Author Topic: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!  (Read 49393 times)

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Offline Dr Rick Daris

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #425 on: December 08, 2017, 12:49:59 PM »
If somebody tells him that they want him to make a generic cake that he makes all the time that they are then going to use to throw in the face of the pope, can he refuse to make it?

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #426 on: December 08, 2017, 12:56:16 PM »
In Kill Bill, Beatrix Kiddo had Hattori Hanzo make her a sword for the specific purpose of killing Bill.

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #427 on: December 08, 2017, 12:57:43 PM »
It just now occurred to me that she did not even use that sword to kill him. That is, the sword did not deliver the fatal blow.

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #428 on: December 08, 2017, 12:59:22 PM »
Is Hattori Hanzo any more right or wrong to make Beatrix Kiddo a sword for the specific purpose of killing Bill depending on whether or not the sword delivers the fatal blow?

Offline catastrophe

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #429 on: December 08, 2017, 01:02:27 PM »
And if your argument is that there is a distinction between having already baked a cake and baking the SAME rough ridin' cake knowing it is going to be used for a particular purpose, then I'd like to hear why that should be any different than a restaurant saying they will not sell any catering to be used at a gay wedding but they're welcome to take whatever they want from the buffet.

:impatient:

To be fair, you've said a bunch of dumb crap so far and I didn't feel like it made sense to respond to all of it. Explain whatever it is that you want to know in a different way, because I read the above twice and still don't get what you're asking.

 :jerk:

Ok, here you go.

You think this case is special because even if the baker is making the same exact cake he would make for a straight couple's wedding, he knows it is going to be used at a gay couple's wedding.  That is an extraordinarily difficult distinction to make, as illustrated by the following examples.  Tell me which is protected and which is not:

1. Man walks into the same bakery and asks for a wedding cake.  He picks one from a stock portfolio and before icing is put on the cake the man asks if the baker could please write: congratulations Jason and Mike.  The baker asks if the cake is going to be used at a gay wedding.  Man says no, but being suspicious the baker refuses to finish or sell the cake.

2. A Mormon painter has a website advertising that he will turn photographs into paintings that people send in.  One picture is of a black man praying.  The Mormon refuses to paint the picture explaining that he believes black people are cursed that it is an affront to him to depict one talking to god.

3. Man orders 30 trays of Chick-Fil-A catering.  Before making the food, Chick-Fil-A asks him to sign a form saying the food will not be used at a gay wedding.

Offline Spracne

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #430 on: December 08, 2017, 02:04:10 PM »
This is going to come down to Justice Kennedy. Yes, Kennedy wrote the majority opinion in the gay marriage case (Obergefell v. Hodges), but his opinion also contained the following caveat: "[T]hose who adhere to religious doctrines may continue to advocate with utmost, sincere conviction that, by divine precepts, same-sex marriage should not be condoned,” and he made clear that they are protected in this mission by the First Amendment.

Note that this is NOT an issue of federal law. The issue is whether the Colorado law under which the baker was punished violates the Constitution. There is no federal law prohibiting the baker from doing what he did. Laws that classify on the basis of sexual orientation appear to receive heightened (intermediate, specifically) scrutiny by SCOTUS, although this is not clearly settled. (Ironically, this was first introduced by a case that invalidated a provision in the Colorado constitution that denied certain benefits to gays). So Colorado will need to show that the law furthers an "important" government interest by means that are "substantially related" to that interest.

But of course the Supremacy Clause in the Constitution means that the Colorado law cannot conflict with established federal law, in any case. And part of the punishment levied against the baker required that he train his staff on how to comply with the law, meaning he could be forced to instruct his staff on how his deeply held religious beliefs are discriminatory. The problem here is that the First Amendment enjoys special solicitude in the constellation of constitutional freedoms, and it could be argued that this amounts to "compelled speech" or "viewpoint discrimination," both of which are mighty oaks and big  :nono:'s in free speech jurisprudence. Add in the sincerely held belief element in this case, and I think there's a path forward for Justice Kennedy to side with the baker. I think it could be possible to invalidate that portion of the Colorado law and reverse the judgment, with further proceedings possible. The sincerely held belief element has well-established doctrine that should prevent the type of arbitrary hypos that have been suggested in this thread and elsewhere. There must be a real and long-held tradition of adherence to the idea by a real and long-existing religious group.


