Author Topic: ‘Twas the Night before Trumpmas...  (Read 6076 times)

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Offline Spracne

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Re: ‘Twas the Night before Trumpmas...
« Reply #25 on: July 09, 2018, 05:04:54 PM »
Hey, no one in 1868 thought that the 14th Amendment would affect school segregation. Therefore, Brown v. BoE was wrongly decided, and states should be free to racially segregate schools. After all, education is a matter traditionally reserved by the states.

Offline Kat Kid

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Re: ‘Twas the Night before Trumpmas...
« Reply #26 on: July 09, 2018, 05:07:54 PM »
do you two dress up in powdered wigs and stockings to write crap out with quil and ink? What the eff?

Offline K-S-U-Wildcats!

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Re: ‘Twas the Night before Trumpmas...
« Reply #27 on: July 09, 2018, 05:44:38 PM »
do you two dress up in powdered wigs and stockings to write crap out with quil and ink? What the eff?

That’s good, KK.

Sprac, you’ve already demonstrated your basic ignorance of constitutional law by arguing that I can’t criticize the invention of a right to abortion unless I can point to where the constitution says life begins - an argument so amusingly idiotic that you’ve now quickly abandoned in favor of.... your equally silly equal protection argument.

This will be the last of your foolish arguments I bother to shoot down tonight - I’ve got Trumpmas plans - so two points briefly: First, equal protection for women does not in any way require a right for a woman to kill a human life growing inside of her. That doesn’t have a damned thing to do with equal protection. Second, your straw man argument that originalists must believe that the equal protection clause to the 14th amendment only applies to slaves completely misunderstands originalism. Start here: https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/neil-gorsuch-explains-originalism-dianne-feinstein-citing-14th-amendment/amp/
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Re: ‘Twas the Night before Trumpmas...
« Reply #28 on: July 09, 2018, 07:11:23 PM »
...unless states pass (enforce, rather) laws that conflict with the supreme law, in which case those laws are void. I suggested above that abortion bans should be properly viewed as violative of the Fourteenth Amendment--not under some murky fundamental rights substantive due process thingy, but rather as denying women the equal protection of the laws. <--The equal protection clause is an actual part of the Constitution, not a penumbra. But as a professed Originalist, I'm sure you believe that we are free to discriminate against women because the purpose of the 14th Amendment was to protect newly freed slaves.

I don't see how a law that applies to everyone the exact same could violate the equal protection clause of an amendment intended to protect freed slaves.
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Re: ‘Twas the Night before Trumpmas...
« Reply #29 on: July 09, 2018, 07:14:53 PM »
Rather than searching for a right to kill unborn babies (eg, torturing the EP clause), the libtards should propose a constitutional amendment....
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Offline Spracne

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Re: ‘Twas the Night before Trumpmas...
« Reply #30 on: July 09, 2018, 07:21:58 PM »
(Crap i've parsed below)

WARNING: Seriously, do NOT read this message if you're not KSU-W. It will bore the crap out of you.

Quote
Sprac, you’ve already demonstrated your basic ignorance of constitutional law by arguing that I can’t criticize the invention of a right to abortion unless I can point to where the constitution says life begins - an argument so amusingly idiotic that you’ve now quickly abandoned in favor of.... your equally silly equal protection argument.

I think the problem is just that I know so, so much more than you do about this, and I mistakenly assumed I could elide the details without losing you. That's probably why my remarks seem confusing to you. But I can slow things down and go step by step. First, I did not abandon anything: The legal definition of when life begins and the equal protection argument are connected, but I skipped a few steps by jumping to the question. Next time I won't assume the link need not be explained in excruciating detail that will make this thread unreadable for all but a handful of people:

Let's pretend Roe never happened, and Jane Doe visits a state clinic in Kansas seeking to terminate her pregnancy. At the clinic, Jane Doe is denied this medical procedure and informed that the state makes it a crime to seek or provide an abortion (let's even say there's an exception when the life of the mother is in jeopardy). Jane Doe--a very astute constitutional law scholar--files suit in federal district court seeking an injunction against enforcement of the Kansas statute on the grounds that it violates the Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment. Judge KSU-W grants Kansas's motion to dismiss, erroneously believing that Kansas is immune from suit pursuant to the 11th Amendment (this is a suit for equitable relief, not money damages, you dumbshit). Jane Doe appeals, but a panel of the 10th Circuit determines it lacks Article III standing because Jane Doe, since filing her case, has subsequently given birth and handed the child over for adoption, and thus there is no active case or controversy for the court to decide. Her appeal is dismissed for mootness. Jane Doe appeals, and SCOTUS grants certiorari because pregnancy, as a temporary disability, is capable of repetition yet evading review. What result?

