Author Topic: Is it really racism...  (Read 32607 times)

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Online michigancat

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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #125 on: May 24, 2018, 04:18:12 PM »
Ok, I think I'm with you:  you're saying that we should consider the effect of a bad act (along with actor's intent, i assume) on the victims when assigning moral blame to the actor.  That's a reasonable viewpoint and one I think I agree with. 

So applying that reasoning to the original situation, we have "white people demanding their kids marry white people inflicts greater damage to minorities than the damage done to white people (and other minorities) when a minority demands their kids marry a member of their race."  Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that's your point. 

that's pretty much accurate



But I'm still not convinced that there's any meaningful difference between the relative damage done.  Why does it cause more harm when a white person demands his daughter marry a white person than when a black person demands his daughter marry a black person?

I could better answer this if you would define what meaningful damage you see being done in the first place.


but I'll still take a stab at it:

I think the biggest reason is difference in power/status. In theory, a healthy adult male could kill an elderly woman with a punch. An elderly woman could not kill a healthy adult male with a punch. (in theory.) The white person is trying to exclude blacks from the privileged status whites enjoy in society - the black person cannot exclude the white person from the same elevated status. Same "crimes", different damages.

Online michigancat

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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #126 on: May 24, 2018, 04:18:50 PM »
So if an old lady punches a guy but she is weak and causes no damage, then that's ok?

not OK, but not as bad as an adult male punching a woman and causing severe damage.

Offline sys

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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #127 on: May 24, 2018, 04:33:47 PM »
I'll still take a stab at it:

I think the biggest reason is difference in power/status. In theory, a healthy adult male could kill an elderly woman with a punch. An elderly woman could not kill a healthy adult male with a punch. (in theory.) The white person is trying to exclude blacks from the privileged status whites enjoy in society - the black person cannot exclude the white person from the same elevated status. Same "crimes", different damages.

is the bolded passage supposed to be the goal of a white person who doesn't want their offspring to marry a non-white person?  because i don't think that is accurate.

on the punching thing, you seem to be talking past each other.  drew1 brought up several posts back that an assault that caused physical damage could be charged as a different crime than an assault that did not and that he thought that was appropriate.  there's no need to consider the identity of the assailant or victim when the actual result of the action is available to be used to classify the crime.
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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #128 on: May 24, 2018, 04:38:59 PM »
Ok, I think I'm with you:  you're saying that we should consider the effect of a bad act (along with actor's intent, i assume) on the victims when assigning moral blame to the actor.  That's a reasonable viewpoint and one I think I agree with. 

So applying that reasoning to the original situation, we have "white people demanding their kids marry white people inflicts greater damage to minorities than the damage done to white people (and other minorities) when a minority demands their kids marry a member of their race."  Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that's your point. 

that's pretty much accurate



But I'm still not convinced that there's any meaningful difference between the relative damage done.  Why does it cause more harm when a white person demands his daughter marry a white person than when a black person demands his daughter marry a black person?

I could better answer this if you would define what meaningful damage you see being done in the first place.


but I'll still take a stab at it:

I think the biggest reason is difference in power/status. In theory, a healthy adult male could kill an elderly woman with a punch. An elderly woman could not kill a healthy adult male with a punch. (in theory.) The white person is trying to exclude blacks from the privileged status whites enjoy in society - the black person cannot exclude the white person from the same elevated status. Same "crimes", different damages.
Well, okay i don't think the white person is trying to exclude blacks from privilege. I think the judge guy is probably uncomfortable around black people and wants grandchildren who look like the rest of his family.   Regardless, if this is an outcome oriented analysis that we're engaged in, then we should keep it that way and ignore (at least for the moment) the intentions of the bad actor. 

I think the meaningful harm being done by influencing your son or daughter to marry within their race is that it: (1) it's a horrible ultimatum to put on your son/daughter and (2) it promotes the arbitrary division and animosity among races which can manifest in all sorts of bad outcomes (differences in status, violence, etc.).  That being the case, I bet we agree that division among races disproportionately affects minorities (as compared with whites), as you implied with your explanation re. status.

