Author Topic: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look  (Read 135740 times)

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Offline Kat Kid

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #450 on: April 09, 2018, 01:49:49 PM »
another good piece on media in the age of the twitter mob.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/04/a-dissent-concerning-kevin-williamson/484052/

what about that piece do you find compelling?

Offline sys

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #451 on: April 09, 2018, 02:03:15 PM »
what about that piece do you find compelling?

Quote
Word of Williamson’s hiring was greeted by some as if by mercenary opposition researchers determined to isolate the most outlying and offensive thoughts that he ever uttered, no matter how marginal to his years of journalistic work; to gleefully amplify them, sometimes in highly distorting ways, in a manner designed to stoke maximum upset and revulsion; and to frame them as if they said everything one needed to know about his character. To render him toxic was their purpose.

That mode was poison when reserved for cabinet nominees; it is poison when applied to journalistic hires; and it will be poison if, next week or year, it comes for you.

Quote
I worry that the firing was a failure of “the spirit of generosity,” a value that The Atlantic has long touted as a core value. I know that it raised thorny, unresolved questions about what exactly is verboten at the magazine. I fear it will make it harder for the publication to contribute to the sort of public sphere where the right and the left mutually benefit from fraught engagement.

Quote
I worry that the dragging and the firing were failures of tolerance.

That virtue is unfashionable these days. And I believe that those who minimize, dismiss, or reject it underestimate its value and the potential consequences of its atrophy, even as many who value tolerance have lost the words or the stomach to defend it.

Quote
I reject the assumption that social justice or civic progress are advanced, that repressive outcomes are avoided, or that vulnerable groups are best served, by partisans who focus on everyone’s most extreme, or wrongheaded, or taboo, or outlying, or shocking, or problematic view

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I draw a distinction between the position that a given belief “is not something that belongs anywhere in the mainstream,” and the crucially distinct belief that a person who holds any such position should be totally excluded from mainstream institutions

and this whole passage quoted by the author:

Quote
    I’ve long admired Williamson’s writing, if not his ideas, for the way he’s internalized Michael Kinsley’s warning that if you’re afraid to go too far, you won’t go far enough. Williamson almost always goes too far, taking his arguments to thought frontiers where there are no roads, no mobile phone service and sometimes barely enough air to breathe… see these National Review pieces arguing against reparations, decrying the mainstreaming of transgender rights, critiquing the “white working class” and dismissing the idea of “white supremacy.”

    Since the rise of Donald Trump, Williamson has emerged as maybe the most eloquent and forceful internal critic of that part of the white working class that went for Trump. He’s a blue-collar Texan who regularly lets his fellow blue-collar white people have it for their moral failures, for their embrace of a strongman, for letting the “American values” they purport to stand for decay into a swamp of self-pity and conspiracy-mongering. He has become the center-left’s favorite righty firebrand, and it’s not hard to see why Goldberg wanted him aboard.

    But once you get beyond the anti-Trumpism, he also holds a lot of social positions the center-left loathes, and he’s ferociously good at articulating them. He’s the kind of writer comfortable liberals ignore at their peril. Every Williamson article contains strong meat, which has led his detractors to dismiss him as a troll. But that’s not who he is. He’s really more of an ogre who loves to take arguments to the breaking point in hopes of shocking readers with his cold, unbound logic. Where other writers might serve 7 percent alcohol in their brew, Williamson likes to up his percentage to 20. Where other writers might stop at mean, Williamson keeps going all the way to cruel.

and finally these:

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getting along despite deep differences would’ve required Williamson to tolerate beliefs that he finds highly objectionable in many whom he encountered; while many of those encountering him would find just one such person in the company. The ability to tolerate the outgroup is a vital skill at any publication that aspires to the motto, “Of no party or clique.” I hope that the deliberate work it takes for any institution to cultivate, hone, and maintain that skill is a priority for The Atlantic going forward.

Quote
Ross Douthat laments what he perceives as “the inability of contemporary liberalism to see itself from the outside, as it looks to the many people who for some reason, class or religion or historical experience, are not fully indoctrinated into its increasingly incoherent mix of orthodoxies.”
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

Offline TheHamburglar

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #452 on: April 09, 2018, 02:16:55 PM »
http://dailysignal.com/2018/02/08/school-loses-dad-daughter-dance-because-of-gender-neutral-policies/amp/
State of NY prohibits any gender based activity that is not educational.

