Author Topic: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!  (Read 18419 times)

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Offline K-S-U-Wildcats!

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #350 on: December 06, 2017, 02:17:48 PM »
I have very conflicting feelings on this (and similar situations). Ultimately I don't really feel comfortable forcing business owners into transactions with people they don't want to do business with, but damn that leaves a lot open for horrible people like this baker.

I have similar feelings, but we tried the totally free market approach in the 60s and 70s and it became obvious that too many people are just total assholes for it to work.

Do you really think this a significant problem in this day and age? Gays are really having trouble finding a florist or a baker for their wedding (or would, without these overreaching laws)? Black people are being denied service on the pretense that the owner doesn't like their shirt color? It seems to me that we've reached the opposite end of the spectrum, or at least there is a more realistic risk that we are headed that direction, where businesses are being forced to participate in activities, ideas, and speech they disagree with.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, K-State fans could have beheaded the entire KU team at midcourt, and K-State fans would be celebrating it this morning.  They are the ISIS of Big 12 fanbases.

Offline K-S-U-Wildcats!

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #351 on: December 06, 2017, 02:18:41 PM »
A private business should absolutely be able to refuse to service to anyone they want for any reason.

I'm ok with the Civil Rights Act of 1964. K thanks. Let's leave that in place and everybody chill the eff out about gay weddings.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, K-State fans could have beheaded the entire KU team at midcourt, and K-State fans would be celebrating it this morning.  They are the ISIS of Big 12 fanbases.

Offline Mrs. Gooch

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #352 on: December 06, 2017, 02:36:49 PM »
I'd like to open a business (not sure what kind yet) that does not serve people who are not wearing pants. And then when people wearing leggings come in, I am not going to serve them.

Offline Dr Rick Daris

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #353 on: December 06, 2017, 02:40:55 PM »
I am the most pro blgt person I know (like seriously) and I'm not really sure where I stand on the whole should this guy be forced by the government to make a wedding cake for them. he says he's happy to make them absolutely anything other than that and that his religious beliefs simply do not allow him to support a marriage between two men and that in making them this very specific cake he feels like he in a way would be doing that. he'll happily make them a regular cake or brownies or whatever, just not that one thing. it's interesting to think about. I don't think it's as simple as this guy is a bigot. dunno.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2017, 03:20:44 PM by Dr Rick Daris »

Offline Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!)

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #354 on: December 06, 2017, 02:59:52 PM »
I simply cannot wrap my head around this gay couple wanting to force a guy diametrically opposed to their entire way of life to sell them something they can buy any other place.

It is such a bizarre premise.
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Offline Mrs. Gooch

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #355 on: December 06, 2017, 03:01:31 PM »
I simply cannot wrap my head around this gay couple wanting to force a guy diametrically opposed to their entire way of life to sell them something they can buy any other place.

It is such a bizarre premise.

Would you tell Rosa Parks to just ride another bus? (If there had been other buses that would allow her to ride in front.)

Offline Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!)

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #356 on: December 06, 2017, 03:05:53 PM »
Not that false analogy again  :facepalm:
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Online Phil Titola

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #357 on: December 06, 2017, 03:07:03 PM »
Not that false analogy again  :facepalm:

To people that don't think gay people are evil.... It's very much the same
« Last Edit: December 06, 2017, 03:23:43 PM by Phil Titola »

Offline Mrs. Gooch

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #358 on: December 06, 2017, 03:19:04 PM »
I guess if you can't get served at a lunch counter due to your race, you should just go to another lunch counter.

Offline Dr Rick Daris

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #359 on: December 06, 2017, 03:24:00 PM »
I guess if you can't get served at a lunch counter due to your race, you should just go to another lunch counter.

this and the rosa parks stuff are both horrible analogies. take five minutes and actually think about the differences between the two. I can't believe you guys are making me side with fsd.

Online catastrophe

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #360 on: December 06, 2017, 03:32:08 PM »
I have very conflicting feelings on this (and similar situations). Ultimately I don't really feel comfortable forcing business owners into transactions with people they don't want to do business with, but damn that leaves a lot open for horrible people like this baker.

