Reading and Education

[Poster formerly known as jthutch]

My dad was a high school physical Science teacher and chemistry, and Physics.  Physical Science is required of all freshmen and he had a kid take that class 5 times and would not let him graduate until he could pass the class.  He was pretty much the only teacher who would not pass a kid.  Most other teachers don't want to have to deal with a kid like that and just pass them on to the next grade. 

Although my son's class (kindergarten) held back 3 kids this year.

[ben ji]

My dad was a high school physical Science teacher and chemistry, and Physics.  Physical Science is required of all freshmen and he had a kid take that class 5 times and would not let him graduate until he could pass the class.  He was pretty much the only teacher who would not pass a kid.  Most other teachers don't want to have to deal with a kid like that and just pass them on to the next grade. 

Although my son's class (kindergarten) held back 3 kids this year.

Sorry to hear about your son, at least he'll be one of the bigger kids on the freshman football team and get to drive a year before everyone else.....

[john "teach me how to" dougie]

teachers are revered in countries that have quality education. Germany, Japan, Sweden etc.  That's not the case here.  And they don't get paid well.  Our educators are far from our best and brightest.

Our education system doesn't really compare to other countries with better systems. I think it's less about the teacher's pay and more about the process.

After just a quick look at the German system, they separate students by ability, which would never fly here. We can't even separate by language comprehension.

As for Japan, they have private schools after lower middle school and is not compulsory.  Again, would not be allowed here (unions).

The US has a higher percentage of college graduates than Sweden, so I would assume we do as good a job as their higher priced teachers.

We are #32 in educational spending as a percentage of GDP out of 132, and only a few above the US are not 3rd world, so it would seem we do "less with more" compared to most of the world.

[Cire]

teachers are revered in countries that have quality education. Germany, Japan, Sweden etc.  That's not the case here.  And they don't get paid well.  Our educators are far from our best and brightest.

Our education system doesn't really compare to other countries with better systems. I think it's less about the teacher's pay and more about the process.

After just a quick look at the German system, they separate students by ability, which would never fly here. We can't even separate by language comprehension.

As for Japan, they have private schools after lower middle school and is not compulsory.  Again, would not be allowed here (unions).

The US has a higher percentage of college graduates than Sweden, so I would assume we do as good a job as their higher priced teachers.

We are #32 in educational spending as a percentage of GDP out of 132, and only a few above the US are not 3rd world, so it would seem we do "less with more" compared to most of the world.

you made my point, thanks.

[john "teach me how to" dougie]

teachers are revered in countries that have quality education. Germany, Japan, Sweden etc.  That's not the case here.  And they don't get paid well.  Our educators are far from our best and brightest.

Our education system doesn't really compare to other countries with better systems. I think it's less about the teacher's pay and more about the process.

After just a quick look at the German system, they separate students by ability, which would never fly here. We can't even separate by language comprehension.

As for Japan, they have private schools after lower middle school and is not compulsory.  Again, would not be allowed here (unions).

The US has a higher percentage of college graduates than Sweden, so I would assume we do as good a job as their higher priced teachers.

We are #32 in educational spending as a percentage of GDP out of 132, and only a few above the US are not 3rd world, so it would seem we do "less with more" compared to most of the world.

you made my point, thanks.

So you agree we do less with more.

[SkinnyBenny]

Love when people who have never been teachers (john doug) purport to know all about what's gone wrong in education and exactly how to fix it.  Also love the giant assumptive leaps these people make in lumping together all students, teachers, teachers unions, and school districts from all around the country, as if there are no differences at all between students in Montana and students in Louisiana.  LOVE it.    

[Dirty Sanchez]

Love when people who have never been business owners (stinky benny) purport to know all about what's gone wrong in business and exactly how to fix it.  Also love the giant assumptive leaps these people make in lumping together all big businesses, small businesses, owners, and and executives from all around the country, as if there are no differences at all between employers in Montana and employers in Louisiana.  LOVE it.    

[Poster formerly known as jthutch]

My dad was a high school physical Science teacher and chemistry, and Physics.  Physical Science is required of all freshmen and he had a kid take that class 5 times and would not let him graduate until he could pass the class.  He was pretty much the only teacher who would not pass a kid.  Most other teachers don't want to have to deal with a kid like that and just pass them on to the next grade. 