Of course, the Court will first address whether it has subject matter jurisdiction. It concludes that pregnancy fits within the "capable of repetition yet evading review" exception to mootness. The Court also sternly admonishes Judge KSU-W for misunderstanding the reach of the 11th Amendment. Having determined it has jurisdiction, the Court proceeds to the merits.

Because of Judge KSU-W's hilariously bad dismissal, the record on appeal is devoid of much factual content. So the Court looks to the pleadings. Jane Doe has alleged that the Kansas law violates the Equal Protection Clause because it unfairly discriminates against her because she is a woman. The Justices--all principled jurists--prudently apply the existing framework on gender discrimination under the EPC.

Step 1: Is gender a suspect classification under the EPC, such that a classification based on gender triggers heightened scrutiny? Yes, yes it is.

Step 2: Does the law classify on the basis of gender on its face? That is, is the law facially discriminatory? Yes. Only women can become pregnant, therefore we are dealing with a law that classifies on the basis of gender on its face.

Step 3: What is the standard of review? The standard of review in gender discrimination cases is intermediate scrutiny. We ask: Is the law substantially related to an important government interest? First, we need to hear Kansas's supposed "important government interest(s)" before we can determine the fitness between the means and the ends. In Planned Parenthood v. Casey, the Supreme Court recognized a legitimate interest in protecting potential human life, but that interest in potential life only becomes compelling after the point of viability. By contrast, the Kansas law is an outright ban on abortion--even before viability. Because the government must advance a secular purpose, it cannot rely as so many do on Judeo-Christian norms of morality. At this stage, the burden is on Kansas to convince the Court that it is advancing an "important government interest."

So, what's your secular, important governmental interest that justifies this law? You're going to have to argue that the rights of the unborn child have been violated. But in order to do that, you're going to have to make the novel argument--I emphasize that this indeed would be truly novel law--that pre-viability fetuses are capable of possessing legal rights. The problem is, that's a really hard argument to make if you give weight to the whole common law tradition, which as an Originalist I have to believe you do.

So, yes: If you're defending an equal protection challenge to an outright abortion ban, you--bearing the burden--have to make a legal argument for when "life", as a human being capable of having the rights of all living Americans, begins. Do you see the link now?

Steps 4+: Unnecessary as a matter of Constitutional avoidance.

Quote
First, equal protection for women does not in any way require a right for a woman to kill a human life growing inside of her. That doesn’t have a damned thing to do with equal protection.

Sorry, Chief. See supra.

Quote
Second, your straw man argument that originalists must believe that the equal protection clause to the 14th amendment only applies to slaves completely misunderstands originalism. Start here: https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/neil-gorsuch-explains-originalism-dianne-feinstein-citing-14th-amendment/amp/

Well I'll be damned, even Justice Gorsuch doesn't know what Originalism means! Or, more likely, he was trying to rough ridin' get confirmed when he made those statements, and his conflated explanation is more palatable. But what is described there is more akin to Textualism, a.k.a a plain-meaning approach. That is not controversial. In fact, it's a bedrock canon of statutory and contractual interpretation. The problem is, that's not what Originalism means, and if you were really as knowledgeable as you claim, you'd know that. Originalists look either to the intent of those who passed/ratified a law/Amendment/Constitution (minority view) or to how a normal, reasonable person would have understood the law/Amendment/Constitution at the time when it was passed/ratified (majority view).





Offline SkinnyBenny

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Re: ‘Twas the Night before Trumpmas...
« Reply #31 on: July 09, 2018, 07:29:36 PM »
Holy crap. Body bag.
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Re: ‘Twas the Night before Trumpmas...
« Reply #32 on: July 09, 2018, 07:45:02 PM »
However, thanks to advances in embryonic healthcare in the last 45 years, the court could reasonably find that life (misnamed "viability")begins at an unfertilized egg and mush the so-called mother's case. Afterall, if viability is the standard why are we wasting resources on the terminally ill, endangered and threatened species, and the human race as a whole?

It could also rule against the mother claiming a law that only punishes somebody else, not her, cannot possibly descriminate against her. Is somebody going to argue that age limits on drinking aren't enforceable because they only apply to young people, a potential new protected class (after nba one and done litigation filed by the 300+ D1 going up against that talent)????
« Last Edit: July 09, 2018, 07:52:14 PM by Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!) »
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Re: ‘Twas the Night before Trumpmas...
« Reply #33 on: July 09, 2018, 07:48:16 PM »
Further, the court could find that its various standards of review for so-called protected classes, that were made up from whole cloth, was bad law from day 1, and wipe the slate clean.
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Offline Spracne

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Re: ‘Twas the Night before Trumpmas...
« Reply #34 on: July 09, 2018, 07:52:37 PM »
However, thanks to advances in embryonic healthcare in the last 45 years, the court could reasonably find that life (misnamed "viability")begins at an unfertilized egg and mush the so-called mother's case. Afterall, if viability is the standard why are we wasting resources on the terminally ill, endangered and threatened species, and the human race as a whole?

It could also rule against the mother claiming a law that only punishes somebody else, not her, and cannot possibly descriminate against her.

I think we look at legal rights through the lens of property law, since that's the oldest flavor of our legal tradition. Rights become vested at some point (birth? viability?) and only death divests them. Property law provides the legal tradition, and it would take a novel decision to depart from that. Not impossible, just lacking in precedent.

Regarding third-party standing, there is ample precedent showing that third parties can assert the 14th Amendment rights of others in cases like this (Craig v. Boren, Eisenstadt v. Baird, Griswold v. Connecticut, etc).

Offline Spracne

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Re: ‘Twas the Night before Trumpmas...
« Reply #35 on: July 09, 2018, 07:54:05 PM »
Further, the court could find that its various standards of review for so-called protected classes, that were made up from whole cloth, was bad law from day 1, and wipe the slate clean.

I thought Conservatives were big fans of stare decisis? People and governments have organized their lives and affairs around these standards for so long that it would be inequitable to depart from settled law.

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Re: ‘Twas the Night before Trumpmas...
« Reply #36 on: July 09, 2018, 07:56:32 PM »
The SCOTUS would only need one test tube baby to find life begins at conception, it's about the easiest way around the bastardization of the law that is "abortion rights". At that point the unborn baby wins because it's death v. 9 months of self-inflicted inconvenience. They'd never have to get to the absurd standards of review analysis.
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Re: ‘Twas the Night before Trumpmas...
« Reply #37 on: July 09, 2018, 07:57:54 PM »
Further, the court could find that its various standards of review for so-called protected classes, that were made up from whole cloth, was bad law from day 1, and wipe the slate clean.

I thought Conservatives were big fans of stare decisis? People and governments have organized their lives and affairs around these standards for so long that it would be inequitable to depart from settled law.

The conservatives saved us from dred scott and plessy, and can surely save us from roe.
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Re: ‘Twas the Night before Trumpmas...
« Reply #38 on: July 09, 2018, 07:59:16 PM »
Soon they may even save the poors from New London.

Add: Wickard
« Last Edit: July 09, 2018, 08:08:41 PM by Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!) »
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Offline Spracne

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Re: ‘Twas the Night before Trumpmas...
« Reply #39 on: July 09, 2018, 08:00:07 PM »
However, thanks to advances in embryonic healthcare in the last 45 years, the court could reasonably find that life (misnamed "viability")begins at an unfertilized egg and mush the so-called mother's case. Afterall, if viability is the standard why are we wasting resources on the terminally ill, endangered and threatened species, and the human race as a whole?

It could also rule against the mother claiming a law that only punishes somebody else, not her, cannot possibly descriminate against her. Is somebody going to argue that age limits on drinking aren't enforceable because they only apply to young people, a potential new protected class (after nba one and done litigation filed by the 300+ D1 going up against that talent)????

I quoted before your edit, but the age limit thing would likely pass equal protection muster because it does not discriminate based on a protected class. After all, there are only 5 groups of people that get heightened scrutiny (race, alienage, national origin, gender, and illegitimacy), and you'll be happy to learn that there have been no new suspect groups added since the early 1980's when the court started to turn more strongly conservative. There will likely be no more new suspect classifications added, as the court in its recent decisions has moved toward a hybrid liberty/equality approach that doesn't require suspect classification in order to invalidate laws. Since the classification in your hypo (age) is not a suspect class, the government would need only show that the law is rationally related to a legitimate government interest, which basically means the government always wins. Regarding your NBA example, I think the door to new protected classes is closed, and also there's no state action there to even address, so the Constitution doesn't apply.