I have similar feelings, but we tried the totally free market approach in the 60s and 70s and it became obvious that too many people are just total assholes for it to work.

Do you really think this a significant problem in this day and age? Gays are really having trouble finding a florist or a baker for their wedding (or would, without these overreaching laws)? Black people are being denied service on the pretense that the owner doesn't like their shirt color? It seems to me that we've reached the opposite end of the spectrum, or at least there is a more realistic risk that we are headed that direction, where businesses are being forced to participate in activities, ideas, and speech they disagree with.

Despite your premise that times are so much different now, you offer a soundbyte that would apply equally to a white motel owner in the 1970s deep south.

Offline Mrs. Gooch

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #361 on: December 06, 2017, 03:36:27 PM »
If the grooms were planning to put a sign next to the cake that said "Wedding cake provided by XYZ Baker". Then, yes I agree that the baker has the right to refuse to be associated with the wedding. As far as I know, they weren't planning on doing that.

Online Phil Titola

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #362 on: December 06, 2017, 03:39:29 PM »
I have very conflicting feelings on this (and similar situations). Ultimately I don't really feel comfortable forcing business owners into transactions with people they don't want to do business with, but damn that leaves a lot open for horrible people like this baker.

I have similar feelings, but we tried the totally free market approach in the 60s and 70s and it became obvious that too many people are just total assholes for it to work.

Do you really think this a significant problem in this day and age? Gays are really having trouble finding a florist or a baker for their wedding (or would, without these overreaching laws)? Black people are being denied service on the pretense that the owner doesn't like their shirt color? It seems to me that we've reached the opposite end of the spectrum, or at least there is a more realistic risk that we are headed that direction, where businesses are being forced to participate in activities, ideas, and speech they disagree with.
1962 isn't that long ago.... We are a loooooong way from this nor being a problem.

Offline michigancat

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #363 on: December 06, 2017, 04:29:57 PM »


I guess if you can't get served at a lunch counter due to your race, you should just go to another lunch counter.

this and the rosa parks stuff are both horrible analogies. take five minutes and actually think about the differences between the two. I can't believe you guys are making me side with fsd.

Would a refusal to make a cake for an interracial or black couple be a better analogy?

Online catastrophe

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #364 on: December 06, 2017, 05:21:25 PM »


I guess if you can't get served at a lunch counter due to your race, you should just go to another lunch counter.

this and the rosa parks stuff are both horrible analogies. take five minutes and actually think about the differences between the two. I can't believe you guys are making me side with fsd.

Would a refusal to make a cake for an interracial or black couple be a better analogy?

If you are a strict mormon living pre-2013 or even just take the Book of Mormon literally then that is a spot on analogy: https://www.alternet.org/belief/mormon-church-dark-skin-sign-gods-curse-no-longer

Offline renocat

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #365 on: December 07, 2017, 12:24:13 AM »
Hell dammit gay dudes don't pervert Christmas commercialization.  Create your own celebration. Criminey sakes.....
http://www.nydailynews.com/life-style/new-christmas-book-depicts-black-santa-husband-article-1.3676640
« Last Edit: December 07, 2017, 05:15:22 AM by renocat »

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #366 on: December 07, 2017, 07:29:18 AM »
Seems off topic, but I agree Reno, everyone else should be telling the same lies that I tell my children.

Online Matt Mckee

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #367 on: December 07, 2017, 07:46:59 AM »
I don't even understand the supposed "nuance" in this case.  Private businesses should be able to refuse service to anyone they want for any reason.  Just as the ultra Christian wants the right to refuse to bake cakes for gay people, I would want the right to refuse to service to neo-Nazis, Westboro Baptist members or terrible humans like K-S-U-Wildcats and Roy Moore in my business.

Online Phil Titola

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #368 on: December 07, 2017, 08:28:47 AM »
I don't even understand the supposed "nuance" in this case.  Private businesses should be able to refuse service to anyone they want for any reason.  Just as the ultra Christian wants the right to refuse to bake cakes for gay people, I would want the right to refuse to service to neo-Nazis, Westboro Baptist members or terrible humans like K-S-U-Wildcats and Roy Moore in my business.
Anyone? Black? Jew? Old? Woman?

