Is Planned Hamburger more important than the entire good of America?

[DQ12]

Some people just want a small government that only regulates people to protect other people from threats.

Another example of making a pro-choice assumption to rebut a pro-life argument.  If you view unborn babies as people, then you are most certainly trying to protect people from threats by advocating to eliminate abortion.

Do you view a woman who has had an abortion as a threat to anyone else? I could see how she might be a threat to future unborn people that she may conceive down the line, but protecting people who might never even exist doesn't make much sense to me.

Not necessarily.  I concede that a woman who has an abortion may very well never have another, nor even do anything wrong ever again in her lifetime.

Are you under the assumption that the *only* reason people are jailed or otherwise punished is to prevent them from committing an identical transgression in the future?

[Rage Against the McKee]

Some people just want a small government that only regulates people to protect other people from threats.

Another example of making a pro-choice assumption to rebut a pro-life argument.  If you view unborn babies as people, then you are most certainly trying to protect people from threats by advocating to eliminate abortion.

Do you view a woman who has had an abortion as a threat to anyone else? I could see how she might be a threat to future unborn people that she may conceive down the line, but protecting people who might never even exist doesn't make much sense to me.

Not necessarily.  I concede that a woman who has an abortion may very well never have another, nor even do anything wrong ever again in her lifetime.

Are you under the assumption that the *only* reason people are jailed or otherwise punished is to prevent them from committing an identical transgression in the future?

No, that is just how I believe it should be.

[Mrs. Gooch]

...and have tremendous value simply because they are human. therefore to argue that it is a net positive for you to have less of them around is overshadowed by their value given to them by God himself.

So you are saying the more people the better no matter what?

[SdK]

Because just because it's provided, doesn't mean it will be used. Probably true for plan be as well. I'd hope that if abortion wasn't an option more people would use plan b.

My British mate swears by Plan A: Don't cum in her front bum.

AND IF YA DON'T KNOW, NOW YA KNOW....PREGGO

Lol to both. It's not a hard concept. But some people just refuse.

[catastrophe]

Some people just want a small government that only regulates people to protect other people from threats.

Another example of making a pro-choice assumption to rebut a pro-life argument.  If you view unborn babies as people, then you are most certainly trying to protect people from threats by advocating to eliminate abortion.

Do you view a woman who has had an abortion as a threat to anyone else? I could see how she might be a threat to future unborn people that she may conceive down the line, but protecting people who might never even exist doesn't make much sense to me.

Did you know murderers have some of the lowest recidivism rates of all criminals because the crime often involves someone they were close to and was not at all premeditated?  For most murderers there is actually very little reason to think they would kill someone else, but this is really getting into the function of the penal system which is a very interesting debate but entirely separate from what we're talking about here.  I'm talking about whether something should be made illegal, not what the punishment should be for it.

[Rage Against the McKee]

Some people just want a small government that only regulates people to protect other people from threats.

Another example of making a pro-choice assumption to rebut a pro-life argument.  If you view unborn babies as people, then you are most certainly trying to protect people from threats by advocating to eliminate abortion.

Do you view a woman who has had an abortion as a threat to anyone else? I could see how she might be a threat to future unborn people that she may conceive down the line, but protecting people who might never even exist doesn't make much sense to me.

Did you know murderers have some of the lowest recidivism rates of all criminals because the crime often involves someone they were close to and was not at all premeditated?  For most murderers there is actually very little reason to think they would kill someone else, but this is really getting into the function of the penal system which is a very interesting debate but entirely separate from what we're talking about here.  I'm talking about whether something should be made illegal, not what the punishment should be for it.

I would fully support lower sentences for murderers if you have good data to support it.

If something is illegal, there sort of has to be a punishment for it. What would you suggest?

[catastrophe]

1. But you still think murder should be illegal, which is important.

2. If you were to make abortion illegal, the simplest punishment is to revoke the license of any doctor performing the abortion and to fine a woman who has one (at a not ridiculous but still high enough amount to where people are like, "yea, I should really just buy birth control if i don't want to have a baby").  The money paid in fines would go to fund local adoption agencies.

I would also support some kind of mandatory birth control education.  I'm actually not a big fan of jail under most circumstances because I think it breeds more crime than it protects the public from.

[Rage Against the McKee]

1. But you still think murder should be illegal, which is important.

2. If you were to make abortion illegal, the simplest punishment is to revoke the license of any doctor performing the abortion and to fine a woman who has one (at a high enough amount to where people are like, "yea, I should really just buy birth control if i don't want to have a baby").  I would also support some kind of mandatory birth control education.  I'm actually not a big fan of jail under most circumstances because I think it breeds more crime than it protects the public from.

