Author Topic: The Trump Presidency  (Read 1027697 times)

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Offline SkinnyBenny

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Offline sonofdaxjones

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #6851 on: June 20, 2018, 06:58:24 AM »
Trying to figure out which part of the constiution is being infringed upon.

Offline Yard Dog

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #6852 on: June 20, 2018, 09:17:57 AM »
Trying to figure out which part of the constiution is being infringed upon.

I would say the separation of powers. The executive branch has waaaaayyyyyy too much authority. That didn't start with Trump, but it is blatant in every criticism of him. I realize that congress needs to be at least a little adversarial so only the important laws get passed, but its current complete disfunction makes it more and more ok to the public for executive overreach. The more we prefer that Trump just steps in and "fixes it" the easier it will be in the future to completely ignore congress and rely on one man to make all of the right choices. The checks and balance system in our government is broken.

Offline Phil Titola

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #6853 on: June 20, 2018, 09:25:14 AM »
Trying to figure out which part of the constiution is being infringed upon.
The bribery of the president part.

Offline I_have_purplewood

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #6854 on: June 20, 2018, 10:19:09 AM »
Trying to figure out which part of the constiution is being infringed upon.

I would say the separation of powers. The executive branch has waaaaayyyyyy too much authority. That didn't start with Trump, but it is blatant in every criticism of him. I realize that congress needs to be at least a little adversarial so only the important laws get passed, but its current complete disfunction makes it more and more ok to the public for executive overreach. The more we prefer that Trump just steps in and "fixes it" the easier it will be in the future to completely ignore congress and rely on one man to make all of the right choices. The checks and balance system in our government is broken.

I think you are spot on YD.  "But Democrats put the onus on the president to take action himself Tuesday. An animated Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer said, "The president alone can fix it with a flick of a pen by signing a presidential order to end the agonizing screams of small children who have been separated from their parents." He shrugged off concerns about the GOP potentially attacking Democrats for not supporting legislation to stop the policy."
This time it is a Republican in power, someday a Democrat. But beware of the words, "The president ALONE can fix it with a flick of the pen." Obama bragged about having a pen, too. The pen here, is a double edged sword.
All of us, be very wary. For one day what the president alone can do with a flick of the pen is going to make each one of us unhappy.
Fifteen minutes later, when the Kansas locker room opened its doors to the media, the Jayhawks were still crying. Literally, bawling. All of them. I've never seen anything like it, and I've seen devastated college locker rooms -- after losses in the Final Four, the national championship game -- ever

Offline Yard Dog

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #6855 on: June 20, 2018, 10:23:27 AM »
Trying to figure out which part of the constiution is being infringed upon.

I would say the separation of powers. The executive branch has waaaaayyyyyy too much authority. That didn't start with Trump, but it is blatant in every criticism of him. I realize that congress needs to be at least a little adversarial so only the important laws get passed, but its current complete disfunction makes it more and more ok to the public for executive overreach. The more we prefer that Trump just steps in and "fixes it" the easier it will be in the future to completely ignore congress and rely on one man to make all of the right choices. The checks and balance system in our government is broken.

I think you are spot on YD.  "But Democrats put the onus on the president to take action himself Tuesday. An animated Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer said, "The president alone can fix it with a flick of a pen by signing a presidential order to end the agonizing screams of small children who have been separated from their parents." He shrugged off concerns about the GOP potentially attacking Democrats for not supporting legislation to stop the policy."
This time it is a Republican in power, someday a Democrat. But beware of the words, "The president ALONE can fix it with a flick of the pen." Obama bragged about having a pen, too. The pen here, is a double edged sword.
All of us, be very wary. For one day what the president alone can do with a flick of the pen is going to make each one of us unhappy.

I am skeptical in these situations that Trump is actively trying to balance the system back to a proper separation of powers. It is more likely he wants any unpopular decisions to ride on congress and not his shoulders. But intentionally or not I support him kicking all of these important issues to congress.

Offline sys

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #6856 on: June 20, 2018, 10:28:26 AM »
there is plenty of room to blame both the legislative and executive branches for allowing and using (respectively) our government to torture children.  both have the constitutional authority to remedy the situation without any need for cooperation from the other branch.
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Offline sonofdaxjones

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #6857 on: June 20, 2018, 10:33:00 AM »
Trying to figure out which part of the constiution is being infringed upon.