However, regarding your status explanation, I think the effects of the two situations are the same.  If a black parent prohibits his child from marrying a white person, that effectively prevents the black child from enjoying whatever benefits that may exist from marrying a white person.  Which is to say it has the same effect as a white parent who prohibits his child from marrying a black person.  The action seems to result in the same bad outcome. 
« Last Edit: May 24, 2018, 04:43:10 PM by Dlew12 »


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Offline catastrophe

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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #129 on: May 24, 2018, 04:51:11 PM »
So if an old lady punches a guy but she is weak and causes no damage, then that's ok?

not OK, but not as bad as an adult male punching a woman and causing severe damage.

It's ok with me. :dunno:

Well, at least on the spectrum of battery.  Could still be harassing depending on the context.

Offline sys

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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #130 on: May 24, 2018, 04:52:34 PM »
drew1 brought up...

dlew12.  how embarrassing for me.
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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #131 on: May 24, 2018, 04:54:47 PM »
i assumed you were referring to someone else.


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Offline sys

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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #132 on: May 24, 2018, 05:07:08 PM »
I think the meaningful harm being done by influencing your son or daughter to marry within their race is that it: (1) it's a horrible ultimatum to put on your son/daughter and (2) it promotes the arbitrary division and animosity among races which can manifest in all sorts of bad outcomes (differences in status, violence, etc.).  That being the case, I bet we agree that division among races disproportionately affects minorities (as compared with whites), as you implied with your explanation re. status.

so, if either 1) your child has no desire to marry a person of a different race, or 2) the parent only expresses a preference but makes clear that the child is free to do as they wish, no harm is caused?

i would actually would argue that it (a person against offspring marrying a person of a different race) usually had no ill effects on either the offspring or society as a whole, but may express, or make concrete, thoughts or opinions that are deleterious to society in some meta sense (even if they do not inflict damage on an individual level).

in fact i think one could generalize what i was arguing yesterday about group identity impacting how objectionable the attitude is into something like: it is less objectionable for someone to oppose marriage heterogeneity due to a desire to perpetuate in their own lineage a shared group identity than it is for someone to oppose marriage heterogeneity due to a belief that members of some other group are substandard partners.

that would hold true for members of a dominant or majority group as well as for members of small, persecuted or highly divergent minority groups, but i suspect, and it would be reasonable to assume, that the former motive is far more prevalent among minority with strong group identities.
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Offline sys

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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #133 on: May 24, 2018, 05:07:58 PM »
i assumed you were referring to someone else.

you and michigan are the only two posters talking about this right now.  how could i mean someone else?
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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #134 on: May 24, 2018, 05:24:34 PM »
I think the meaningful harm being done by influencing your son or daughter to marry within their race is that it: (1) it's a horrible ultimatum to put on your son/daughter and (2) it promotes the arbitrary division and animosity among races which can manifest in all sorts of bad outcomes (differences in status, violence, etc.).  That being the case, I bet we agree that division among races disproportionately affects minorities (as compared with whites), as you implied with your explanation re. status.

so, if either 1) your child has no desire to marry a person of a different race, or 2) the parent only expresses a preference but makes clear that the child is free to do as they wish, no harm is caused?

i would actually would argue that it (a person against offspring marrying a person of a different race) usually had no ill effects on either the offspring or society as a whole, but may express, or make concrete, thoughts or opinions that are deleterious to society in some meta sense (even if they do not inflict damage on an individual level).
I agree with all of this.

in fact i think one could generalize what i was arguing yesterday about group identity impacting how objectionable the attitude is into something like: it is less objectionable for someone to oppose marriage heterogeneity due to a desire to perpetuate in their own lineage a shared group identity than it is for someone to oppose marriage heterogeneity due to a belief that members of some other group are substandard partners.

that would hold true for members of a dominant or majority group as well as for members of small, persecuted or highly divergent minority groups, but i suspect, and it would be reasonable to assume, that the former motive is far more prevalent among minority with strong group identities.
Well, that may be, but you're speaking about intentions and rusty wanted to talk about effects today.

i assumed you were referring to someone else.

you and michigan are the only two posters talking about this right now.  how could i mean someone else?
i don't know!  you said "drew1"!  wrong name AND number smdh
« Last Edit: May 24, 2018, 05:28:35 PM by Dlew12 »


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Offline Rage Against the McKee

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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #135 on: May 24, 2018, 07:00:43 PM »
No, the debate is about a judge in Texas who is running for public office and put it into his trust that his children only get money if they marry a Caucasian Christian, and whether or not that would be ok if somebody from a different race made the same demand.

rage, you may be expressing the hardest line on this subject of any poster.  does the strength of the expression of the sentiment matter to you, or is it entirely the existence of the sentiment itself?

for example if the judge only expressed a preference that his children marry same-race partners would you judge that identically to him legally disinheriting them if they don't do so?

It would be impossible for me to vote for anyone who says anything along the lines of having a preference for the race of whoever their child marries. I can understand having a preference in religion, as long as there isn’t some sort of punishment put in place for going against those wishes, but really it would bother me to know about that, too. For example, if Donald Trump would say he wishes Ivanka wouldn’t have married a Jew, that would be pretty awful, and it’s a double standard to think it wouldn’t still be awful if Donald Trump were Muslim. I do think it demonstrates a greater amount of hate to actually tie an inheritance or disown a child who dares go against those wishes, though.

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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #136 on: May 24, 2018, 07:12:39 PM »
You can’t hold inheritances over millennials heads, they don’t care about money.
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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #137 on: May 25, 2018, 03:13:11 AM »
I agree with the attorneys posting ITT. Most everyone else has undisciplined thought patterns that frustrate me.

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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #138 on: May 25, 2018, 03:14:56 AM »
*Dunno if sys is an attorney, but I feel comfy generally agreeing with him too. Smart guy, that sys.

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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #139 on: May 25, 2018, 03:30:38 AM »


For example, I don't see any compelling difference between (1) a black parent telling their daughter they wouldn't attend her wedding if she married a white person and (2) a white person telling their daughter the wouldn't attend her wedding if she married a black person.  Nor do I see a compelling difference between (a) a baptist family telling their son they would disown him if he married a non-baptist and (b) a muslim family telling their son they would disown him if he married a non-baptist.

The context and history matter. What if the black parent had a child shot and killed by a white police officer? What if she grew up in a dangerous housing situation because of racist white landlords? What if a relative was falsely convicted of a crime by an all-white jury? There's plenty of reasons for blacks to distrust whites that aren't necessarily reciprocal because of the history (and presence) of American racism.

And I'd give the muslim family a full pass for disowning a child for marrying a non-baptist. They're just oddly focused.
I think that people regardless of race can always find reasons to distrust groups of other people.  Would you feel differently about the judge's trust condition if you learned that his cousin got mugged by a black person when he was young?

In other words, I understand that there are explanations for black people to distrust white people in general, but I don't think black people are justified in distrusting white people in general.  I think the reciprocal is also true.  I don't think it's justifiable to distrust someone based on their race.

I think the entire weight of our nation’s systemic white American racism against blacks should play more of a role in providing context to black distrust of whites in individuals than white people’s long history of racial discrimination and prejudice against blacks should be excused just because we want some sort of equivalence for everything. If you acknowledge the history, why do you think blacks need to get over it and be held to the same standard as whites who never faced that systemic discrimination and have always had a much higher social standing in our society?


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Many (Black) intellectuals find this offensive, fwiw. The idea that thoughts emanating from the minds of Black people should be debated with less rigor is itself a form of white supremacy. The idea that we should treat people differently based upon their race is inherently suspect. The idea that people should be judged based on the historical actions of people who have a similar skin color is a fallacy of division and also inherently suspect. The fact that this even needs to be pointed out is inherently sad. Race as a proxy for ability is arbitrary and should never justify any official policy. Let's just all agree to be vigilant and to never let it happen again, yeah?

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Offline steve dave

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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #140 on: May 25, 2018, 07:47:37 AM »
Good smart guy gE’ing going on recently itt. Nice work buds.


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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #141 on: May 25, 2018, 08:27:51 AM »
I agree with the attorneys posting ITT. Most everyone else has undisciplined thought patterns that frustrate me.

Translation: I agree more with those who've shed fewer of their hick Kansas rooted tendencies regarding race.

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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #142 on: May 25, 2018, 08:35:56 AM »
I agree with the attorneys posting ITT. Most everyone else has undisciplined thought patterns that frustrate me.

Translation: I agree more with those who've shed fewer of their hick Kansas rooted tendencies regarding race.
hey fyi i have black friends, dude


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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #143 on: May 25, 2018, 09:00:53 AM »


For example, I don't see any compelling difference between (1) a black parent telling their daughter they wouldn't attend her wedding if she married a white person and (2) a white person telling their daughter the wouldn't attend her wedding if she married a black person.  Nor do I see a compelling difference between (a) a baptist family telling their son they would disown him if he married a non-baptist and (b) a muslim family telling their son they would disown him if he married a non-baptist.

The context and history matter. What if the black parent had a child shot and killed by a white police officer? What if she grew up in a dangerous housing situation because of racist white landlords? What if a relative was falsely convicted of a crime by an all-white jury? There's plenty of reasons for blacks to distrust whites that aren't necessarily reciprocal because of the history (and presence) of American racism.

And I'd give the muslim family a full pass for disowning a child for marrying a non-baptist. They're just oddly focused.
I think that people regardless of race can always find reasons to distrust groups of other people.  Would you feel differently about the judge's trust condition if you learned that his cousin got mugged by a black person when he was young?

In other words, I understand that there are explanations for black people to distrust white people in general, but I don't think black people are justified in distrusting white people in general.  I think the reciprocal is also true.  I don't think it's justifiable to distrust someone based on their race.

I think the entire weight of our nation’s systemic white American racism against blacks should play more of a role in providing context to black distrust of whites in individuals than white people’s long history of racial discrimination and prejudice against blacks should be excused just because we want some sort of equivalence for everything. If you acknowledge the history, why do you think blacks need to get over it and be held to the same standard as whites who never faced that systemic discrimination and have always had a much higher social standing in our society?


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Many (Black) intellectuals find this offensive, fwiw. The idea that thoughts emanating from the minds of Black people should be debated with less rigor is itself a form of white supremacy. The idea that we should treat people differently based upon their race is inherently suspect. The idea that people should be judged based on the historical actions of people who have a similar skin color is a fallacy of division and also inherently suspect. The fact that this even needs to be pointed out is inherently sad. Race as a proxy for ability is arbitrary and should never justify any official policy. Let's just all agree to be vigilant and to never let it happen again, yeah?

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I wasn't referring to "standard" as some sort of "achievement." I am saying that a people that have historically subjugated another declaring "all subjugation is over, everyone should not hold any prejudice starting now" then in practice having all sorts of prejudice and then saying it is equally bad for the victims and perpetrators of this systemic discrimination to perpetuate it beyond this point is not "treating people equally."

This has nothing to do with "rigor." It has to do with power.

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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #144 on: May 25, 2018, 09:07:03 AM »


For example, I don't see any compelling difference between (1) a black parent telling their daughter they wouldn't attend her wedding if she married a white person and (2) a white person telling their daughter the wouldn't attend her wedding if she married a black person.  Nor do I see a compelling difference between (a) a baptist family telling their son they would disown him if he married a non-baptist and (b) a muslim family telling their son they would disown him if he married a non-baptist.