1. Yeah, I'm not that comfortable being around a murderer because I know if I piss him/her off, I'm likely to get murdered myself. I don't feel that way about women who have had an abortion in the past.

2. So fines for the wealthy, jail for the poor?

[Mrs. Gooch]

This book I read had a punishment for abortion which was dying the skin of the woman red so everyone would know she had had an abortion and then making her go to some classes where she had to pretend a doll was her aborted child. Do you guys think those are the appropriate punishments for abortion?

[DQ12]

This book I read had a punishment for abortion which was dying the skin of the woman red so everyone would know she had had an abortion and then making her go to some classes where she had to pretend a doll was her aborted child. Do you guys think those are the appropriate punishments for abortion?

I don't think that's an appropriate punishment for anything.

[catastrophe]

1. But you still think murder should be illegal, which is important.

2. If you were to make abortion illegal, the simplest punishment is to revoke the license of any doctor performing the abortion and to fine a woman who has one (at a high enough amount to where people are like, "yea, I should really just buy birth control if i don't want to have a baby").  I would also support some kind of mandatory birth control education.  I'm actually not a big fan of jail under most circumstances because I think it breeds more crime than it protects the public from.

1. Yeah, I'm not that comfortable being around a murderer because I know if I piss him/her off, I'm likely to get murdered myself. I don't feel that way about women who have had an abortion in the past.

2. So fines for the wealthy, jail for the poor?

Ok, so your concept of a penal system is that it should be illegal only if it is a threat to you. We disagree on that (for example, I think hate crimes should be punished even though I am not a minority myself), but I think you still follow my basic ideas here.

You can easily build in an alternative if you're unable to pay the fine. The threat to doctors would be the most impactful part of the punishment by far. I'd support community service in lieu of a fine.

[catastrophe]

This book I read had a punishment for abortion which was dying the skin of the woman red so everyone would know she had had an abortion and then making her go to some classes where she had to pretend a doll was her aborted child. Do you guys think those are the appropriate punishments for abortion?

I don't think that's an appropriate punishment for anything.

What he said. What kind of books do you read?

[Spracne]

Because just because it's provided, doesn't mean it will be used. Probably true for plan be as well. I'd hope that if abortion wasn't an option more people would use plan b.

My British mate swears by Plan A: Don't cum in her front bum.

AND IF YA DON'T KNOW, NOW YA KNOW....PREGGO

Lol to both. It's not a hard concept. But some people just refuse.

Such a blunder. Sometimes it makes me wonder why I even bring the thunder...

[SdK]

Women shaming ones it appears
 :(

[Rage Against the McKee]

1. But you still think murder should be illegal, which is important.

2. If you were to make abortion illegal, the simplest punishment is to revoke the license of any doctor performing the abortion and to fine a woman who has one (at a high enough amount to where people are like, "yea, I should really just buy birth control if i don't want to have a baby").  I would also support some kind of mandatory birth control education.  I'm actually not a big fan of jail under most circumstances because I think it breeds more crime than it protects the public from.

1. Yeah, I'm not that comfortable being around a murderer because I know if I piss him/her off, I'm likely to get murdered myself. I don't feel that way about women who have had an abortion in the past.

2. So fines for the wealthy, jail for the poor?

Ok, so your concept of a penal system is that it should be illegal only if it is a threat to you. We disagree on that (for example, I think hate crimes should be punished even though I am not a minority myself), but I think you still follow my basic ideas here.

You can easily build in an alternative if you're unable to pay the fine. The threat to doctors would be the most impactful part of the punishment by far. I'd support community service in lieu of a fine.

It should be illegal if it creates a threat to me or others. I don't support hate crime legislation, but that has nothing to do with not being a minority myself.

[Mrs. Gooch]

Women shaming ones it appears
 :(

Are your referring to the book? It was a very good book set in a future extreme pro-life dystopia.


Do you consider the Scarlet Letter a women shaming book, too?

[SdK]

Women shaming ones it appears
 :(

Are your referring to the book? It was a very good book set in a future extreme pro-life dystopia.


Do you consider the Scarlet Letter a women shaming book, too?

I wish kidding. Lolita is one of my favorite books. And we all knows it's content. I've never read scarlet letter.

[SdK]

I'll have to check that book out. 1984 is another book I really enjoyed. Even though it really made me sad at the end, but that added to its greatness.

