Author Topic: kstate offense question  (Read 2404 times)

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Offline Dr Rick Daris

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kstate offense question
« on: October 15, 2012, 02:30:16 PM »
seems like we kind of score when we need to/get behind and then shut it down when we don't/are ahead.

this last game was a good example. we are leading the whole first half. it was low scoring/kind of boring. isu then scores a touchdown to go ahead with 4:37 left. four plays and 69 yards later we retake the lead. boom. i mean wtf though? it seems like that type of thing has happened a lot in the last year and a half. is this in my head? does this make any sense to anyone? just seems like it's happened so much. like, let's say iowa state fumbled that ball on a center/qb exchange in stead of scoring a touchdown there...i mean, no way to take it 70 yards in four plays then, right? am i losing my marbles? we prob would've picked up one first down, ate up three minutes of clock and then punted. right?


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Offline Sandstone Outcropping

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Re: kstate offense question
« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2012, 02:31:32 PM »
 :billdance:

Offline Sandstone Outcropping

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Re: kstate offense question
« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2012, 02:35:33 PM »
Nice to have the flexibility to score now or score later, IMHO.

Offline Shacks

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Re: kstate offense question
« Reply #3 on: October 15, 2012, 02:42:35 PM »
This isn't just a K-State thing, this is a universal thing.  When a team has nothing to lose, they can get riskier with the playcalling and call plays they wouldn't normally call in that situation.  We had nothing to lose because it was almost halftime - didn't have to worry about sustaining a long drive or holding on to the ball for a long time because no matter what we did with the ball, it was going to be halftime in about a minute and a half.  The play we normally wouldn't call in that situation - the first play of a drive - was the big pass to Lockett.  For the entire first half Iowa State's defense has been trying to stop our ground game, and boom, we hit them with a bomb when they weren't sure whether we would just kill the clock or try to do something and caught them off guard (also good execution by Klein, Lockett and the line).

TLDR: Can't lose situations enable more unconventional feast or famine play calling that can surprise a defense, especially if they've been facing a different type of offense up to that point in the game

Offline cvmcat

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Re: kstate offense question
« Reply #4 on: October 15, 2012, 02:46:46 PM »
I still think we're just messing with 'em.  Keep it close, give them hope, rip their hearts out, go home with another W.   :billdance:

Offline ChiComCat

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Re: kstate offense question
« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2012, 02:51:47 PM »
I think we call more aggressively but not particularly risky.  I think Snyder's goal is to shorten the game when we have the lead.  Running a lot, though not necessarily focused on scoring.  When we're behind, we open the playbook a little more and attack a little more. 

Scenario:  We're up by 4 and its 3rd and 5 with 8 minutes left in the 4th at our own 40.  Snyder is more likely to call a run play with say, 50% chance of a first and 40 seconds off the clock regardless than a pass play with 60% chance of first and 40% chance of 5 seconds off the clock.

Offline RightMeow

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Re: kstate offense question
« Reply #6 on: October 15, 2012, 03:01:44 PM »
Agree with ChiCat and also think the Scheme Dr is using as few of his plays as possible in order to beat the next opponent.  Not that our offense needs any advantage over CoalMinerAggy's defense.
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Offline yosh

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Re: kstate offense question
« Reply #7 on: October 15, 2012, 06:52:37 PM »
Yes.  Kleins as good of a counter puncher as we've ever had.  Never let's teams get momentum.  "Intangible" I guess.

Offline kso_FAN

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kstate offense question
« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2012, 07:04:18 PM »
I think we call more aggressively but not particularly risky.  I think Snyder's goal is to shorten the game when we have the lead.  Running a lot, though not necessarily focused on scoring.  When we're behind, we open the playbook a little more and attack a little more. 

Scenario:  We're up by 4 and its 3rd and 5 with 8 minutes left in the 4th at our own 40.  Snyder is more likely to call a run play with say, 50% chance of a first and 40 seconds off the clock regardless than a pass play with 60% chance of first and 40% chance of 5 seconds off the clock.

Yes, Snyder will default to the percentages in situations like that. But we still run a lot of stuff with a ton of personnel. It's cliche, but its also fair to say "the other team has scholarship players too", especially in Big 12 play this year. To ISU's credit, they are sound and they tackle well, which turned plays that would've been big plays in other games into short gains.

Offline 8manpick

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Re: Re: kstate offense question
« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2012, 07:05:03 PM »
I think we call more aggressively but not particularly risky.  I think Snyder's goal is to shorten the game when we have the lead.  Running a lot, though not necessarily focused on scoring.  When we're behind, we open the playbook a little more and attack a little more. 

Scenario:  We're up by 4 and its 3rd and 5 with 8 minutes left in the 4th at our own 40.  Snyder is more likely to call a run play with say, 50% chance of a first and 40 seconds off the clock regardless than a pass play with 60% chance of first and 40% chance of 5 seconds off the clock.