Although my son's class (kindergarten) held back 3 kids this year.

Sorry to hear about your son, at least he'll be one of the bigger kids on the freshman football team and get to drive a year before everyone else.....

That was a good one but not my son.

[john "teach me how to" dougie]

Love when people who have never been teachers (john doug) purport to know all about what's gone wrong in education and exactly how to fix it.  Also love the giant assumptive leaps these people make in lumping together all students, teachers, teachers unions, and school districts from all around the country, as if there are no differences at all between students in Montana and students in Louisiana.  LOVE it.    

Love when people on the board make assumptions about other posters whom they know absolutely nothing about and make themselves look foolish in the process.  LOVE it. 

[SkinnyBenny]

You a teacher?

[john "teach me how to" dougie]

You a teacher?

3 years high school science. Got laid off in 2000 during the dot.com collapse (programmer) and it was the best job I could find at the time. Pay is pretty decent in CA and I met my wife there (teacher, not student, you pervs), so it was good. Back programming since 2004.

[SkinnyBenny]

You a teacher?

3 years high school science. Got laid off in 2000 during the dot.com collapse (programmer) and it was the best job I could find at the time. Pay is pretty decent in CA and I met my wife there (teacher, not student, you pervs), so it was good. Back programming since 2004.

   My burst.

Well now that I know you've actually done it instead of other yay-hoos who think they have all the answers about how to fix schools but have never set foot in them as an employee, I give your thoughts more credence.  However, whenever this issue comes up, I never think there is one magical thing that needs to be tweaked and then *poof* it's all good.  Blanket statements like "students are bad because teachers are lazy and pass them when they should be held back!" don't work either because the demographics are so freaking different from region to region.  Yes, some teachers pass kids when they shouldn't be passed, but not always.  The school system I've spent the last 3 years in has no problem failing kids to the point that nearly 40% of the students have been held back at some point.  And yes, shitty parenting is also often to blame, but not all parents of underperforming kids are bad parents.  Sometimes kids have great parents but some of their teachers are lazy.  Sometimes their teachers are great but the parents are lazy.  And blaming unions kind of implies that all teachers are unionized, which certainly isn't the case.  And for that matter, not all teachers unions are bad.  You can't say "public schools suck!" because in some places the public schools are better than the private schools.  Blanket statements don't work when it comes to fixing education because every situation is different.  People from EVERY ANGLE -- students, teachers, parents, administrators, unions, etc. -- need to up their game a little bit.

[Cire]

teachers are revered in countries that have quality education. Germany, Japan, Sweden etc.  That's not the case here.  And they don't get paid well.  Our educators are far from our best and brightest.

Our education system doesn't really compare to other countries with better systems. I think it's less about the teacher's pay and more about the process.

After just a quick look at the German system, they separate students by ability, which would never fly here. We can't even separate by language comprehension.

As for Japan, they have private schools after lower middle school and is not compulsory.  Again, would not be allowed here (unions).

The US has a higher percentage of college graduates than Sweden, so I would assume we do as good a job as their higher priced teachers.

We are #32 in educational spending as a percentage of GDP out of 132, and only a few above the US are not 3rd world, so it would seem we do "less with more" compared to most of the world.

you made my point, thanks.

So you agree we do less with more.

In the united states, teachers are thought of so little that they aren't trusted to make educational decisions about the kids they teach.

[SkinnyBenny]

Love when people who have never been business owners (stinky benny) purport to know all about what's gone wrong in business and exactly how to fix it.  Also love the giant assumptive leaps these people make in lumping together all big businesses, small businesses, owners, and and executives from all around the country, as if there are no differences at all between employers in Montana and employers in Louisiana.  LOVE it.    

  Link plz? tia.

[john "teach me how to" dougie]

You a teacher?

3 years high school science. Got laid off in 2000 during the dot.com collapse (programmer) and it was the best job I could find at the time. Pay is pretty decent in CA and I met my wife there (teacher, not student, you pervs), so it was good. Back programming since 2004.

   My burst.