[catastrophe]

1. But you still think murder should be illegal, which is important.

2. If you were to make abortion illegal, the simplest punishment is to revoke the license of any doctor performing the abortion and to fine a woman who has one (at a high enough amount to where people are like, "yea, I should really just buy birth control if i don't want to have a baby").  I would also support some kind of mandatory birth control education.  I'm actually not a big fan of jail under most circumstances because I think it breeds more crime than it protects the public from.

1. Yeah, I'm not that comfortable being around a murderer because I know if I piss him/her off, I'm likely to get murdered myself. I don't feel that way about women who have had an abortion in the past.

2. So fines for the wealthy, jail for the poor?

Ok, so your concept of a penal system is that it should be illegal only if it is a threat to you. We disagree on that (for example, I think hate crimes should be punished even though I am not a minority myself), but I think you still follow my basic ideas here.

You can easily build in an alternative if you're unable to pay the fine. The threat to doctors would be the most impactful part of the punishment by far. I'd support community service in lieu of a fine.

It should be illegal if it creates a threat to me or others. I don't support hate crime legislation, but that has nothing to do with not being a minority myself.

Well then we're right back where we started.  If you consider unborn babies "others" (which is a premise I admit you have to grant me) then I'd say the threat to "others" via those who commit abortions is at least as great as it is among those who commit homicide.  It sounds to me like you just don't feel threatened because you know you could never be a victim.

[Rage Against the McKee]

1. But you still think murder should be illegal, which is important.

2. If you were to make abortion illegal, the simplest punishment is to revoke the license of any doctor performing the abortion and to fine a woman who has one (at a high enough amount to where people are like, "yea, I should really just buy birth control if i don't want to have a baby").  I would also support some kind of mandatory birth control education.  I'm actually not a big fan of jail under most circumstances because I think it breeds more crime than it protects the public from.

1. Yeah, I'm not that comfortable being around a murderer because I know if I piss him/her off, I'm likely to get murdered myself. I don't feel that way about women who have had an abortion in the past.

2. So fines for the wealthy, jail for the poor?

Ok, so your concept of a penal system is that it should be illegal only if it is a threat to you. We disagree on that (for example, I think hate crimes should be punished even though I am not a minority myself), but I think you still follow my basic ideas here.

You can easily build in an alternative if you're unable to pay the fine. The threat to doctors would be the most impactful part of the punishment by far. I'd support community service in lieu of a fine.

It should be illegal if it creates a threat to me or others. I don't support hate crime legislation, but that has nothing to do with not being a minority myself.

Well then we're right back where we started.  If you consider unborn babies "others" (which is a premise I admit you have to grant me) then I'd say the threat to "others" via those who commit abortions is at least as great as it is among those who commit homicide.  It sounds to me like you just don't feel threatened because you know you could never be a victim.

Unborn or unconceived? I don't consider people who haven't been conceived yet to be others.

[catastrophe]

So in a Rage justice system, murderers are only in jail because there are more people available to be murdered? I guess that means if a woman had an illegal abortion then she should not be punished until she conceives another child? Or if you commit perjury then you shouldn't be punished until you are under oath again?

[Emo EMAW]

Not trying to distract, or come up with a side debate, but Emo, do you believe everyone is created equal?

No bearing on the debate. Just curious.

I believe for the most part they are, in the eyes of the government.  Of course we have the justice system and courts to make right wrongs we may have in place now. 

[Rage Against the McKee]

So in a Rage justice system, murderers are only in jail because there are more people available to be murdered? I guess that means if a woman had an illegal abortion then she should not be punished until she conceives another child? Or if you commit perjury then you shouldn't be punished until you are under oath again?

I wouldn't punish the mother at all because I don't see a good justification for government to get involved with abortion. The abortion itself should be punishment enough, really.

Jail for perjury is also ridiculous. Jail should be for truly dangerous people. Nobody else should ever be in jail for any reason.

[K-S-U-Wildcats!]

So in a Rage justice system, murderers are only in jail because there are more people available to be murdered? I guess that means if a woman had an illegal abortion then she should not be punished until she conceives another child? Or if you commit perjury then you shouldn't be punished until you are under oath again?

I wouldn't punish the mother at all because I don't see a good justification for government to get involved with abortion. The abortion itself should be punishment enough, really.

Jail for perjury is also ridiculous. Jail should be for truly dangerous people. Nobody else should ever be in jail for any reason.

Perjury undermines our entire justice system. One important purpose of punishment is to deter. It is important that we defer something as destructive to justice as perjury.

[catastrophe]

(@Rage) We're talking about any punishment, though. And it sounds like your views on abortion are not rooted in a belief that we should only punish those who are threats to others, but rather in your opinion that the government should not get involved in abortions, regardless of who is affected. And you are of course entitled to that opinion.