I feel like the last drive of the OU game disagrees with this
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Offline Stevesie60

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Re: kstate offense question
« Reply #10 on: October 15, 2012, 07:12:40 PM »
My K-State Offense Question: Do we pass it more against WVU even if it's a pretty close game knowing their secondary is pretty terrible?

Offline SdK

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Re: kstate offense question
« Reply #11 on: October 15, 2012, 07:16:35 PM »
I feel like playing a run first team that CAN pass like KSU is the worst thing possible for WVU's defense.

Offline Dr Rick Daris

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Re: kstate offense question
« Reply #12 on: October 15, 2012, 07:21:58 PM »
i'm not sure how to explain it, but i feel like it's more complicated then just saying "kstate calls higher risk/higher reward plays when they're down and lower risk plays when they're up." like much more complicated than that.


Offline The Manhatter

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Re: kstate offense question
« Reply #13 on: October 16, 2012, 12:00:46 AM »
prior to the season during media day Dimel talked about aTm being stupid and taking unnecessary risks while ahead of Texas.  He stated that we don't agree with that philosophy. 

Basically, if you give up the lead then get it back.  If you are in the lead then don't do anything foolish to give it up. 
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Academic schools are synonymous for being rich, powerful and exclusive, three things Kansas State is not.

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Offline ednksu

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Re: kstate offense question
« Reply #14 on: October 16, 2012, 12:54:21 AM »
i'm not sure how to explain it, but i feel like it's more complicated then just saying "kstate calls higher risk/higher reward plays when they're down and lower risk plays when they're up." like much more complicated than that.
I think its spot on that we are more conservative.  I mean how many times did we do a boot leg with options to a RB, TE pass, or CK keep against ISU?  We saw that a few times against OU, and a couple times against KU. 

I think its geared to what we can get easily, with the most ball security, using the most clock, while maximizing potential for gains.
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Offline stunted

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Re: kstate offense question
« Reply #15 on: October 16, 2012, 11:20:07 AM »
I think we call more aggressively but not particularly risky.  I think Snyder's goal is to shorten the game when we have the lead.  Running a lot, though not necessarily focused on scoring.  When we're behind, we open the playbook a little more and attack a little more. 

Scenario:  We're up by 4 and its 3rd and 5 with 8 minutes left in the 4th at our own 40.  Snyder is more likely to call a run play with say, 50% chance of a first and 40 seconds off the clock regardless than a pass play with 60% chance of first and 40% chance of 5 seconds off the clock.

Yes, Snyder will default to the percentages in situations like that. But we still run a lot of stuff with a ton of personnel. It's cliche, but its also fair to say "the other team has scholarship players too", especially in Big 12 play this year. To ISU's credit, they are sound and they tackle well, which turned plays that would've been big plays in other games into short gains.

I'm always curious to know how our scheming compares to other teams scheming.

Offline yoEMAW

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Re: kstate offense question
« Reply #16 on: October 16, 2012, 11:23:38 AM »
i'm not sure how to explain it, but i feel like it's more complicated then just saying "kstate calls higher risk/higher reward plays when they're down and lower risk plays when they're up." like much more complicated than that.

Here's a term I've heard thrown around that may or may not apply here..."throttle control."

Offline ChiComCat

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Re: kstate offense question
« Reply #17 on: October 16, 2012, 11:37:27 AM »
I think we call more aggressively but not particularly risky.  I think Snyder's goal is to shorten the game when we have the lead.  Running a lot, though not necessarily focused on scoring.  When we're behind, we open the playbook a little more and attack a little more. 

Scenario:  We're up by 4 and its 3rd and 5 with 8 minutes left in the 4th at our own 40.  Snyder is more likely to call a run play with say, 50% chance of a first and 40 seconds off the clock regardless than a pass play with 60% chance of first and 40% chance of 5 seconds off the clock.

I feel like the last drive of the OU game disagrees with this

That was against OU where if we don't get a first, time doesnt matter and we're going to lose.  OU is the exception to a number of rules

Offline mocat

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Re: kstate offense question
« Reply #18 on: October 16, 2012, 11:46:09 AM »
I think we call more aggressively but not particularly risky.  I think Snyder's goal is to shorten the game when we have the lead.  Running a lot, though not necessarily focused on scoring.  When we're behind, we open the playbook a little more and attack a little more. 

Scenario:  We're up by 4 and its 3rd and 5 with 8 minutes left in the 4th at our own 40.  Snyder is more likely to call a run play with say, 50% chance of a first and 40 seconds off the clock regardless than a pass play with 60% chance of first and 40% chance of 5 seconds off the clock.