Well now that I know you've actually done it instead of other yay-hoos who think they have all the answers about how to fix schools but have never set foot in them as an employee, I give your thoughts more credence.  However, whenever this issue comes up, I never think there is one magical thing that needs to be tweaked and then *poof* it's all good.  Blanket statements like "students are bad because teachers are lazy and pass them when they should be held back!" don't work either because the demographics are so freaking different from region to region.  Yes, some teachers pass kids when they shouldn't be passed, but not always.  The school system I've spent the last 3 years in has no problem failing kids to the point that nearly 40% of the students have been held back at some point.  And yes, shitty parenting is also often to blame, but not all parents of underperforming kids are bad parents.  Sometimes kids have great parents but some of their teachers are lazy.  Sometimes their teachers are great but the parents are lazy.  And blaming unions kind of implies that all teachers are unionized, which certainly isn't the case.  And for that matter, not all teachers unions are bad.  You can't say "public schools suck!" because in some places the public schools are better than the private schools.  Blanket statements don't work when it comes to fixing education because every situation is different.  People from EVERY ANGLE -- students, teachers, parents, administrators, unions, etc. -- need to up their game a little bit.

I agree with everything you said. I have only dealt with the CA teachers union and it was one of the reasons I decided to quit teaching. I was actually having a good time and traveled a lot in the summer.

It seemed to me that the unions sole purpose was to keep control over the state legislature and further their liberal agenda, and it irked me to no end that my money was being used for that purpose rather than helping teachers deal with poor administration.

$1,000,000 to fight the gay marriage proposition? Really?

[Sugar Dick]

Teacher's unions and tenure.

I generally dislike unions, but teachers don't make very much, so I don't think the union is a real problem in this case. Tenure could be a good thing if teachers needed it to handle the public backlash of 10% of a class not advancing to the next grade. Sadly, nobody ever gets held back and we graduate 'tards who can't even balance a check book (~50% of all Americans).

This is what they keep telling everyone, but  in many states the average teacher's salary is more than the median household income for their state. I don't have a problem with this, but they have no reason to constantly complain about being underpaid. Performance based pay would go a long way toward increasing student performance.

Not to mention they only work 8 months a year. 

[Dirty Sanchez]

Teacher's unions and tenure.

I generally dislike unions, but teachers don't make very much, so I don't think the union is a real problem in this case. Tenure could be a good thing if teachers needed it to handle the public backlash of 10% of a class not advancing to the next grade. Sadly, nobody ever gets held back and we graduate 'tards who can't even balance a check book (~50% of all Americans).

This is what they keep telling everyone, but  in many states the average teacher's salary is more than the median household income for their state. I don't have a problem with this, but they have no reason to constantly complain about being underpaid. Performance based pay would go a long way toward increasing student performance.

Not to mention they only work 8 months a year. 

That's true, but with a caveat for many.  Its not an 8-4 M-F, 8 months of the year job.  Many stay at school for hours after the kids leave and/or take work home and work hours there.  Many get summer jobs, including some with school programs, too.

[06wildcat]

Teacher's unions and tenure.

I generally dislike unions, but teachers don't make very much, so I don't think the union is a real problem in this case. Tenure could be a good thing if teachers needed it to handle the public backlash of 10% of a class not advancing to the next grade. Sadly, nobody ever gets held back and we graduate 'tards who can't even balance a check book (~50% of all Americans).

This is what they keep telling everyone, but  in many states the average teacher's salary is more than the median household income for their state. I don't have a problem with this, but they have no reason to constantly complain about being underpaid. Performance based pay would go a long way toward increasing student performance.

Not to mention they only work 8 months a year. 

That's true, but with a caveat for many.  Its not an 8-4 M-F, 8 months of the year job.  Many stay at school for hours after the kids leave and/or take work home and work hours there.  Many get summer jobs, including some with school programs, too.

Welcome to the world of salary. I get that teachers aren't paid very well considering they're working with other people's kids all day. But when you take a job on salary you're going to stay late/work from home. I do it every day for 50 weeks a year.

Yes, I understand teachers have to continue their education, which often includes their free time and they have to pay for that education (somewhat since most districts have automatic raises built in for advanced degrees). Lots of other people have to pay for classes/seminars to keep current with their jobs too.

I really do appreciate what teachers do. I know I couldn't put up with 15-30 kids for five to six hours a day for 190 days of the year. Outside of that, the working conditions are going to be pretty much the same at other salary jobs. Only there you get two weeks of vacation, a handful of sick leave that doesn't accrue each year.