition was justified and was truly helping people get to heaven. Colonialism and exploitation of natives probably made perfect sense to the Spanish coming to the Americas, even if now in today's context it's obvious they were pretty brutal and cruel. :dunno:

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:adios:

Offline michigancat

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #932 on: June 26, 2018, 10:11:20 AM »
and yeah the "How I see the world, filtered through centuries of colonial oppression and destruction, is irrelevant to understanding how they saw the world" is pretty funny.

Offline CHONGS

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #933 on: June 26, 2018, 10:20:04 AM »
I guess I still don't get it.  I admit to not reading everything she said super carefully, but she didn't seem to say anything super controversial to me (within the context archaeology).

Offline sys

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #934 on: June 26, 2018, 10:22:26 AM »
I think you could make the same argument that in the cultural context of the time, many felt the Spanish Inquisition was justified and was truly helping people get to heaven. Colonialism and exploitation of natives probably made perfect sense to the Spanish coming to the Americas, even if now in today's context it's obvious they were pretty brutal and cruel. :dunno:

just change colonialism and exploitation of natives to human sacrifice and spanish coming to to mesoamericans living in and that's pretty much what is lol about it.
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #935 on: June 26, 2018, 10:24:58 AM »
But I guess the idea is that she's being too PC by not stressing how evil the Mexica were.

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #936 on: June 26, 2018, 10:29:24 AM »
This piqued my interest because I have been doing a lot of reading about pre-Cortesian Mexico.

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #937 on: June 26, 2018, 10:36:08 AM »
I guess I still don't get it.  I admit to not reading everything she said super carefully, but she didn't seem to say anything super controversial to me (within the context archaeology).

her individual points are interesting, and obviously as an archeologist you are interested in understanding, not judging - but when you introduce your twitter lesson with this:

Quote
it's time for a discussion on why this practice was not "horrific" or "loaded [with] evil," as some of you have said
and conclude it with this:
Quote
don't for a second think that's the only way to see it, or the "right" way to see it.
then you are setting up your observations not as arguing that we should understand how those peoples saw themselves and the moral and ethical framework under which they operated, but instead as we should suspend our own moral and ethical framework when considering the actions of other peoples or cultures, which is stupid and funny.
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #938 on: June 26, 2018, 10:37:21 AM »
But I guess the idea is that she's being too PC by not stressing how evil the Mexica were.
Clearly. "Is it politically incorrect to agree that all killing is wrong???"

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #939 on: June 26, 2018, 10:44:45 AM »
I think you could make the same argument that in the cultural context of the time, many felt the Spanish Inquisition was justified and was truly helping people get to heaven. Colonialism and exploitation of natives probably made perfect sense to the Spanish coming to the Americas, even if now in today's context it's obvious they were pretty brutal and cruel. :dunno:
Of course you could make that same argument, but with the benefit of history and progress, we have the luxury of looking back and acknowledging that things like human sacrifice and the spanish inquisition (regardless of the underlying rationales) were "weird and violent and gruesome" -- which are labels she specifically disputes as being "right."  Smart people rightfully label slavery as evil and horrific despite whatever moral/theological defenses southern intellectuals were putting forth during antebellum.

I think a lot of people understand that there is some implicit theological underpinning to "human sacrifice," but that shouldn't absolve the practice from being labeled "horrific." 


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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #940 on: June 26, 2018, 10:54:36 AM »
Quote
it's time for a discussion on why this practice was not "horrific" or "loaded [with] evil," as some of you have said
and conclude it with this:
Quote
don't for a second think that's the only way to see it, or the "right" way to see it.
then you are setting up your observations not as arguing that we should understand how those peoples saw themselves and the moral and ethical framework under which they operated, but instead as we should suspend our own moral and ethical framework when considering the actions of other peoples or cultures, which is stupid and funny.
Can you elaborate on what you mean by "we should suspend our own moral and ethical framework when considering the actions of other peoples or cultures"?

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #941 on: June 26, 2018, 11:06:10 AM »
like, it's fine for americans to worship at the altar of jefferson and it's fine for mexicans to name every other street after cuauhtemoc, but it's stupid to say slavery or human sacrifice was fine because it was justified according to the moral and ethical frameworks of the societies that those individuals lived in.

according to our own morals and ethics, neither slavery nor human sacrifice is acceptable.  we don't need to suspend that judgement in order to understand that it has not universally been so.
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #942 on: June 26, 2018, 11:14:04 AM »
OK.  I don't read her as saying its "fine" (as in let's go honor Xipe Totec tonight, it's cool), but I will concede that one could read it that way.


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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #943 on: June 26, 2018, 11:30:30 AM »
I'll admit I am probably more a moral relativist than most.

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #944 on: June 26, 2018, 11:53:03 AM »
absolutism, in all things, chingon.
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #945 on: June 26, 2018, 12:01:55 PM »
Most people when discussing morals do so from a universal / absolutist perspective.  You can tweak your principles so that they look different when applied among different populations, but the general idea is that they apply to all people at all times.

In my own mind, I contrast that with ethics, which is more situational in application.

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #946 on: June 26, 2018, 12:27:21 PM »
I saw someone arguing that Cortes was good because he sniffed out such an evil people. True genius logic.


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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #947 on: June 26, 2018, 01:21:02 PM »
AMAZE ridic

https://chicago.cbslocal.com/2018/06/25/laura-ingalls-wilders-award/

Really? Nobody is going to chime in on this nonsense affecting our Kansas darling???

This is a fine example of the one-way street in which so-called morals are applied retrospectively.

How about we substitute guatamalens with settlors and americans with indians?

White religellies escaping persecution = violence and atrocities against indians. AMAZE
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Offline bubbles4ksu

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #948 on: June 26, 2018, 01:37:29 PM »
I saw someone arguing that Cortes was good because he sniffed out such an evil people. True genius logic.


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the scale of human sacrifice and ritual cannibalism in the americas isn't given its due in social studies classrooms. most people don't even know that aztecs were routinely eating their neighbors a mere 500 years ago. really remarkable stuff.

Offline michigancat

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #949 on: June 26, 2018, 01:58:34 PM »
I think you could make the same argument that in the cultural context of the time, many felt the Spanish Inquisition was justified and was truly helping people get to heaven. Colonialism and exploitation of natives probably made perfect sense to the Spanish coming to the Americas, even if now in today's context it's obvious they were pretty brutal and cruel. :dunno:
Of course you could make that same argument, but with the benefit of history and progress, we have the luxury of looking back and acknowledging that things like human sacrifice and the spanish inquisition (regardless of the underlying rationales) were "weird and violent and gruesome" -- which are labels she specifically disputes as being "right."  Smart people rightfully label slavery as evil and horrific despite whatever moral/theological defenses southern intellectuals were putting forth during antebellum.

I think a lot of people understand that there is some implicit theological underpinning to "human sacrifice," but that shouldn't absolve the practice from being labeled "horrific." 


Yeah I still think context matters. IMO "violent and gruesome" are fair but I don't think "evil and weird and horrible" are when you attempt to look at it through the eyes of an Aztec in the 15th century, because it was the standard in the society they knew.

As for the Antebellum South, they had plenty of people all over the world telling them they were "evil" and they were explicitly trying to justify their actions. As far as I know, the Aztecs had no idea what they were doing was "evil" or "weird" which makes it difficult to apply those labels to them in context.


A sorta similar conversation could be had surrounding our culture's revulsion to eating dogs while we eat bacon like crazy without remorse. How can one be "weird" or "evil" and the other not be without considering the context of our present-day culture?