Author Topic: The Scott Pruitt "If the models are all wrong" thread  (Read 429760 times)

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Offline Emo EMAW

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Re: The Scott Pruitt "If the models are all wrong" thread
« Reply #2650 on: February 20, 2017, 10:44:35 AM »
If you know the basis of the calculation used for the chart then please share it.  I'm well aware of the thermodynamics.  What I'm not aware of is how the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory perceives and might represent this data. 


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Offline Rage Against the McKee

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Re: The Scott Pruitt "If the models are all wrong" thread
« Reply #2651 on: February 20, 2017, 12:52:14 PM »
Are turbines more efficient than IC engines?  I would guess they are.

On the residential/commercial sectors, consider light:

100 units of energy go into a house, and the following occurs:

- some energy is lost as heat through the wires (2%)
- some energy creates light we can see (useful)
- some energy creates light we can't see (waste)
- some energy creates heat (waste)

I don't know what those ratios are but not way it's near 80%.

I guess heating would be approaching 90% or more efficiency.

Cooling, how do they even calculate that?  You put 100 units of energy into an A/C, you might get 200 units of cooling and 300 units of heating (rejected).  So is the efficiency 200%? 


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Why would you consider the heat part of cooling an efficiency?

Also, for a home I read it as 65% for homes and commercial. 80% for industrial.

I don't consider the heat an efficiency.  If 100 units of energy go into an A/C unit and it produces 200 units of cooling, is the efficiency 200%?  I would guess typical residential COP's are in the 2.0 range.


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You don't produce units of cooling, emo. You just remove units of heat.

Offline Emo EMAW

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Re: The Scott Pruitt "If the models are all wrong" thread
« Reply #2652 on: February 20, 2017, 01:52:09 PM »
Well if you remove 200 units of heat for only 100 units of electricity...

Offline Rage Against the McKee

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Re: The Scott Pruitt "If the models are all wrong" thread
« Reply #2653 on: February 20, 2017, 02:29:33 PM »
Well if you remove 200 units of heat for only 100 units of electricity...

The energy efficiency ratio is calculated by dividing output cooling energy (BTU) by input electrical energy (W*hr).

Offline Emo EMAW

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Re: The Scott Pruitt "If the models are all wrong" thread
« Reply #2654 on: February 20, 2017, 02:30:36 PM »
So like 200 percent.  Thanks.  Seems weird.

Offline sys

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Re: The Scott Pruitt "If the models are all wrong" thread
« Reply #2655 on: February 20, 2017, 02:38:33 PM »
emo, what are you doing?
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

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Re: The Scott Pruitt "If the models are all wrong" thread
« Reply #2656 on: February 20, 2017, 02:46:18 PM »
The coefficient of performance  for a cyclic refrigerator is the heat extracted divided by the work done.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_efficiency
« Last Edit: February 20, 2017, 03:02:03 PM by Chingon »

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Re: The Scott Pruitt "If the models are all wrong" thread
« Reply #2657 on: February 20, 2017, 03:07:58 PM »
Efficiency is not exactly the right term to use with a heat pump.

Offline cfbandyman

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Re: The Scott Pruitt "If the models are all wrong" thread
« Reply #2658 on: February 20, 2017, 03:09:35 PM »
The coefficient of performance  for a cyclic refrigerator is the heat extracted divided by the work done.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_efficiency

Was just looking that up. He's thinking of COP, not efficiency.

Quote
The reason for not using the term 'efficiency' is that the coefficient of performance can often be greater than 100%. Since these devices are moving heat, not creating it, the amount of heat they move can be greater than the input work. Therefore, heat pumps can be a more efficient way of heating than simply converting the input work into heat, as in an electric heater or furnace.
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Re: The Scott Pruitt "If the models are all wrong" thread
« Reply #2660 on: February 20, 2017, 03:15:41 PM »
After reading all of the last ~page or so and running the numbers I agree with everyone's calculations ITT

Offline Gooch

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Re: The Scott Pruitt "If the models are all wrong" thread
« Reply #2661 on: February 20, 2017, 03:46:47 PM »
I'm just hoping that Mrs. Gooch does enough jersey/shirt mod'ing for Trim and Payton that we build up enough credit for some free legal help. We will probably have to sue the face off my HOA when they inevitably try to block the solar panels we are going to put on next year.