I would say the separation of powers. The executive branch has waaaaayyyyyy too much authority. That didn't start with Trump, but it is blatant in every criticism of him. I realize that congress needs to be at least a little adversarial so only the important laws get passed, but its current complete disfunction makes it more and more ok to the public for executive overreach. The more we prefer that Trump just steps in and "fixes it" the easier it will be in the future to completely ignore congress and rely on one man to make all of the right choices. The checks and balance system in our government is broken.

It didn't start with Trump?  Ya Think? 

We're currently dealing with a meaningless nuclear non-treaty that the previous guy paid $5.2 Billion to a terrorist state to obtain without any consent from Congress.   That's just one example.




Offline Yard Dog

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #6858 on: June 20, 2018, 10:37:33 AM »
there is plenty of room to blame both the legislative and executive branches for allowing and using (respectively) our government to torture children.  both have the constitutional authority to remedy the situation without any need for cooperation from the other branch.

I understand how torture can be used in this context, but I roll my eyes heavily when considering people who are truly tortured around the globe and through history. I tend to take those comments as hyperbole.

I will agree they both have the authority, but as has been proven with Trump's rollback of a lot of Obama era programs, the executive branches decisions lose permanence with the change in power. This makes it very difficult for any private or public organizations trying to assist immigrants and the immigration process to make long term plans or understand the steps to take to keep these situations from being so haphazardly handled. A legislative change would most definitely have a time frame for application allowing for proper organization and planning. This may also encourage those seeking to immigrate the patience to wait their turn knowing that an understandable process is in place.

By leaning on the executive branch in this way you run the risk of endorsing chaos with a change in power.

Trying to figure out which part of the constiution is being infringed upon.

I would say the separation of powers. The executive branch has waaaaayyyyyy too much authority. That didn't start with Trump, but it is blatant in every criticism of him. I realize that congress needs to be at least a little adversarial so only the important laws get passed, but its current complete disfunction makes it more and more ok to the public for executive overreach. The more we prefer that Trump just steps in and "fixes it" the easier it will be in the future to completely ignore congress and rely on one man to make all of the right choices. The checks and balance system in our government is broken.

It didn't start with Trump?  Ya Think? 

We're currently dealing with a meaningless nuclear non-treaty that the previous guy paid $5.2 Billion to a terrorist state to obtain without any consent from Congress.   That's just one example.


It didn't start with Obama either, but the obstinate actions of congress towards the end of his tenure led him to make irrational choices (IMHO) setting precedent for overreaching executive action. There were better ways for the republican controlled congress to handle Obama that they refused to do. A LOT of people are to blame, but this is the most proven case of "slippery slope policies" that I have seen in my time following American politics.


Online LickNeckey

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #6859 on: June 20, 2018, 11:56:10 AM »
slippery slope?

FDR signed 3,700 executive orders
Coolidge, Wilson, and TR sigend over 1,000
Reagan signed over 100 more eo's than Obama

Offline sys

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #6860 on: June 20, 2018, 12:12:18 PM »
the executive branches decisions lose permanence with the change in power.

the lack of permanence is part of the appeal.  take either the feinstein bill and the cruz not a bill but maybe someday will be a bill as examples.  it will be hard to get many republicans to agree to vote for a bill that makes permanent law stating that family detention should only be used for asylum seekers as a last resort (very rough paraphrase) and it will be impossible for democrats to agree that asylum seekers should be mandatorily housed in family detention for two weeks and then deported if their asylum claim is not completed in two weeks.

in general, i'm very sympathetic to the idea that the legislature should be much more aggressive in asserting their prerogatives.  but in this case, it really should be an executive decision - not only because any legislation beyond a one sentence outlawing of family separation is likely to be difficult to resolve, but to allow flexibility in how asylum seekers and other immigrants are handled as numbers and types of immigrants changes and to allow for changes and improvements in how they are processed.  the only reason the legislature should act on this issue is because the executive is behaving in a matter that is utterly inhumane.
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Offline sys

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"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

Offline Yard Dog

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #6863 on: June 21, 2018, 12:21:42 PM »
the only reason the legislature should act on this issue is because the executive is behaving in a matter that is utterly inhumane.

That is my concern. For this leader and any leader that follows. The action of the executive branch to basically make law is scary not knowing who might control the reins.

slippery slope?