I had no idea this was a thing outside of super conservative Christian groups.
I got a guy on the other line about some white walls

Offline Kat Kid

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #453 on: April 09, 2018, 02:52:35 PM »
I half read the whole piece earlier so I may have missed it, but does Connor ever grapple with any of the pretty terrible stuff that Williamson wrote/said/believes or does he just completely elide it?  He also barely mentions that Williamson appeared to misrepresent the "hanging take" to Goldberg. Bret Stevens even went so far as to defend Williamson on these grounds only to be undercut by the fact that Williamson had apparently repeated this belief at length on a podcast (and perhaps in person to Goldberg?).  People get fired quite often for misrepresenting their resume to their employers.  It isn't the worst thing in the world that George O'Leary never played college ball and it may not have been the end of Williamson if he had been more forthright with Goldberg (or if Goldberg had actually done a cursory review of Williamson's bad writing to begin with).

I didn't read all of the other conservative writers he links in toward the end or read their defenses (other than Douthat's).  I also have previously read a decent amount of Williamson's work and I have trouble reconciling what I have read with the amount of praise that was heaped on Williamson after the fact.

Obviously I've written a lot of stuff on here that I am not proud of and wouldn't appreciate getting thrown back in my face, but I am doing so on a message board not as a career.  As for "free speech" I won't worry too much about Williamson as I'm sure he will have no problem falling right back in to a cushy career writing for a right-wing outfit that is subsidized by billionaire foundations and corporate sponsors and would never survive on the free market.

Offline sys

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #454 on: April 09, 2018, 03:24:16 PM »
I half read the whole piece earlier so I may have missed it, but does Connor ever grapple with any of the pretty terrible stuff that Williamson wrote/said/believes or does he just completely elide it?

from my perspective, he kind of beat to death the point that he didn't agree with most of williamson's writings.

He also barely mentions that Williamson appeared to misrepresent the "hanging take" to Goldberg. Bret Stevens even went so far as to defend Williamson on these grounds only to be undercut by the fact that Williamson had apparently repeated this belief at length on a podcast (and perhaps in person to Goldberg?).  People get fired quite often for misrepresenting their resume to their employers.

goldberg didn't make a big deal of any misrepresentation, i'd argue that friedersdorf made more of that possibility than goldberg did.  i also find the notion that it's ok to tweet an opinion, but not ok to expound at greater length on the same theme in a podcast to be a rather arbitrary and foolish line in the sand.

I didn't read all of the other conservative writers he links in toward the end or read their defenses (other than Douthat's).  I also have previously read a decent amount of Williamson's work and I have trouble reconciling what I have read with the amount of praise that was heaped on Williamson after the fact.

Obviously I've written a lot of stuff on here that I am not proud of and wouldn't appreciate getting thrown back in my face, but I am doing so on a message board not as a career.  As for "free speech" I won't worry too much about Williamson as I'm sure he will have no problem falling right back in to a cushy career writing for a right-wing outfit that is subsidized by billionaire foundations and corporate sponsors and would never survive on the free market.

i don't particularly cotton to the idea that williamson is some martyr due to this experience.  i also completely agree with the idea that the editorial board of a publication has the right (perhaps even the obligation) to curate the content they desire to represent their publication.  they can exclude voices from the left or exclude voices from the right.  if they wish to house a centrist view, they can publish nothing but milquetoast fencesitters or they can search out extremists from opposing camps.

to my mind it is more the jarring disconnect between goldberg's initial announcement of williamson's hiring and the rhetoric of his dismissal.  if the atlantic truly wishes to house writers that espouse widely varied views and publish people that actually disagree with each other they've taken a step backwards.
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

Offline sys

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #455 on: April 09, 2018, 03:28:46 PM »
i'll also add that i accept the idea that never trump conservatives are already overrepresented in print media and it would contribute more to viewpoint diversity to publish a few more protrump conservatives.  i'm not particularly interested in reading what protrumpers might have to say, but the bias is hard to miss.
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

Offline sys

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #456 on: April 09, 2018, 03:32:14 PM »
btw, katkid, i commend this tweet thread to you.

https://twitter.com/ebruenig/status/983003514275328000
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

Offline renocat

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #457 on: April 09, 2018, 03:35:06 PM »
Facebook killing Diamond and Silk because they speak their mind that they support Trump as independent thinking black women.

