The Black Lives Matter plan for police reform

[ednksu]

http://www.joincampaignzero.org/#vision

Some revolutionary ideas, some very recycled ideas, and some ideas that aren't that great.  It's at least a productive addition to the conversation with real steps to take instead of a wish list of theories and platitudes.

[renocat]

The main points seem reasonable points to start from, but the details scare me.  However you have points to start dialog from instead of everyone frothing at the mouth and yelling at each other.  To date though I have seen nothing that indicates this movement's leaders are willing to compromise.  And until rabid looting and rioting ends there will no progress.  We do need to weed out knuckle head cops.  Pay good people to be good police

[CNS]

The other side hasn't even come to negotiate.   Of course they haven't shown willingness to compromise.

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[ednksu]

Some of the proposals are pretty good, like beefing up civilian oversight.  Some of them are already being done, like body cams.  It would be nice if the fed took a bit more of an active role in that project, especially to offset costs for small departments.  The big problems I see are ending things like broken window policing with no real evidence why.  The reality is NYC had a correlated drop in crime with their policy.  Okay it sucks that people got long sheets... they were still doing wrong, total non-sequitur in my book.  The other big issue I have is suspending police without pay ( have no problem with the no pay if charged with any crime where they stop at felony).  Police are one of two professions where society give a person implicit authority to take a life of another person.  To suspend someone without pay in a legitimate shooting (unless they do retroactive repayment, but that isn't mentioned) is bad because you are punishing a person for doing what you've hired them to do.

[michigancat]

The reality is NYC had a correlated drop in crime with their policy.  Okay it sucks that people got long sheets... they were still doing wrong, total non-sequitur in my book. 

the NYC crime drop correlated with a ton of things

[ednksu]

The reality is NYC had a correlated drop in crime with their policy.  Okay it sucks that people got long sheets... they were still doing wrong, total non-sequitur in my book. 

the NYC crime drop correlated with a ton of things

agreed and that is why I said correlated instead of caused.  too many variables to say with that level of accuracy, but there is also no evidence to disprove that claim.

[Kat Kid]

The reality is NYC had a correlated drop in crime with their policy.  Okay it sucks that people got long sheets... they were still doing wrong, total non-sequitur in my book. 

the NYC crime drop correlated with a ton of things

agreed and that is why I said correlated instead of caused.  too many variables to say with that level of accuracy, but there is also no evidence to disprove that claim.

Right, but we do know the long list of very real costs of broken windows policing along with the very difficult to isolate and largely overstated benefits.

[ednksu]

The reality is NYC had a correlated drop in crime with their policy.  Okay it sucks that people got long sheets... they were still doing wrong, total non-sequitur in my book. 

the NYC crime drop correlated with a ton of things

agreed and that is why I said correlated instead of caused.  too many variables to say with that level of accuracy, but there is also no evidence to disprove that claim.

Right, but we do know the long list of very real costs of broken windows policing along with the very difficult to isolate and largely overstated benefits.

Real costs like?  The problem is that these are still crimes that they are prosecuting. Sounds like the beef is more with the legislature than the police in many instance.

[Kat Kid]

People getting locked up is pretty costly.

The New York Times just got done doing a series on the effects of people not making bond for instance.  I think you are right that people have a problem with the legislatures, but police departments and DA offices use discretion all the time and that is part of the picture as well.

[michigancat]

http://www.psmag.com/politics-and-law/research-on-campaign-zero

[ednksu]

People getting locked up is pretty costly.

The New York Times just got done doing a series on the effects of people not making bond for instance.  I think you are right that people have a problem with the legislatures, but police departments and DA offices use discretion all the time and that is part of the picture as well.

To add there have been some fantastic pieces about the cycles of poverty, arrest, bail, and re-arrest and poverty, child support, arrest, back to minimum wage job where you don't make enough for your CP, to arrest, losing that job, and being stuck behind the 8 ball again.  The problem is once again many fold.  You have legislatures that don't want to amend laws for child support, because than they wouldn't be "tough on deadbeat dads."  Police who don't mind those arrests because they are easy stats, and DAs who like to have easy prosecutions/deals.  I mean we all agree the system is mumped six ways to Sunday.  But is the best place to start by ending enforcement?  Does the recent pull back of enforcement in Baltimore tell us anything (I mean truly inform us, not to be provocative). 

[michigancat]

People getting locked up is pretty costly.

The New York Times just got done doing a series on the effects of people not making bond for instance.  I think you are right that people have a problem with the legislatures, but police departments and DA offices use discretion all the time and that is part of the picture as well.

To add there have been some fantastic pieces about the cycles of poverty, arrest, bail, and re-arrest and poverty, child support, arrest, back to minimum wage job where you don't make enough for your CP, to arrest, losing that job, and being stuck behind the 8 ball again.  The problem is once again many fold.  You have legislatures that don't want to amend laws for child support, because than they wouldn't be "tough on deadbeat dads."  Police who don't mind those arrests because they are easy stats, and DAs who like to have easy prosecutions/deals.  I mean we all agree the system is mumped six ways to Sunday.  But is the best place to start by ending enforcement?  Does the recent pull back of enforcement in Baltimore tell us anything (I mean truly inform us, not to be provocative).

Ending broken window policing is a single component of a larger platform, not a "solution".

[ednksu]

People getting locked up is pretty costly.

The New York Times just got done doing a series on the effects of people not making bond for instance.  I think you are right that people have a problem with the legislatures, but police departments and DA offices use discretion all the time and that is part of the picture as well.

To add there have been some fantastic pieces about the cycles of poverty, arrest, bail, and re-arrest and poverty, child support, arrest, back to minimum wage job where you don't make enough for your CP, to arrest, losing that job, and being stuck behind the 8 ball again.  The problem is once again many fold.  You have legislatures that don't want to amend laws for child support, because than they wouldn't be "tough on deadbeat dads."  Police who don't mind those arrests because they are easy stats, and DAs who like to have easy prosecutions/deals.  I mean we all agree the system is mumped six ways to Sunday.  But is the best place to start by ending enforcement?  Does the recent pull back of enforcement in Baltimore tell us anything (I mean truly inform us, not to be provocative).

Ending broken window policing is a single component of a larger platform, not a "solution".

I'm not sure what the point of this post is.

[8manpick]

Does the recent pull back of enforcement in Baltimore tell us anything (I mean truly inform us, not to be provocative).

Hamsterdam was working great until Rawls and Burrell ruined everything.

[SdK]

Thought of something the other day. Are there any statistics on where the shooting of civilians occurs most? Like what neighborhoods. Is there a correlation between high crime areas or not? Is it possible that the cops are on edge every time they answer a call and quicker to shoot?

[CNS]

The answer to that would probably roll right back to the racial demo of those neighborhoods.  Bringing the question back to asking if cops are quicker to shoot those of a different race than themselves.

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[wetwillie]

The answer to that would probably roll right back to the racial demo of those neighborhoods.  Bringing the question back to asking if cops are quicker to shoot those of a different race than themselves.

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Cops are always firing shots at pretentious whities in prairie village so.....

[SdK]

The answer to that would probably roll right back to the racial demo of those neighborhoods.  Bringing the question back to asking if cops are quicker to shoot those of a different race than themselves.

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That's what I assumed.

[renocat]

 Reforms ain't going to happen if militants keep killing cops and going on hate fueled riots.  There are legitimate beefs that blacks have and that are caused many times condescending and double talking racist liberals.  Just read today about Buffet the Oracle of A hole bought Kraft food and is going to destroy the company laying off thousands and closing plants that employee common folk.  Keep your damn taxes and help to improve the lives of people living in dispair by giving them jobs.