FDR signed 3,700 executive orders
Coolidge, Wilson, and TR sigend over 1,000
Reagan signed over 100 more eo's than Obama

I don't have extensive research on this, but it isn't the number of executive orders that matters. It is the content of the orders. Executive orders can be as inane as letting the staffers off early for a holiday. Obama issued a four-page executive order renaming the "National Security Staff" to the "National Security Council Staff."

To me it isn't about tallying EOs it is reexamining the Executive's purpose; enforcing the law not writing it.

Offline sys

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #6864 on: June 21, 2018, 12:52:23 PM »
enforcing the law not writing it.

the issue at hand is about enforcing the law, not writing it.  trump signed an eo yesterday because he likes signing stuff on tv.  no eo was needed to change how the executive branch was enforcing existing law.
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #6865 on: June 21, 2018, 01:01:19 PM »
The idea that the executive has unlimited discretion to enforce (or refuse to enforce) the law is one of the worst legacies left from the b.o. admin. They completely redefined "prosecutorial discretion" to a level far exceeding the authority of the executive.
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Offline sonofdaxjones

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #6866 on: June 21, 2018, 01:22:03 PM »
The idea that the executive has unlimited discretion to enforce (or refuse to enforce) the law is one of the worst legacies left from the b.o. admin. They completely redefined "prosecutorial discretion" to a level far exceeding the authority of the executive.

Remember, b.o.'s foot soldiers were legit floating indefinite detention without charge powers . . . to be used on American Citizens.


Offline sys

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #6867 on: June 21, 2018, 01:57:44 PM »
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #6868 on: June 21, 2018, 03:47:47 PM »
The idea that the executive has unlimited discretion to enforce (or refuse to enforce) the law is one of the worst legacies left from the b.o. admin. They completely redefined "prosecutorial discretion" to a level far exceeding the authority of the executive.

Remember, b.o.'s foot soldiers were legit floating indefinite detention without charge powers . . . to be used on American Citizens.

Indefinite detention in the US is unconstitutional even if you are an immigrant so idk what you’re talking about.

Offline sonofdaxjones

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #6869 on: June 21, 2018, 03:52:12 PM »
The idea that the executive has unlimited discretion to enforce (or refuse to enforce) the law is one of the worst legacies left from the b.o. admin. They completely redefined "prosecutorial discretion" to a level far exceeding the authority of the executive.

Remember, b.o.'s foot soldiers were legit floating indefinite detention without charge powers . . . to be used on American Citizens.

Indefinite detention in the US is unconstitutional even if you are an immigrant so idk what you’re talking about.

Friend, under the auspices of Patriot Act (and related) expansion, Obama's minion were floating around the concept of being able to unilaterally declare someone an enemy of the state and to be able to indefinitely detain them.   Thankfully it all got shot down.  Forgot, it went into effect with the signing of the NDAA for 2012.

https://www.thenation.com/article/obama-and-indefinite-detention-us-citizens/
« Last Edit: June 21, 2018, 04:00:06 PM by sonofdaxjones »

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #6870 on: June 21, 2018, 07:44:02 PM »
The idea that the executive has unlimited discretion to enforce (or refuse to enforce) the law is one of the worst legacies left from the b.o. admin. They completely redefined "prosecutorial discretion" to a level far exceeding the authority of the executive.

Remember, b.o.'s foot soldiers were legit floating indefinite detention without charge powers . . . to be used on American Citizens.

Yes.  Eric Holder also wanted to use drones domestically to spy on us citizens.
#thinkprogress
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Offline DaBigTrain

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #6871 on: June 21, 2018, 07:45:47 PM »
Maybe we should create a new board where Dax and FSD can agree peacefully. I feel like if they could just stroke each other’s morals and beliefs they would be happier.
"The Times 03/Jan/2009 Chancellor on brink of second bailout for banks"

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Offline sonofdaxjones

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #6872 on: June 21, 2018, 08:27:13 PM »
Maybe we should create a new board where Dax and FSD can agree peacefully. I feel like if they could just stroke each other’s morals and beliefs they would be happier.

I don’t have to believe anything. I can just read the 2012 NDAA. 

Offline Phil Titola

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #6873 on: June 22, 2018, 08:29:27 AM »
Uhh ohhh ...DJT got rosannes husband on his trail

Tom Arnold says he's teaming up with Michael Cohen and 'taking Trump down' | TheHill

http://thehill.com/blogs/in-the-know/393598-tom-arnold-cohen-and-i-are-teaming-up-to-take-trump-down

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #6874 on: June 22, 2018, 08:33:42 AM »
 :lol: