Author Topic: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!  (Read 48843 times)

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Offline Mrs. Gooch

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #375 on: December 07, 2017, 11:37:03 AM »
Generally I am a libertarian, but even I think that we need the Civil Rights Act of 1964.

Maybe places like those trampoline parks shouldn't be required to have too much handicap parking though.

Offline mocat

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #376 on: December 07, 2017, 11:54:05 AM »
I'm not saying racism is gone but I think if a business is outed as a place that doesn't serve people of color in today's world of social media,  they will be boycotted.

Batt BcKee have you ever been in the political facebook thread?

Offline Dr Rick Daris

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #377 on: December 07, 2017, 12:48:31 PM »


I guess if you can't get served at a lunch counter due to your race, you should just go to another lunch counter.

this and the rosa parks stuff are both horrible analogies. take five minutes and actually think about the differences between the two. I can't believe you guys are making me side with fsd.

Would a refusal to make a cake for an interracial or black couple be a better analogy?

It's a better one, but it's still not a good one and since I can't really think of a good one, I'd say this case actually is pretty nuanced or unique or whatever word you want to use.

as for bad analogies, how's this one- a Christian rock band is taking requests at a show and declines to play a song about sex and the devil or something and now they're in court over it and the court has decided that they also have to play songs like that because some person at their show wanted them to and if they don't then they can't keep playing shows.

his feeling is that it's not the people he has problem with, it's the message and it's one that he has deeply felt religious beliefs against. he also doesn't make cakes celebrating divorce. he say's he has also turned down homophobic type cakes because he doesn't agree with the message. should he also have to make pro kkk cakes? what about cakes celebrating the holocaust? can he say no to those? can he say no to anything?
« Last Edit: December 07, 2017, 12:54:04 PM by Dr Rick Daris »

Offline michigancat

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #378 on: December 07, 2017, 12:59:34 PM »


I guess if you can't get served at a lunch counter due to your race, you should just go to another lunch counter.

this and the rosa parks stuff are both horrible analogies. take five minutes and actually think about the differences between the two. I can't believe you guys are making me side with fsd.

Would a refusal to make a cake for an interracial or black couple be a better analogy?

It's a better one, but it's still not a good one and since I can't really think of a good one, I'd say this case actually is pretty nuanced or unique or whatever word you want to use.

as for bad analogies, how's this one- a Christian rock band is taking requests at a show and declines to play a song about sex and the devil or something and now they're in court over it and the court has decided that they also have to play songs like that because some person at their show wanted them to and if they don't then they can't keep playing shows.

the bottom line is that it's not the people he has problem with, it's the message. should he also have to make pro kkk cakes? what about cakes celebrating the holocaust? can he say no to those?


A Christian rock band singing songs is clear artistic expression, which they have a right to refuse. This case is about a guy refusing to sell a gay couple anything because they were gay.

[/quote]Cole said the dispute did not involve words or speech. “The only thing the baker knew about these customers was that they were gay,” he said. “There was no request for a design. There was no request for message. He refused to sell any wedding cake. And that’s identity-based discrimination.”[/quote]

basically, if they'd ask for a cake that depicted something like raw gay sex, he would have been well within his rights to decline. But he refused to sell them anything based on their sexual orientation.

Offline Mrs. Gooch

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #379 on: December 07, 2017, 01:02:19 PM »

as for bad analogies, how's this one- a Christian rock band is taking requests at a show and declines to play a song about sex and the devil or something and now they're in court over it and the court has decided that they also have to play songs like that because some person at their show wanted them to and if they don't then they can't keep playing shows.


A Christian rock band would not have a devil worshiping song in their repertoire. It would be more like if a devil worshiper asked them to play one of their God loving songs. They would probably do it.

Offline Dr Rick Daris

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #380 on: December 07, 2017, 01:06:52 PM »


I guess if you can't get served at a lunch counter due to your race, you should just go to another lunch counter.

this and the rosa parks stuff are both horrible analogies. take five minutes and actually think about the differences between the two. I can't believe you guys are making me side with fsd.

Would a refusal to make a cake for an interracial or black couple be a better analogy?