I feel like the last drive of the OU game disagrees with this

That was against OU where if we don't get a first, time doesnt matter and we're going to lose.  OU is the exception to a number of rules

Yeah and passing still was the best % chance of succeeding in that instance as well. we had like 3rd and 12's, not 3rd and 4's

Offline kso_FAN

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Re: kstate offense question
« Reply #19 on: October 16, 2012, 11:49:35 AM »
I think we call more aggressively but not particularly risky.  I think Snyder's goal is to shorten the game when we have the lead.  Running a lot, though not necessarily focused on scoring.  When we're behind, we open the playbook a little more and attack a little more. 

Scenario:  We're up by 4 and its 3rd and 5 with 8 minutes left in the 4th at our own 40.  Snyder is more likely to call a run play with say, 50% chance of a first and 40 seconds off the clock regardless than a pass play with 60% chance of first and 40% chance of 5 seconds off the clock.

I feel like the last drive of the OU game disagrees with this

That was against OU where if we don't get a first, time doesnt matter and we're going to lose.  OU is the exception to a number of rules

On OU's last drive they had scored in a little over 3 minutes. I think Snyder truly believed as long as we made it a 6 point game and left them less 5 minutes we'd be in good shape against ISU.

That said, we were really trying to score a touchdown late in the game vs ISU. We ran a read play from a completely different formation than we had run it on 1st and 10 from the 15. Then we ran a roll out pass that had previously gained 11 yards from the Miller time formation on 2nd down. Then on 3rd down we ran QB lead/power with Collin from the same formation that had gained 12 and 8 yards earlier in the same drive. ISU just defended all 3 of those plays extremely well.

Offline 8manpick

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Re: kstate offense question
« Reply #20 on: October 16, 2012, 12:00:40 PM »
I think we call more aggressively but not particularly risky.  I think Snyder's goal is to shorten the game when we have the lead.  Running a lot, though not necessarily focused on scoring.  When we're behind, we open the playbook a little more and attack a little more. 

Scenario:  We're up by 4 and its 3rd and 5 with 8 minutes left in the 4th at our own 40.  Snyder is more likely to call a run play with say, 50% chance of a first and 40 seconds off the clock regardless than a pass play with 60% chance of first and 40% chance of 5 seconds off the clock.

I feel like the last drive of the OU game disagrees with this

That was against OU where if we don't get a first, time doesnt matter and we're going to lose.  OU is the exception to a number of rules

Yeah and passing still was the best % chance of succeeding in that instance as well. we had like 3rd and 12's, not 3rd and 4's

Yeah, the first 3rd down is obviously a passing situation, but the 2nd and 11 with 3:30 left wasn't. One OU timeout, and we throw an incomplete pass that stopped the clock.

Also, I just re-watched that last drive to make sure I knew what happened.  It sure is a great time to be a Wildcat football fan, guys! Soak it all in.
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Offline kso_FAN

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Re: kstate offense question
« Reply #21 on: October 16, 2012, 12:12:46 PM »
Plus OU had gotten very little pressure on us in that game. ISU constantly got pressure, and while Klein often made them pay with scrambles, it was riskier to drop back and throw. Still, on our last drive for the FG against ISU we still went 4 wide and completed passes to Lockett and Harper for 1st downs.

Offline Domino

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Re: kstate offense question
« Reply #22 on: October 16, 2012, 11:37:41 PM »
Plus OU had gotten very little pressure on us in that game. ISU constantly got pressure, and while Klein often made them pay with scrambles, it was riskier to drop back and throw. Still, on our last drive for the FG against ISU we still went 4 wide and completed passes to Lockett and Harper for 1st downs.

Doesn't the issue of pressure come down to how teams want to deal with Klein? Seemed that in the OU game, Oklahoma wanted it's DEs to stay near the line of scrimmage, and not do any outside rushes. Iowa State had their DEs rush around the edge, and seemed to have mixed results. They did get a couple of sacks, but also left holes that Klein ran through, most noticeably on his 3rd TD run.

Offline kso_FAN

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Re: kstate offense question
« Reply #23 on: October 17, 2012, 07:39:25 AM »
Plus OU had gotten very little pressure on us in that game. ISU constantly got pressure, and while Klein often made them pay with scrambles, it was riskier to drop back and throw. Still, on our last drive for the FG against ISU we still went 4 wide and completed passes to Lockett and Harper for 1st downs.

Doesn't the issue of pressure come down to how teams want to deal with Klein? Seemed that in the OU game, Oklahoma wanted it's DEs to stay near the line of scrimmage, and not do any outside rushes. Iowa State had their DEs rush around the edge, and seemed to have mixed results. They did get a couple of sacks, but also left holes that Klein ran through, most noticeably on his 3rd TD run.

Yeah, that was what I was getting at, but probably didn't state it very well. I think most teams have used a "controlled rush" in passing situations to keep Klein in the pocket; ISU used the opposite approach and I think we made them pay for it.