Offline sonofdaxjones

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Re: The Scott Pruitt "If the models are all wrong" thread
« Reply #2662 on: February 20, 2017, 06:08:57 PM »
Good to see the green movement really taking hold in the succession state.   People putting away their cars, going green, loving Mother Earth. 

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/b87e94f762d34087ba8f32be8e674eef/traffic-study-ranks-los-angeles-worlds-most-clogged-city



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Re: The Scott Pruitt "If the models are all wrong" thread
« Reply #2663 on: February 20, 2017, 06:24:40 PM »
I'm just hoping that Mrs. Gooch does enough jersey/shirt mod'ing for Trim and Payton that we build up enough credit for some free legal help. We will probably have to sue the face off my HOA when they inevitably try to block the solar panels we are going to put on next year.

Sign up now and you could probably get the solarcity roof shingles that look like real shingles but are solar panels.

http://www.solarcity.com/residential/solar-roof
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Offline Emo EMAW

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Re: The Scott Pruitt "If the models are all wrong" thread
« Reply #2664 on: February 20, 2017, 08:43:07 PM »
emo, what are you doing?

I'm trying to understand the basis for the chart, which I think is one of the most interesting charts I've ever seen.

Offline Emo EMAW

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Re: The Scott Pruitt "If the models are all wrong" thread
« Reply #2665 on: February 20, 2017, 08:44:33 PM »
The coefficient of performance  for a cyclic refrigerator is the heat extracted divided by the work done.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_efficiency

Was just looking that up. He's thinking of COP, not efficiency.

Quote
The reason for not using the term 'efficiency' is that the coefficient of performance can often be greater than 100%. Since these devices are moving heat, not creating it, the amount of heat they move can be greater than the input work. Therefore, heat pumps can be a more efficient way of heating than simply converting the input work into heat, as in an electric heater or furnace.

I said COP, but the chart references efficiency, hence my curiosity in the basis for the calculation considering that HVAC is probably the largest consumer of electricity in a home.

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Re: The Scott Pruitt "If the models are all wrong" thread
« Reply #2666 on: February 20, 2017, 08:57:49 PM »
emo, what are you doing?

I'm trying to understand the basis for the chart, which I think is one of the most interesting charts I've ever seen.

i meant the 200% stuff, specifically.
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

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Re: The Scott Pruitt "If the models are all wrong" thread
« Reply #2667 on: February 20, 2017, 09:14:43 PM »
emo, what are you doing?

I'm trying to understand the basis for the chart, which I think is one of the most interesting charts I've ever seen.

i meant the 200% stuff, specifically.

Well, I was speculating that the chart may have used something like A/C efficiency = units of cooling / units of electricity.  I assumed the COPcooling of a residential unit to be around 2.0. 

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Re: The Scott Pruitt "If the models are all wrong" thread
« Reply #2668 on: February 21, 2017, 08:16:49 AM »
I'm just hoping that Mrs. Gooch does enough jersey/shirt mod'ing for Trim and Payton that we build up enough credit for some free legal help. We will probably have to sue the face off my HOA when they inevitably try to block the solar panels we are going to put on next year.

Sign up now and you could probably get the solarcity roof shingles that look like real shingles but are solar panels.

http://www.solarcity.com/residential/solar-roof
Too late. But something along those lines that will be our replacement roof in about 15 years.