It's a better one, but it's still not a good one and since I can't really think of a good one, I'd say this case actually is pretty nuanced or unique or whatever word you want to use.

as for bad analogies, how's this one- a Christian rock band is taking requests at a show and declines to play a song about sex and the devil or something and now they're in court over it and the court has decided that they also have to play songs like that because some person at their show wanted them to and if they don't then they can't keep playing shows.

the bottom line is that it's not the people he has problem with, it's the message. should he also have to make pro kkk cakes? what about cakes celebrating the holocaust? can he say no to those?


A Christian rock band singing songs is clear artistic expression, which they have a right to refuse. This case is about a guy refusing to sell a gay couple anything because they were gay.

Cole said the dispute did not involve words or speech. “The only thing the baker knew about these customers was that they were gay,” he said. “There was no request for a design. There was no request for message. He refused to sell any wedding cake. And that’s identity-based discrimination.”

basically, if they'd ask for a cake that depicted something like raw gay sex, he would have been well within his rights to decline. But he refused to sell them anything based on their sexual orientation.


the case isn't actually about that, because the guy sells things to gays/lesbians/etc stuff from his store all the time and has done so for years. what he doesn't do by choice is make wedding cakes for gay weddings. he has said numerous times that he would have been more than happy to sell them anything else in the store or make them something else, but cakes for gays weddings is just something he chooses not to do. he also doesn't make cakes for divorces and has according to him turned down offers to make cakes that were anti gay/homophobic in nature.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2017, 01:10:46 PM by Dr Rick Daris »

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #381 on: December 07, 2017, 01:32:23 PM »
Also wouldn't do Halloween cakes
Hyperbolic partisan duplicitous hypocrite

Offline Dr Rick Daris

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #382 on: December 07, 2017, 01:33:38 PM »
to explain this another way....

if my wife and I went into this guys store and said that we wanted him to make a cake for our gay friends wedding, he would tell us no and sorry but he can't and won't do that.

if a gay couple went into this guys store and said that they wanted him to make a cake for their straight friends wedding, he'd say so sure no problem.

also like lib says, he also won't do Halloween cakes because again religion.

Offline catastrophe

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #383 on: December 07, 2017, 01:34:14 PM »
If you really think that the issue involved here, I hope you understand how ridiculously difficult it would be for the Supreme Court to announce a rule along the lines that you can refuse to sell to certain classes of people if they INTEND TO USE the product in a way that offends you.

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #384 on: December 07, 2017, 01:35:21 PM »
It's interesting that MichiCat continues to change the facts of the case to support his argument, even after a number of people have told him he's wrong.
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Offline catastrophe

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #385 on: December 07, 2017, 01:36:28 PM »
to explain this another way....

if my wife and I went into this guys store and said that we wanted him to make a cake for our gay friends wedding, he would tell us no and sorry but he can't and won't do that.

if a gay couple went into this guys store and said that they wanted him to make a cake for their straight friends wedding, he'd so sure no problem.

Like yea, let’s take this. What if the gay couple said they wanted it for their wedding and after getting turned down say, “oh, actually I meant my straight friend’s wedding.” Could the baker say, no way, I know what you are going to use this for mommy. (He wouldn’t say the last part but would definitely be thinking it)

Offline catastrophe

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #386 on: December 07, 2017, 01:42:33 PM »
I also hope you realize that if the Supreme Court decides this is ok, it would be perfectly fine for store owners to divide their merchandise into "For everyone" and "Not for gays" sections and put for example all the wedding stuff in the "Not for gays" section.

Offline Dr Rick Daris

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #387 on: December 07, 2017, 01:48:24 PM »
the dude and not that anyone here seems to care, would have also happily sold them a premade already on the shelf wedding cake for their gay wedding. he just wasn't willing to create one specifically for their gay wedding. again not that anyone seems to care about specifics or actually thinking about what happened in any detail within this thread.

Offline Dr Rick Daris

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #388 on: December 07, 2017, 01:52:44 PM »
If you really think that the issue involved here, I hope you understand how ridiculously difficult it would be for the Supreme Court to announce a rule along the lines that you can refuse to sell to certain classes of people if they INTEND TO USE the product in a way that offends you.

that and really none of what you're talking about today is what's being argued. I'd google the case and read an article or maybe even two/three. mix up your sources and then form some new thoughts on the subject.

