Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!

[_33]

I wonder if this guy would make a Ramadan cake? Kwanza cake? Bar mitzvah cake? Quinceañera cake?

Assuming he's not just a bigot (spoiler: he is), I'm sure he would not make a cake for a couple celebrating their son's first birthday if they did not have him in wedlock.

Is there something in the bible about not celebrating a childs 1st birthday?

[catastrophe]

Yes. Or, at least as much as there is about celebrating a gay couple's wedding.

[star seed 7]

I wonder if this guy would make a Ramadan cake? Kwanza cake? Bar mitzvah cake? Quinceañera cake?

Assuming he's not just a bigot (spoiler: he is), I'm sure he would not make a cake for a couple celebrating their son's first birthday if they did not have him in wedlock.

Is there something in the bible about not celebrating a childs 1st birthday?

There are religions that prohibit celebrating birthdays

[michigancat]

he absolutely would sell a gay couple a cake for a straight wedding because he has no problems with straight weddings and he has no problem sellingng things to gay couples. now he wouldn't make and sell them a cake for Halloween or for a divorce just like he wouldn't make and sell a cake like that to a straight couple. it's the design and the theme and not the person or people. he is dividing between a straight wedding cake and a gay wedding cake. so in that way, the gay wedding cake is like a Halloween cake or a divorce cake to him. he won't explicitly and with knowledge make one.

Yes, this is really all he has to stand on, and it's a difficult argument when the ingredients and process to create a "gay wedding cake" could be identical to the ingredients of a "straight wedding cake" or an interracial wedding cake. allowing him to distinguish between a "straight wedding cake" and "gay wedding cake"

Also lol at the Trump attorney:

Kristen K. Waggoner, a lawyer for Mr. Phillips, said the state should not be able to force him to endorse same-sex marriage in violation of his religious principles. But she took a different position about whether a baker could refuse to create a cake for an interracial marriage.

Solicitor General Noel J. Francisco, the Trump administration lawyer, also said that it would be harder to justify discrimination against interracial couples than gay ones. “Race is particularly unique,” Mr. Francisco said.

That distinction did not seem to sit well with some justices. And David D. Cole, a lawyer for the couple, said it would relegate gay and lesbian couples to “second-class status.”

while no designs were discussed, that's just because the convo didn't make it that far. the couple came into his shop with one of their moms and started looking through one of his design books. he came over and asked what he could help them with and they said they wanted him to make a cake for their wedding and he stopped them and said that he couldn't do that. they got mad and left. the link saying that he would sell off the shelf cakes for gay weddings, but not design or make one explicitly for one is below. it's towards the end.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/05/us/politics/supreme-court-same-sex-marriage-cake.html

thanks for that link. IMO selling only off-the-shelf pre-made wedding cakes for a gay wedding is a bit like a butcher only selling nearly-expired meat for a gay wedding but whatevs

[Woogy]

to explain this another way....

if my wife and I went into this guys store and said that we wanted him to make a cake for our gay friends wedding, he would tell us no and sorry but he can't and won't do that.

if a gay couple went into this guys store and said that they wanted him to make a cake for their straight friends wedding, he'd say so sure no problem.

I doubt he'd sell the gay couple a cake for a straight wedding but regardless I still think the baker in your scenario is in the wrong and discriminating gays.

Also, he won't sell Halloween cakes to anyone, so there's no discrimination by refusing a request for a Halloween cake. He'll sell wedding cakes to anyone but gays - that's the issue here. If he refused to sell wedding cakes to anyone there wouldn't be a problem.

the dude and not that anyone here seems to care, would have also happily sold them a premade already on the shelf wedding cake for their gay wedding. he just wasn't willing to create one specifically for their gay wedding. again not that anyone seems to care about specifics or actually thinking about what happened in any detail within this thread.

do you have a link confirming this? Because this link says no designs were discussed:

http://www.latimes.com/politics/la-na-pol-court-wedding-cake-20171205-story.html

Cole said the dispute did not involve words or speech. “The only thing the baker knew about these customers was that they were gay,” he said. “There was no request for a design. There was no request for message. He refused to sell any wedding cake. And that’s identity-based discrimination.”

(granted that is the ACLU lawyer but I would be interested to see the other side)

he absolutely would sell a gay couple a cake for a straight wedding because he has no problems with straight weddings and he has no problem sellingng things to gay couples. now he wouldn't make and sell them a cake for Halloween or for a divorce just like he wouldn't make and sell a cake like that to a straight couple. it's the design and the theme and not the person or people. he is dividing between a straight wedding cake and a gay wedding cake. so in that way, the gay wedding cake is like a Halloween cake or a divorce cake to him. he won't explicitly and with knowledge make one.

while no designs were discussed, that's just because the convo didn't make it that far. the couple came into his shop with one of their moms and started looking through one of his design books. he came over and asked what he could help them with and they said they wanted him to make a cake for their wedding and he stopped them and said that he couldn't do that. they got mad and left. the link saying that he would sell off the shelf cakes for gay weddings, but not design or make one explicitly for one is below. it's towards the end.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/05/us/politics/supreme-court-same-sex-marriage-cake.html

Colorado's administrative decision - yeah its on the Alliance Defending Freedom site, but anyway: http://www.adfmedia.org/files/MasterpieceDecision.pdf

Findings of Fact:

6. Phillips informed Complainants that he does not create wedding cakes for same-sex weddings.  Phillips told the men, “I’ll make you birthday cakes, shower cakes, sell you cookies and brownies, I just don’t make cakes for same-sex weddings.”

I wonder how much the conflict in Colorado law at the time could factor, although I guess that's not a point that's really being argued and would probably only serve as an eject button. Public Accomodation law denotes orientation as a protected class, yet Colorado's constitution and other statues outlined valid marriage - and thus weddings - as heterosexual.

[Mrs. Gooch]

Wait, the guy would make a gay shower cake, but not a gay wedding cake?

[catastrophe]

He’ll also do every gay anniversary (except for the 0 anniversary obviously).

[michigancat]

Wait, the guy would make a gay shower cake, but not a gay wedding cake?

We may disagree on a lot of things in this thread but at least we can all hopefully agree that this cake guy is a complete dumbass.

[Skipper44]

Wait, the guy would make a gay shower cake, but not a gay wedding cake?

We may disagree on a lot of things in this thread but at least we can all hopefully agree that this cake guy is a complete dumbass.

sadly his business probably increased from all this

[Dr Rick Daris]

Wait, the guy would make a gay shower cake, but not a gay wedding cake?

We may disagree on a lot of things in this thread but at least we can all hopefully agree that this cake guy is a complete dumbass.

it just goes against an incredibly strong held religious belief of his. i don't believe in god or religion or whatever and i am super pro gay marriage, but in a weird way i kind of admire the guy for having his opinion and not swaying on it. i guess i also just don't feel like it comes from a bad place with him. maybe I'm wrong and maybe I'm weird too but i kind of think crap are were really going to force this guy to do this? the more i learned about the case and what actually happened etc the more i feel like i just want him to be able to run his business the way he sees fit and make the cakes he feels like he can as a human being. is he weird as hell for not being willing to make a halloween cake? sure. is not making gay wedding cakes a little insensitive to gay couples? sure. but i think it's also insensitive to force this guy by law to make them.

[Dr Rick Daris]

Wait, the guy would make a gay shower cake, but not a gay wedding cake?

We may disagree on a lot of things in this thread but at least we can all hopefully agree that this cake guy is a complete dumbass.

sadly his business probably increased from all this

it didn't. he stopped making custom wedding cakes altogether and his business dropped 40%. he's had to lay off employees. don't let any of that get in the way of the uninformed and incorrect points you're trying to make though.

[michigancat]

Wait, the guy would make a gay shower cake, but not a gay wedding cake?

We may disagree on a lot of things in this thread but at least we can all hopefully agree that this cake guy is a complete dumbass.

it just goes against an incredibly strong held religious belief of his. i don't believe in god or religion or whatever and i am super pro gay marriage, but in a weird way i kind of admire the guy for having his opinion and not swaying on it. i guess i also just don't feel like it comes from a bad place with him. maybe I'm wrong and maybe I'm weird too but i kind of think crap are were really going to force this guy to do this? the more i learned about the case and what actually happened etc the more i feel like i just want him to be able to run his business the way he sees fit and make the cakes he feels like he can as a human being. is he weird as hell for not being willing to make a halloween cake? sure. is not making gay wedding cakes a little insensitive to gay couples? sure. but i think it's also insensitive to force this guy by law to make them.

I get all that I just think he's pretty dumb guy who isn't very good at thinking logically.

I also think it's outrageous that you're ok with him given the slippery slope precedent it provides but I do not think you are a dumbass at all.

[DQ12]

FYI, here's a link to a transcript of the oral argument:

https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2017/16-111_f314.pdf

[Trogdor]

I simply cannot wrap my head around this gay couple wanting to force a guy diametrically opposed to their entire way of life to sell them something they can buy any other place.

It is such a bizarre premise.

Dude is really good at making cakes

[Mrs. Gooch]

Wait, the guy would make a gay shower cake, but not a gay wedding cake?

We may disagree on a lot of things in this thread but at least we can all hopefully agree that this cake guy is a complete dumbass.

it just goes against an incredibly strong held religious belief of his. i don't believe in god or religion or whatever and i am super pro gay marriage, but in a weird way i kind of admire the guy for having his opinion and not swaying on it. i guess i also just don't feel like it comes from a bad place with him. maybe I'm wrong and maybe I'm weird too but i kind of think crap are were really going to force this guy to do this? the more i learned about the case and what actually happened etc the more i feel like i just want him to be able to run his business the way he sees fit and make the cakes he feels like he can as a human being. is he weird as hell for not being willing to make a halloween cake? sure. is not making gay wedding cakes a little insensitive to gay couples? sure. but i think it's also insensitive to force this guy by law to make them.

This guy has the strongly held belief that:

1) Two gay guys should not get married
2) It is ok to celebrate the intent of two gay guys to get married

[catastrophe]

Gay couple: we’re getting married!

Baker: Yay! I’m so happy for you. For the sake of my religion I hope it falls apart before it’s completely official but congrats!

[renocat]

http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2017/03/22/pastor-claims-christians-can-cure-homosexuals-by-baking-them-cake/
Supposedly this Pastor claims that you can pray over a cake, and the Holy Ghost will be infused in it.  The offering of such a cake to a gay person is a good will gesture (?).  I am confused.  Didn't know cake could be so complicated.  Regular non descript cakes, artistic cakes, and now Holy Cakes.

[Dr Rick Daris]

Wait, the guy would make a gay shower cake, but not a gay wedding cake?

We may disagree on a lot of things in this thread but at least we can all hopefully agree that this cake guy is a complete dumbass.

it just goes against an incredibly strong held religious belief of his. i don't believe in god or religion or whatever and i am super pro gay marriage, but in a weird way i kind of admire the guy for having his opinion and not swaying on it. i guess i also just don't feel like it comes from a bad place with him. maybe I'm wrong and maybe I'm weird too but i kind of think crap are were really going to force this guy to do this? the more i learned about the case and what actually happened etc the more i feel like i just want him to be able to run his business the way he sees fit and make the cakes he feels like he can as a human being. is he weird as hell for not being willing to make a halloween cake? sure. is not making gay wedding cakes a little insensitive to gay couples? sure. but i think it's also insensitive to force this guy by law to make them.

I get all that I just think he's pretty dumb guy who isn't very good at thinking logically.

I also think it's outrageous that you're ok with him given the slippery slope precedent it provides but I do not think you are a dumbass at all.

I'm not 100% Ok with it but I'm also not 100% ok with the other side either. I guess I could also say that I think it's outrageous that you're ok with the government forcing him to make the cake given the slippery slope precedent it provides. Should he have to make a devil worshipping cake? Should he have to make a kkk cake? Should he have to make a cake for a religion he doesn't agree with or a cake celebrating the holocaust or 9/11. What if he's a broncos fan and hates the raiders and a raider fan wants him to make a cake of a raider pissing on a bronco? Does he have to do that? You're ok with a precedent that says this guys has no control of the type of cakes he makes? Somebody wants a cake of a 50 year old man rough ridin' a two year old and they want it made out of cheese. This guy has to make it?

[catastrophe]

Wait, the guy would make a gay shower cake, but not a gay wedding cake?

We may disagree on a lot of things in this thread but at least we can all hopefully agree that this cake guy is a complete dumbass.

it just goes against an incredibly strong held religious belief of his. i don't believe in god or religion or whatever and i am super pro gay marriage, but in a weird way i kind of admire the guy for having his opinion and not swaying on it. i guess i also just don't feel like it comes from a bad place with him. maybe I'm wrong and maybe I'm weird too but i kind of think crap are were really going to force this guy to do this? the more i learned about the case and what actually happened etc the more i feel like i just want him to be able to run his business the way he sees fit and make the cakes he feels like he can as a human being. is he weird as hell for not being willing to make a halloween cake? sure. is not making gay wedding cakes a little insensitive to gay couples? sure. but i think it's also insensitive to force this guy by law to make them.

I get all that I just think he's pretty dumb guy who isn't very good at thinking logically.

I also think it's outrageous that you're ok with him given the slippery slope precedent it provides but I do not think you are a dumbass at all.