Offline Mrs. Gooch

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #431 on: December 08, 2017, 02:07:46 PM »
What if I am a baker who makes commitment ceremony cakes, but I don't believe in marriage so I will not let you buy one of my commitment ceremony cakes to use at your wedding? Is that ok?

Offline Spracne

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #432 on: December 08, 2017, 02:10:02 PM »
What if I am a baker who makes commitment ceremony cakes, but I don't believe in marriage so I will not let you buy one of my commitment ceremony cakes to use at your wedding? Is that ok?

Under both Colorado law and federal law, that is perfectly fine.

Offline catastrophe

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #433 on: December 08, 2017, 02:40:18 PM »
How could you square the sincerely help belief with the baker’s willingness to make a gay wedding shower cake?

Offline Spracne

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #434 on: December 08, 2017, 02:42:05 PM »
How could you square the sincerely help belief with the baker’s willingness to make a gay wedding shower cake?

Didn't it say "shower," not "wedding shower"? Could have referred to a baby shower, or any other bullshit.

Offline catastrophe

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #435 on: December 08, 2017, 02:42:19 PM »
And I think you’re discounting how sincerely Chick-fil-a hates gay marriage.

Offline catastrophe

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #436 on: December 08, 2017, 02:43:42 PM »
How could you square the sincerely help belief with the baker’s willingness to make a gay wedding shower cake?

Didn't it say "shower," not "wedding shower"? Could have referred to a baby shower, or any other bullshit.

:lol:

Let’s assume he meant wedding shower when speaking to the gay couple about their gay wedding. At least answer the hypo.

Offline catastrophe

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #437 on: December 08, 2017, 02:45:42 PM »
I mean, I’d also be interested how it squares with the baker being ok celebrating a gay couple having a child together if he’s sincerely against gay marriage.

Offline Spracne

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #438 on: December 08, 2017, 02:51:27 PM »
How could you square the sincerely help belief with the baker’s willingness to make a gay wedding shower cake?

Didn't it say "shower," not "wedding shower"? Could have referred to a baby shower, or any other bullshit.

:lol:

Let’s assume he meant wedding shower when speaking to the gay couple about their gay wedding. At least answer the hypo.

Why deal with hypos when we could deal with the actual facts?

As the couple’s brief says, Mr Phillips told the men that it is his “standard business practice not to provide cakes for same-sex weddings”. While happy to “sell the couple other baked goods, including ‘birthday cakes, shower cakes, … cookies and brownies’”, he draws the line at nuptials: “I just don’t make cakes for same-sex weddings”.

So, should we also assume he meant gay-wedding birthday cakes, gay-wedding cookies, and gay-wedding brownies? noscitur a sociis, bitch.

Offline Spracne

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #439 on: December 08, 2017, 02:53:48 PM »
I mean, I’d also be interested how it squares with the baker being ok celebrating a gay couple having a child together if he’s sincerely against gay marriage.

We're talking about a state that banned gay marriage until the Supreme Court overturned it in 1996 (going with this date from memory, maybe give or take a year). Some people think marriage is sacred, yet they may also support a gay couple raising a child in need. I do think religious types treat marriage as a sacred religious ceremony. But don't get mad at me; I'm just trying to educate you about the law.

Offline Spracne

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #440 on: December 08, 2017, 02:57:53 PM »
Also, there is no Constitutional principle that requires individuals to be consistent with the application of their beliefs. The Constitution only targets arbitrary actions of governments. If this is indeed an expression of a deeply held religious belief, the government cannot require him to be perfectly consistent in how he expresses those beliefs. And for good reason. Remember, this is a case about a state law versus Constitutional law.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2017, 03:02:19 PM by Spracne »

Offline catastrophe

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #441 on: December 08, 2017, 03:01:03 PM »
How could you square the sincerely help belief with the baker’s willingness to make a gay wedding shower cake?

Didn't it say "shower," not "wedding shower"? Could have referred to a baby shower, or any other bullshit.

:lol:

Let’s assume he meant wedding shower when speaking to the gay couple about their gay wedding. At least answer the hypo.