Offline michigancat

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #389 on: December 07, 2017, 01:53:08 PM »
to explain this another way....

if my wife and I went into this guys store and said that we wanted him to make a cake for our gay friends wedding, he would tell us no and sorry but he can't and won't do that.

if a gay couple went into this guys store and said that they wanted him to make a cake for their straight friends wedding, he'd say so sure no problem.

I doubt he'd sell the gay couple a cake for a straight wedding but regardless I still think the baker in your scenario is in the wrong and discriminating gays.

Also, he won't sell Halloween cakes to anyone, so there's no discrimination by refusing a request for a Halloween cake. He'll sell wedding cakes to anyone but gays - that's the issue here. If he refused to sell wedding cakes to anyone there wouldn't be a problem.

the dude and not that anyone here seems to care, would have also happily sold them a premade already on the shelf wedding cake for their gay wedding. he just wasn't willing to create one specifically for their gay wedding. again not that anyone seems to care about specifics or actually thinking about what happened in any detail within this thread.

do you have a link confirming this? Because this link says no designs were discussed:

http://www.latimes.com/politics/la-na-pol-court-wedding-cake-20171205-story.html

Quote
Cole said the dispute did not involve words or speech. “The only thing the baker knew about these customers was that they were gay,” he said. “There was no request for a design. There was no request for message. He refused to sell any wedding cake. And that’s identity-based discrimination.”

(granted that is the ACLU lawyer but I would be interested to see the other side)

Offline meow meow

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #390 on: December 07, 2017, 01:56:27 PM »
to explain this another way....

if my wife and I went into this guys store and said that we wanted him to make a cake for our gay friends wedding, he would tell us no and sorry but he can't and won't do that.

if a gay couple went into this guys store and said that they wanted him to make a cake for their straight friends wedding, he'd say so sure no problem.

I doubt he'd sell the gay couple a cake for a straight wedding but regardless I still think the baker in your scenario is in the wrong and discriminating gays.

Also, he won't sell Halloween cakes to anyone, so there's no discrimination by refusing a request for a Halloween cake. He'll sell wedding cakes to anyone but gays - that's the issue here. If he refused to sell wedding cakes to anyone there wouldn't be a problem.

the dude and not that anyone here seems to care, would have also happily sold them a premade already on the shelf wedding cake for their gay wedding. he just wasn't willing to create one specifically for their gay wedding. again not that anyone seems to care about specifics or actually thinking about what happened in any detail within this thread.

do you have a link confirming this? Because this link says no designs were discussed:

http://www.latimes.com/politics/la-na-pol-court-wedding-cake-20171205-story.html

Quote
Cole said the dispute did not involve words or speech. “The only thing the baker knew about these customers was that they were gay,” he said. “There was no request for a design. There was no request for message. He refused to sell any wedding cake. And that’s identity-based discrimination.”

(granted that is the ACLU lawyer but I would be interested to see the other side)

any wedding cake, he still would have sold them something else

Offline catastrophe

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #391 on: December 07, 2017, 01:58:07 PM »
If you really think that the issue involved here, I hope you understand how ridiculously difficult it would be for the Supreme Court to announce a rule along the lines that you can refuse to sell to certain classes of people if they INTEND TO USE the product in a way that offends you.

that and really none of what you're talking about today is what's being argued. I'd google the case and read an article or maybe even two/three. mix up your sources and then form some new thoughts on the subject.

Yes, please explain.  I have not read anything suggesting the gay couple requested a particular custom design.  And if your argument is that there is a distinction between having already baked a cake and baking the SAME rough ridin' cake knowing it is going to be used for a particular purpose, then I'd like to hear why that should be any different than a restaurant saying they will not sell any catering to be used at a gay wedding but they're welcome to take whatever they want from the buffet.

Offline catastrophe

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #392 on: December 07, 2017, 02:02:15 PM »
to explain this another way....

if my wife and I went into this guys store and said that we wanted him to make a cake for our gay friends wedding, he would tell us no and sorry but he can't and won't do that.

if a gay couple went into this guys store and said that they wanted him to make a cake for their straight friends wedding, he'd so sure no problem.