I'm not 100% Ok with it but I'm also not 100% ok with the other side either. I guess I could also say that I think it's outrageous that you're ok with the government forcing him to make the cake given the slippery slope precedent it provides. Should he have to make a devil worshipping cake? Should he have to make a kkk cake? Should he have to make a cake for a religion he doesn't agree with or a cake celebrating the holocaust or 9/11. What if he's a broncos fan and hates the raiders and a raider fan wants him to make a cake if a raider pissing on a bronco? Does he have to do that?

I'm going to try one last time to respond to your hypotheticals because you have yet to respond to mine, but here goes:

It is EASY to draw a line between being asked to do something you DO NOT DO and something that you do for some people but not others.  That is what is going on here.  The couple never discussed specific designs, so the question presented to the Supreme Court is whether the baker should be able to create a wedding cake for straight couples but not create the SAME CAKE for others.

It is NOT EASY to draw a line between what a person INTENDS TO DO with the product you create.  Presumably if the gay couple said "actually, this was for a straight wedding, not ours" you could have a situation where the baker says, "I don't believe you, I'm not doing it because I think you are going to use it in your wedding."

[catastrophe]

So to answer your scenarios, no, he would not have to make a cake with a Klansman on it unless he already sells those cakes to everyone but people who he suspects are KKK members.  Same for devil worshipers.

[Dr Rick Daris]

I feel like the overarching problem for some of you people is that this guys differentiates between two cakes that might be the same cake when he knows before he makes them that one is going to be for a straight wedding and one is going to be for a gay wedding. It's an interesting concept and without a doubt takes at minimum fifteen seconds to think about.

[catastrophe]

And if your argument is that there is a distinction between having already baked a cake and baking the SAME rough ridin' cake knowing it is going to be used for a particular purpose, then I'd like to hear why that should be any different than a restaurant saying they will not sell any catering to be used at a gay wedding but they're welcome to take whatever they want from the buffet.

[chum1]

I've thought about this issue as much as I care to. (Somewhere between 15 seconds and 15 minutes.) My conclusion: There are super easy practical solutions for each side. For example, LIE! Both sides are wrong for being hard headed dumbasses for not employing one. Neither is right. And to put an end to this, they need to have a beer together with Trump ASAP.

[Dr Rick Daris]

And if your argument is that there is a distinction between having already baked a cake and baking the SAME rough ridin' cake knowing it is going to be used for a particular purpose, then I'd like to hear why that should be any different than a restaurant saying they will not sell any catering to be used at a gay wedding but they're welcome to take whatever they want from the buffet.

To be fair, you've said a bunch of dumb crap so far and I didn't feel like it made sense to respond to all of it. Explain whatever it is that you want to know in a different way, because I read the above twice and still don't get what you're asking.

[michigancat]

Wait, the guy would make a gay shower cake, but not a gay wedding cake?

We may disagree on a lot of things in this thread but at least we can all hopefully agree that this cake guy is a complete dumbass.

it just goes against an incredibly strong held religious belief of his. i don't believe in god or religion or whatever and i am super pro gay marriage, but in a weird way i kind of admire the guy for having his opinion and not swaying on it. i guess i also just don't feel like it comes from a bad place with him. maybe I'm wrong and maybe I'm weird too but i kind of think crap are were really going to force this guy to do this? the more i learned about the case and what actually happened etc the more i feel like i just want him to be able to run his business the way he sees fit and make the cakes he feels like he can as a human being. is he weird as hell for not being willing to make a halloween cake? sure. is not making gay wedding cakes a little insensitive to gay couples? sure. but i think it's also insensitive to force this guy by law to make them.

I get all that I just think he's pretty dumb guy who isn't very good at thinking logically.

I also think it's outrageous that you're ok with him given the slippery slope precedent it provides but I do not think you are a dumbass at all.

I'm not 100% Ok with it but I'm also not 100% ok with the other side either. I guess I could also say that I think it's outrageous that you're ok with the government forcing him to make the cake given the slippery slope precedent it provides. Should he have to make a devil worshipping cake? Should he have to make a kkk cake? Should he have to make a cake for a religion he doesn't agree with or a cake celebrating the holocaust or 9/11. What if he's a broncos fan and hates the raiders and a raider fan wants him to make a cake of a raider pissing on a bronco? Does he have to do that? You're ok with a precedent that says this guys has no control of the type of cakes he makes? Somebody wants a cake of a 50 year old man rough ridin' a two year old and they want it made out of cheese. This guy has to make it?

I think all your examples are clear artistic expression (depending on the design you have in mind) that could be refused and are also not for people protected by anti-discrimination laws. (the devil worshippers might be). IMO a theoretical custom cake is not yet artistic expression.

I'm reading the court arguments, it's pretty interesting.