Offline michigancat

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #369 on: December 07, 2017, 08:52:02 AM »
I don't even understand the supposed "nuance" in this case.  Private businesses should be able to refuse service to anyone they want for any reason.  Just as the ultra Christian wants the right to refuse to bake cakes for gay people, I would want the right to refuse to service to neo-Nazis, Westboro Baptist members or terrible humans like K-S-U-Wildcats and Roy Moore in my business.
So unlike K-S-U, you disagree with a major part of the Civil Rights Act of 1964.

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #370 on: December 07, 2017, 09:24:05 AM »
Yea, I get the “let businesses decide” folks, but bless their hearts most of them forget there are plenty of mumped up people and business owners out there who absolutely will go full KKK if given the legal authority.

Online Matt Mckee

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #371 on: December 07, 2017, 10:15:49 AM »
I don't even understand the supposed "nuance" in this case.  Private businesses should be able to refuse service to anyone they want for any reason.  Just as the ultra Christian wants the right to refuse to bake cakes for gay people, I would want the right to refuse to service to neo-Nazis, Westboro Baptist members or terrible humans like K-S-U-Wildcats and Roy Moore in my business.
So unlike K-S-U, you disagree with a major part of the Civil Rights Act of 1964.

In 1964 I think it was absolutely necessary.  I'm not saying racism is gone but I think if a business is outed as a place that doesn't serve people of color in today's world of social media,  they will be boycotted.

I also don't think businesses should be required to be handicap accessible.

Online Spracne

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #372 on: December 07, 2017, 10:26:48 AM »
I don't even understand the supposed "nuance" in this case.  Private businesses should be able to refuse service to anyone they want for any reason.  Just as the ultra Christian wants the right to refuse to bake cakes for gay people, I would want the right to refuse to service to neo-Nazis, Westboro Baptist members or terrible humans like K-S-U-Wildcats and Roy Moore in my business.
So unlike K-S-U, you disagree with a major part of the Civil Rights Act of 1964.

In 1964 I think it was absolutely necessary.  I'm not saying racism is gone but I think if a business is outed as a place that doesn't serve people of color in today's world of social media,  they will be boycotted.

I also don't think businesses should be required to be handicap accessible.

Depends where the business is. I'm sure a bunch of coastal types would angrily tweet, but that doesn't really affect an Alabama restauranteurs business. In terms of his local patrons, it might actually be a boon.

Nice bonus #hottake taking aim at disabled folks, too!

Offline michigancat

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #373 on: December 07, 2017, 10:27:28 AM »
I don't even understand the supposed "nuance" in this case.  Private businesses should be able to refuse service to anyone they want for any reason.  Just as the ultra Christian wants the right to refuse to bake cakes for gay people, I would want the right to refuse to service to neo-Nazis, Westboro Baptist members or terrible humans like K-S-U-Wildcats and Roy Moore in my business.
So unlike K-S-U, you disagree with a major part of the Civil Rights Act of 1964.

In 1964 I think it was absolutely necessary.  I'm not saying racism is gone but I think if a business is outed as a place that doesn't serve people of color in today's world of social media,  they will be boycotted.

One, I think you're taking a pretty extreme case for your example, and two, I think you're pretty naive as to how much people still think people of color, gays, and women are inferior.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2017, 10:48:33 AM by michigancat »

Online Phil Titola

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #374 on: December 07, 2017, 10:38:05 AM »
I don't even understand the supposed "nuance" in this case.  Private businesses should be able to refuse service to anyone they want for any reason.  Just as the ultra Christian wants the right to refuse to bake cakes for gay people, I would want the right to refuse to service to neo-Nazis, Westboro Baptist members or terrible humans like K-S-U-Wildcats and Roy Moore in my business.
So unlike K-S-U, you disagree with a major part of the Civil Rights Act of 1964.

In 1964 I think it was absolutely necessary.  I'm not saying racism is gone but I think if a business is outed as a place that doesn't serve people of color in today's world of social media,  they will be boycotted.

I also don't think businesses should be required to be handicap accessible.
1964 was not that long ago. Just look at the Trump voters.