Offline camKSU

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Re: The Scott Pruitt "If the models are all wrong" thread
« Reply #2669 on: February 22, 2017, 11:31:28 AM »
As suspected and cautioned it has now been confirmed that Pruitt is/was a Koch brother stooge for oil and gas... the very industry he is now tasked with regulating and policing.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/22/us/politics/scott-pruitt-environmental-protection-agency.html?_r=0

Really draining the swamp and getting the "best" people... I don't know why I even questioned their motives.
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Re: The Scott Pruitt "If the models are all wrong" thread
« Reply #2670 on: February 22, 2017, 01:52:20 PM »

The Kochs :curse:

Pretty much anyone with a brain acknowledges the epa is out of control. For eff's sake you can't even park at pillsbury anymore.
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Offline EMAWican

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Re: The Scott Pruitt "If the models are all wrong" thread
« Reply #2671 on: February 22, 2017, 02:01:29 PM »
Pruitt is vehemently 100% against sue and settle, which I would hope everyone in this thread would support.

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Re: The Scott Pruitt "If the models are all wrong" thread
« Reply #2672 on: February 22, 2017, 03:11:39 PM »
Pretty much anyone with a brain acknowledges the epa is out of control. For eff's sake you can't even park at pillsbury anymore.

Pruitt is vehemently 100% against sue and settle, which I would hope everyone in this thread would support.

Huh... Seems pretty hypocritical to be against "sue and settle" but be ok with ALEC, koch/heritage, etc. COLUSION with Pruitt and the republicans. Sounds like Sierra and NRDC are fighting "fire with fire" to achieve their desired goals (minimizing the use and impact of fossil fuels)... Then again that's par for the course with the trumpeters and GOP.

And as to the baseless assertion that the EPA is "out of control", get off infowars, breitbart and dailymail and find any reasonable third-party to back up that claim and I will gladly take a look. Otherwise, your alt-right koch funded agenda has no place in this discussion.


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Offline EMAWican

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Re: The Scott Pruitt "If the models are all wrong" thread
« Reply #2673 on: February 22, 2017, 03:30:21 PM »
Pretty much anyone with a brain acknowledges the epa is out of control. For eff's sake you can't even park at pillsbury anymore.

Pruitt is vehemently 100% against sue and settle, which I would hope everyone in this thread would support.

Huh... Seems pretty hypocritical to be against "sue and settle" but be ok with ALEC, koch/heritage, etc. COLUSION with Pruitt and the republicans. Sounds like Sierra and NRDC are fighting "fire with fire" to achieve their desired goals (minimizing the use and impact of fossil fuels)... Then again that's par for the course with the trumpeters and GOP.

And as to the baseless assertion that the EPA is "out of control", get off infowars, breitbart and dailymail and find any reasonable third-party to back up that claim and I will gladly take a look. Otherwise, your alt-right koch funded agenda has no place in this discussion.

You probably didn't even know about sue and settle until you Googled it. Interesting that this Googling didn't back you up a step or two. I hope you comprehend that there's a difference between a federal agency colluding with environmental groups via sue and settle that brings about illegal change for almost every single American versus discussion between a political party and a guy who happened to become the head of the EPA. Are you familiar with the SSM rule that they're talking about in that article? The new regs stipulate that flares, for example, can't have startup, shutdown, or malfunction events anymore. How realistic.

Also, if you've paid attention to this thread over the years, I've brought up several "out of control" examples of the EPA becoming a lawyer-controlled activist group in the last decade. I can probably provide several hundred examples if asked.

There's something fundamentally wrong about a federal agency backed by the law that can show up at a facility with the presumption that the facility is hiding something and doing something wrong. In a courtroom it's innocent until proven guilty, with the EPA it's "these guys are doing something illegal and killing people and we're gonna find it."

Remember, I am not against the EPA, just the EPA under Obama.

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Re: The Scott Pruitt "If the models are all wrong" thread
« Reply #2674 on: February 22, 2017, 03:41:26 PM »
Reg OOOOa is rough ridin' insane. But it goes beyond the epa, the usda requires an environmental survey before it will subrogate a mortgage to develop minerals. That's batshit. The BLM has a morotorium on fracking. That's batshit. It's a thinly-veiled assault on the energy industry. These regs are justified by anecdotes and conjecture, and are entirely improper under the rule making requirements, but for "sue and settle" in some instances. See the USFWS prairie chicken listing litigation for a case study.
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