The context and history matter. What if the black parent had a child shot and killed by a white police officer? What if she grew up in a dangerous housing situation because of racist white landlords? What if a relative was falsely convicted of a crime by an all-white jury? There's plenty of reasons for blacks to distrust whites that aren't necessarily reciprocal because of the history (and presence) of American racism.

And I'd give the muslim family a full pass for disowning a child for marrying a non-baptist. They're just oddly focused.
I think that people regardless of race can always find reasons to distrust groups of other people.  Would you feel differently about the judge's trust condition if you learned that his cousin got mugged by a black person when he was young?

In other words, I understand that there are explanations for black people to distrust white people in general, but I don't think black people are justified in distrusting white people in general.  I think the reciprocal is also true.  I don't think it's justifiable to distrust someone based on their race.

I think the entire weight of our nation’s systemic white American racism against blacks should play more of a role in providing context to black distrust of whites in individuals than white people’s long history of racial discrimination and prejudice against blacks should be excused just because we want some sort of equivalence for everything. If you acknowledge the history, why do you think blacks need to get over it and be held to the same standard as whites who never faced that systemic discrimination and have always had a much higher social standing in our society?


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Many (Black) intellectuals find this offensive, fwiw. The idea that thoughts emanating from the minds of Black people should be debated with less rigor is itself a form of white supremacy. The idea that we should treat people differently based upon their race is inherently suspect. The idea that people should be judged based on the historical actions of people who have a similar skin color is a fallacy of division and also inherently suspect. The fact that this even needs to be pointed out is inherently sad. Race as a proxy for ability is arbitrary and should never justify any official policy. Let's just all agree to be vigilant and to never let it happen again, yeah?

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

I wasn't referring to "standard" as some sort of "achievement." I am saying that a people that have historically subjugated another declaring "all subjugation is over, everyone should not hold any prejudice starting now" then in practice having all sorts of prejudice and then saying it is equally bad for the victims and perpetrators of this systemic discrimination to perpetuate it beyond this point is not "treating people equally."

This has nothing to do with "rigor." It has to do with power.
Nobody here is a "people that have historically subjugated another."  I don't think anyone is claiming to speak on behalf of whites in general. We're individuals, most of whom have never subjugated anyone.  I do not consider myself a perpetrator of systemic discrimination.  Do you? 



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Offline Kat Kid

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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #145 on: May 25, 2018, 09:56:09 AM »


For example, I don't see any compelling difference between (1) a black parent telling their daughter they wouldn't attend her wedding if she married a white person and (2) a white person telling their daughter the wouldn't attend her wedding if she married a black person.  Nor do I see a compelling difference between (a) a baptist family telling their son they would disown him if he married a non-baptist and (b) a muslim family telling their son they would disown him if he married a non-baptist.

The context and history matter. What if the black parent had a child shot and killed by a white police officer? What if she grew up in a dangerous housing situation because of racist white landlords? What if a relative was falsely convicted of a crime by an all-white jury? There's plenty of reasons for blacks to distrust whites that aren't necessarily reciprocal because of the history (and presence) of American racism.

And I'd give the muslim family a full pass for disowning a child for marrying a non-baptist. They're just oddly focused.
I think that people regardless of race can always find reasons to distrust groups of other people.  Would you feel differently about the judge's trust condition if you learned that his cousin got mugged by a black person when he was young?

In other words, I understand that there are explanations for black people to distrust white people in general, but I don't think black people are justified in distrusting white people in general.  I think the reciprocal is also true.  I don't think it's justifiable to distrust someone based on their race.

I think the entire weight of our nation’s systemic white American racism against blacks should play more of a role in providing context to black distrust of whites in individuals than white people’s long history of racial discrimination and prejudice against blacks should be excused just because we want some sort of equivalence for everything. If you acknowledge the history, why do you think blacks need to get over it and be held to the same standard as whites who never faced that systemic discrimination and have always had a much higher social standing in our society?