Facebook said, "Here is the reply from Facebook. Thu, Apr 5, 2018 at 3:40 PM: “The Policy team has came to the conclusion that your content and your brand has been determined unsafe to the community.”
« Last Edit: April 09, 2018, 03:39:33 PM by renocat »

Offline michigancat

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #458 on: April 09, 2018, 03:53:06 PM »
my problem with the Friedsdorf piece is I felt like I had to read a dozen other articles to get a feel for how everything really went down.

Offline sys

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #459 on: April 09, 2018, 04:03:39 PM »
i think it's more meaningful coming from an atlantic writer, not to mention friedersdorf's own reputation.
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

Offline michigancat

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #460 on: April 09, 2018, 05:02:23 PM »
i think it's more meaningful coming from an atlantic writer, not to mention friedersdorf's own reputation.

it's kind of in line with what he does most of the time.

Offline Kat Kid

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #461 on: April 09, 2018, 05:03:07 PM »
btw, katkid, i commend this tweet thread to you.

https://twitter.com/ebruenig/status/983003514275328000

I read that.


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Offline sys

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #462 on: April 09, 2018, 05:32:00 PM »
my problem with the Friedsdorf piece is I felt like I had to read a dozen other articles to get a feel for how everything really went down.

i misread your post.  i thought you were saying you'd already read a dozen similar articles.
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

Offline Kat Kid

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #463 on: April 09, 2018, 05:38:44 PM »
Look at Connor's frame, and then actually read stuff Williamson writes.  Williamson is a hack that regularly just writes dumb, outrageous crap.  He is NRO's Skip Bayless and Connor is acting like this is Socrates' trial.




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Offline sys

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #464 on: April 09, 2018, 05:40:30 PM »
katkid, that doesn't seem to have been the atlantic's opinion when they hired him.
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

Offline Kat Kid

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #465 on: April 09, 2018, 10:02:11 PM »
katkid, that doesn't seem to have been the atlantic's opinion when they hired him.

I contend they didn't read any of his crap and just talked to some beltway conservative types who recommended him.

Offline michigancat

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #466 on: April 12, 2018, 09:28:27 AM »
Not a phrase I use regularly but I definitely have in the past and never made the connection that it might be offensive until now

http://amp.smokeroom.com/2018/04/12/brian-davis-russell-westbrook-cotton/?__twitter_impression=true

Offline sys

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #467 on: April 12, 2018, 10:32:32 AM »
libtards are going crazy.  between that and the lighter beer commercial thing, i swear.
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

Offline michigancat

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #468 on: April 12, 2018, 10:36:02 AM »
libtards are going crazy.  between that and the lighter beer commercial thing, i swear.
What's the lighter beer commercial thing

Offline sys

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"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

Offline michigancat

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #470 on: April 12, 2018, 10:51:02 AM »
Also, you should have said "libtards have lost their cotton-pickin' minds"

Offline sys

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #471 on: April 12, 2018, 10:52:16 AM »
Also, you should have said "libtards have lost their cotton-pickin' minds"

yesterday, i could have.
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

Online Skipper44

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #472 on: April 12, 2018, 12:09:56 PM »
Not a phrase I use regularly but I definitely have in the past and never made the connection that it might be offensive until now

http://amp.smokeroom.com/2018/04/12/brian-davis-russell-westbrook-cotton/?__twitter_impression=true
you, me and probably Brian Davis had no idea of that connection when we learned that saying watching Bugs Bunny cartoons

Offline CHONGS

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #473 on: April 12, 2018, 01:34:13 PM »
Also, you should have said "libtards have lost their cotton-pickin' minds"

yesterday, i could have.
Still can

Offline sys

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #474 on: April 13, 2018, 03:42:30 PM »
http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2018/04/andrew-sullivan-a-democracy-disappears.html


the first third is hungary/trump's america, but after that it's all anti-pc stuff.
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."