Why deal with hypos when we could deal with the actual facts?

As the couple’s brief says, Mr Phillips told the men that it is his “standard business practice not to provide cakes for same-sex weddings”. While happy to “sell the couple other baked goods, including ‘birthday cakes, shower cakes, … cookies and brownies’”, he draws the line at nuptials: “I just don’t make cakes for same-sex weddings”.

So, should we also assume he meant gay-wedding birthday cakes, gay-wedding cookies, and gay-wedding brownies? noscitur a sociis, bitch.


Quote
Could have referred to a baby shower

Quote
noscitur a sociis, bitch


Offline Spracne

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #442 on: December 08, 2017, 03:03:17 PM »
What are you trying to communicate?

Offline catastrophe

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #443 on: December 08, 2017, 03:06:39 PM »
Also, there is no Constitutional principle that requires individuals to be consistent with the application of their beliefs. The Constitution only targets arbitrary actions of governments. If this is indeed an expression of a deeply held religious belief, the government cannot require him to be perfectly consistent in how he expresses those beliefs. And for good reason. Remember, this is a case above a state law versus Constitutional law.

I think you are (purposely?) missing the point.  Surely you would agree with me that the justices would not determine the baker had a "sincerely held belief" if he baked a cake for a gay wedding the week before.  I mean, obviously they're not requiring him to be consistent with the commands of Jesus or else he'd be DOA in his stance.

It is not much of a leap to suggest the same reasoning would apply to his willingness to support other gay-wedding related celebrations when inquiring as to whether he sincerely holds the belief he espouses on gay marriage. 


Offline catastrophe

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #444 on: December 08, 2017, 03:07:39 PM »
What are you trying to communicate?

You're trying to tell me to look at context when interpreting the word "shower" while simultaneously suggesting the baker could have been discussing making a baby shower cake for a couple he knew was getting married but had no idea whether they had children or not.

Offline Spracne

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #445 on: December 08, 2017, 03:11:28 PM »
Also, there is no Constitutional principle that requires individuals to be consistent with the application of their beliefs. The Constitution only targets arbitrary actions of governments. If this is indeed an expression of a deeply held religious belief, the government cannot require him to be perfectly consistent in how he expresses those beliefs. And for good reason. Remember, this is a case above a state law versus Constitutional law.

I think you are (purposely?) missing the point.  Surely you would agree with me that the justices would not determine the baker had a "sincerely held belief" if he baked a cake for a gay wedding the week before.  I mean, obviously they're not requiring him to be consistent with the commands of Jesus or else he'd be DOA in his stance.

It is not much of a leap to suggest the same reasoning would apply to his willingness to support other gay-wedding related celebrations when inquiring as to whether he sincerely holds the belief he espouses on gay marriage.

Is there any allegation that he had baked a cake for a gay wedding the week before? No? So how is that relevant to this case?

Is it much of a leap? That's arguable. I do think it's reasonable to consider that a religious person may take umbrage with the gay marriage ceremony--which is an actual religious ritual in many Christian faiths that don't endorse homosexuality--while being OK with providing baked goods for other peripheral celebrations that do not involve a religious sacrament.

Offline Spracne

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #446 on: December 08, 2017, 03:12:55 PM »
What are you trying to communicate?

You're trying to tell me to look at context when interpreting the word "shower" while simultaneously suggesting the baker could have been discussing making a baby shower cake for a couple he knew was getting married but had no idea whether they had children or not.

There are like a bajillion ridiculous "showers" that people celebrate. He also had no clue if either of them had a birthday coming up, or had a hankering for cookies. What's your point?

Offline Spracne

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #447 on: December 08, 2017, 03:14:56 PM »
We're getting a bit off-track. My point in this aside is that there is no real reason to assume he meant wedding shower. And even if he did, that is in no way a "gotcha!"

Offline Spracne

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #448 on: December 08, 2017, 03:16:11 PM »
There's a killer comeback dangling out there for you, but I'm not going to help you out, since you've been so rude to me...

Offline K-S-U-Wildcats!

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I've said it before and I'll say it again, K-State fans could have beheaded the entire KU team at midcourt, and K-State fans would be celebrating it this morning.  They are the ISIS of Big 12 fanbases.