Offline Spracne

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Re: ‘Twas the Night before Trumpmas...
« Reply #40 on: July 09, 2018, 08:07:52 PM »
IT'S KAVANAUGH! (sp?)




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Re: ‘Twas the Night before Trumpmas...
« Reply #41 on: July 09, 2018, 08:09:56 PM »
However, thanks to advances in embryonic healthcare in the last 45 years, the court could reasonably find that life (misnamed "viability")begins at an unfertilized egg and mush the so-called mother's case. Afterall, if viability is the standard why are we wasting resources on the terminally ill, endangered and threatened species, and the human race as a whole?

It could also rule against the mother claiming a law that only punishes somebody else, not her, cannot possibly descriminate against her. Is somebody going to argue that age limits on drinking aren't enforceable because they only apply to young people, a potential new protected class (after nba one and done litigation filed by the 300+ D1 going up against that talent)????

I quoted before your edit, but the age limit thing would likely pass equal protection muster because it does not discriminate based on a protected class. After all, there are only 5 groups of people that get heightened scrutiny (race, alienage, national origin, gender, and illegitimacy), and you'll be happy to learn that there have been no new suspect groups added since the early 1980's when the court started to turn more strongly conservative. There will likely be no more new suspect classifications added, as the court in its recent decisions has moved toward a hybrid liberty/equality approach that doesn't require suspect classification in order to invalidate laws. Since the classification in your hypo (age) is not a suspect class, the government would need only show that the law is rationally related to a legitimate government interest, which basically means the government always wins. Regarding your NBA example, I think the door to new protected classes is closed, and also there's no state action there to even address, so the Constitution doesn't apply.

There are no protected classes until the court creates one from thin air, which was my obvious point.
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Offline Spracne

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Re: ‘Twas the Night before Trumpmas...
« Reply #42 on: July 09, 2018, 08:13:20 PM »
Read footnote 4 of Carolene Products. We don't live in a pure Democracy, and for good reason. Sometimes, the Democratic processes break down, and that's when we need an undemocratic branch to step up. It's a delicate balance of power that must be carefully attended to, but it's necessary.

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Re: ‘Twas the Night before Trumpmas...
« Reply #43 on: July 09, 2018, 08:17:02 PM »
IT'S KAVANAUGH! (sp?)



Does that make hardigan two-time bridesmaid?
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Re: ‘Twas the Night before Trumpmas...
« Reply #44 on: July 09, 2018, 08:19:11 PM »
Read footnote 4 of Carolene Products. We don't live in a pure Democracy, and for good reason. Sometimes, the Democratic processes break down, and that's when we need an undemocratic branch to step up. It's a delicate balance of power that must be carefully attended to, but it's necessary.

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The fact that's buried in a fn should be all you need to know about the collective balls of the scotus.

Also, ftr, conlaw is for tools.
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Offline Spracne

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Re: ‘Twas the Night before Trumpmas...
« Reply #45 on: July 09, 2018, 08:19:42 PM »
Kavanaugh's a nice guy. I'm sure he'll do a good job. Fit's the bill. Yale law school. Wife's a UT alum. Family man. Etc.

Offline Spracne

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Re: ‘Twas the Night before Trumpmas...
« Reply #46 on: July 09, 2018, 08:21:28 PM »
Read footnote 4 of Carolene Products. We don't live in a pure Democracy, and for good reason. Sometimes, the Democratic processes break down, and that's when we need an undemocratic branch to step up. It's a delicate balance of power that must be carefully attended to, but it's necessary.

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The fact that's buried in a fn should be all you need to know about the collective balls of the scotus.

Also, ftr, conlaw is for tools.

It was a mustard seed that etc, etc, etc...

Also, that's a strange sentiment coming from you.

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Re: ‘Twas the Night before Trumpmas...
« Reply #47 on: July 09, 2018, 08:35:58 PM »
Given that the only real reason to get excited for a scotus pick is the propensity to unpend/expand existing law (the very opposite of its purpose), it's rightly characterized as an academic circle jerk.

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Re: ‘Twas the Night before Trumpmas...
« Reply #48 on: July 09, 2018, 08:37:02 PM »
IT'S KAVANAUGH! (sp?)

oh well, too bad.  any of the other three would have really owned the libs.  big missed oppy.
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Re: ‘Twas the Night before Trumpmas...
« Reply #49 on: July 09, 2018, 08:39:04 PM »
this guy passes the mocat eye test for SC judges (is bad at smiling)