Like yea, let’s take this. What if the gay couple said they wanted it for their wedding and after getting turned down say, “oh, actually I meant my straight friend’s wedding.” Could the baker say, no way, I know what you are going to use this for mommy. (He wouldn’t say the last part but would definitely be thinking it)

Also, I want to hear someone explain what line you are proposing to draw here.  This is not about the news story, it is about your own hypothetical.

Offline Mrs. Gooch

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #393 on: December 07, 2017, 02:05:42 PM »
Did they want a gay (two guys) wedding cake topper? Or just a plain wedding cake which could have been for any wedding if you looked at it?

Offline Dr Rick Daris

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #394 on: December 07, 2017, 02:08:56 PM »
to explain this another way....

if my wife and I went into this guys store and said that we wanted him to make a cake for our gay friends wedding, he would tell us no and sorry but he can't and won't do that.

if a gay couple went into this guys store and said that they wanted him to make a cake for their straight friends wedding, he'd say so sure no problem.

I doubt he'd sell the gay couple a cake for a straight wedding but regardless I still think the baker in your scenario is in the wrong and discriminating gays.

Also, he won't sell Halloween cakes to anyone, so there's no discrimination by refusing a request for a Halloween cake. He'll sell wedding cakes to anyone but gays - that's the issue here. If he refused to sell wedding cakes to anyone there wouldn't be a problem.

the dude and not that anyone here seems to care, would have also happily sold them a premade already on the shelf wedding cake for their gay wedding. he just wasn't willing to create one specifically for their gay wedding. again not that anyone seems to care about specifics or actually thinking about what happened in any detail within this thread.

do you have a link confirming this? Because this link says no designs were discussed:

http://www.latimes.com/politics/la-na-pol-court-wedding-cake-20171205-story.html

Quote
Cole said the dispute did not involve words or speech. “The only thing the baker knew about these customers was that they were gay,” he said. “There was no request for a design. There was no request for message. He refused to sell any wedding cake. And that’s identity-based discrimination.”

(granted that is the ACLU lawyer but I would be interested to see the other side)

he absolutely would sell a gay couple a cake for a straight wedding because he has no problems with straight weddings and he has no problem sellingng things to gay couples. now he wouldn't make and sell them a cake for Halloween or for a divorce just like he wouldn't make and sell a cake like that to a straight couple. it's the design and the theme and not the person or people. he is dividing between a straight wedding cake and a gay wedding cake. so in that way, the gay wedding cake is like a Halloween cake or a divorce cake to him. he won't explicitly and with knowledge make one.

while no designs were discussed, that's just because the convo didn't make it that far. the couple came into his shop with one of their moms and started looking through one of his design books. he came over and asked what he could help them with and they said they wanted him to make a cake for their wedding and he stopped them and said that he couldn't do that. they got mad and left. the link saying that he would sell off the shelf cakes for gay weddings, but not design or make one explicitly for one is below. it's towards the end.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/05/us/politics/supreme-court-same-sex-marriage-cake.html
« Last Edit: December 07, 2017, 02:37:41 PM by Dr Rick Daris »

Offline Spracne

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #395 on: December 07, 2017, 02:16:16 PM »
How come all you folks are so clueless about the facts of the case? The law arises from the facts. Ex facto jus oritur.

Offline Mrs. Gooch

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #396 on: December 07, 2017, 02:19:06 PM »
I wonder if this guy would make a Ramadan cake? Kwanza cake? Bar mitzvah cake? Quinceañera cake?

Offline chum1

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #397 on: December 07, 2017, 02:21:47 PM »
I wonder if he would bake an anti-Trump cake for Strzok.

Offline catastrophe

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #398 on: December 07, 2017, 02:31:19 PM »
I wonder if this guy would make a Ramadan cake? Kwanza cake? Bar mitzvah cake? Quinceañera cake?

Assuming he's not just a bigot (spoiler: he is), I'm sure he would not make a cake for a couple celebrating their son's first birthday if they did not have him in wedlock.  The interview process must be exhausting as he runs through all the scenarios with the customers to make sure they are not living in sin according to the Bible.

Of course, again, this is all assuming he's not just singling out this one thing because it grosses him out.

Offline K-S-U-Wildcats!

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #399 on: December 07, 2017, 02:53:50 PM »
I wonder if he would bake an anti-Trump cake for Strzok.

Assuming the cake is for Strzok's mistress, probably not.
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