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Many (Black) intellectuals find this offensive, fwiw. The idea that thoughts emanating from the minds of Black people should be debated with less rigor is itself a form of white supremacy. The idea that we should treat people differently based upon their race is inherently suspect. The idea that people should be judged based on the historical actions of people who have a similar skin color is a fallacy of division and also inherently suspect. The fact that this even needs to be pointed out is inherently sad. Race as a proxy for ability is arbitrary and should never justify any official policy. Let's just all agree to be vigilant and to never let it happen again, yeah?

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

I wasn't referring to "standard" as some sort of "achievement." I am saying that a people that have historically subjugated another declaring "all subjugation is over, everyone should not hold any prejudice starting now" then in practice having all sorts of prejudice and then saying it is equally bad for the victims and perpetrators of this systemic discrimination to perpetuate it beyond this point is not "treating people equally."

This has nothing to do with "rigor." It has to do with power.
Nobody here is a "people that have historically subjugated another."  I don't think anyone is claiming to speak on behalf of whites in general. We're individuals, most of whom have never subjugated anyone.  I do not consider myself a perpetrator of systemic discrimination.  Do you?

I'm pretty exhausted by this so I don't know how much more I'm going to participate. We've both benefited from the systemic discrimination. I don't think we're culpable for everything or that we are even capable of changing it as an individual, but I think acknowledging it has a place in this discussion which I have tried to say. I just don't think that your categorical imperative is very helpful in the context of our society as it actually is.

Offline catastrophe

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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #146 on: May 25, 2018, 10:10:33 AM »
Even if a categorical imperative is an absolute, it can be phrased in a way that allows context.  I think it is perfectly reasonable to assign differing levels of blame for the same behavior if it predictably results in different levels of harm.  A professional boxer knows he can cause a lot of harm with a punch while an 80 year old grandma knows she cannot.  A person in a position of power should have the same awareness when it comes to discrimination.

Maybe we shouldn't act like backwoodsy Joe Blow should be held to a higher standard because he is white, but we can definitely feel that way about a judge.

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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #147 on: May 25, 2018, 10:59:14 AM »
I wasn't referring to "standard" as some sort of "achievement." I am saying that a people that have historically subjugated another declaring "all subjugation is over, everyone should not hold any prejudice starting now" then in practice having all sorts of prejudice and then saying it is equally bad for the victims and perpetrators of this systemic discrimination to perpetuate it beyond this point is not "treating people equally."

This has nothing to do with "rigor." It has to do with power.
Nobody here is a "people that have historically subjugated another."  I don't think anyone is claiming to speak on behalf of whites in general. We're individuals, most of whom have never subjugated anyone.  I do not consider myself a perpetrator of systemic discrimination.  Do you?

I'm pretty exhausted by this so I don't know how much more I'm going to participate. We've both benefited from the systemic discrimination. I don't think we're culpable for everything or that we are even capable of changing it as an individual, but I think acknowledging it has a place in this discussion which I have tried to say. I just don't think that your categorical imperative is very helpful in the context of our society as it actually is.
Yes this conversation has run its course.

I agree that I have benefited to some degree from historical systemic discrimination against black people.  I do not agree that those benefits (for which I never asked) put a higher moral burden on me than they do a black person. 

I'm comfortable with the imperative. 


"You want to stand next to someone and not be able to hear them, walk your ass into Manhattan, Kansas." - [REDACTED]

Online michigancat

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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #148 on: May 25, 2018, 11:20:49 AM »
I agree that I have benefited to some degree from historical systemic discrimination against black people.  I do not agree that those benefits (for which I never asked) put a higher moral burden on me than they do a black person. 

Maybe a more accurate way to say it is it puts a different moral burden on you. A good example is the white girl using the n-word on stage at the Kendrick show. I mean, I hope we can all agree the girl using it was wrong, but was Kendrick equally wrong for using the word in the song? Is she held to a higher moral standard, or a different one?

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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #149 on: May 25, 2018, 11:24:20 AM »
It's really difficult to communicate to some people that they should care about other people.