Author Topic: Volleyball  (Read 148636 times)

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Offline ednksu

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Re: Volleyball
« Reply #200 on: November 08, 2012, 07:24:54 PM »
currently in meltdown mode about Fritz.  Same crap different match.  Absolutely horrid game plan going into this match up.  KU knew exactly where all our hitters were going, I swear I could put a X on the court and the vast majority of hits would be on it.  (x would not be the entire court :dubious:) I have to also believe the number of tip overs instead of hits had to be game plan related. No way were all those the result of adjustments to poor service (which Donahue very rarely does anyway).

jesus christ, guy

Stepping back from the keyboard for a bit has let me consider somethings, just like last season, still don't think Fritz is right.

Hitting is atrocious.  I really should find some way to review footage, but last night and all the other games I've been to let me believe that they are trained to hit to a location on the court way too much.  When KU is able to position one player to dig a lot of hits with multiple rotations, the proof is there.  Our hitters are dynamic and athletic enough to do something else, save Porubek who require a perfect set to get a decent hit and than it is going to the same spot almost every time.

Too many of last nights failures rest on Fritz's game plan.  There is no way the number of tip overs while in hitting position wasn't game plan related.  It caught KU a few times, but more often than not, they had the short play covered behind the block.  Another game plan issue or game prep issue was the block.  Absolutely horrid last night.  They were constantly biting on the fake to one hitter only to have it go to a secondary hitter who was in better position. The block was CONSTANTLY off on timing.  That level of failure at this level of play has to be game planning, thinking KU was playing fast to first hitters.  Not only that there were so many opportuntiies for in game adjustment here.  We had too many net calls from poor positioning and way too many KU rallies which were not stemmed by timeouts.  I can think of one time we scored coming out of the time out, the rest of the time out were slight interruptions to KU's charge. 
Quote from: OregonHawk
KU is right on par with Notre Dame ... when it comes to adding additional conference revenue

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Offline MakeItRain

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Re: Volleyball
« Reply #201 on: November 08, 2012, 09:20:18 PM »
currently in meltdown mode about Fritz.  Same crap different match.  Absolutely horrid game plan going into this match up.  KU knew exactly where all our hitters were going, I swear I could put a X on the court and the vast majority of hits would be on it.  (x would not be the entire court :dubious:) I have to also believe the number of tip overs instead of hits had to be game plan related. No way were all those the result of adjustments to poor service (which Donahue very rarely does anyway).

jesus christ, guy

Stepping back from the keyboard for a bit has let me consider somethings, just like last season, still don't think Fritz is right.

Hitting is atrocious.  I really should find some way to review footage, but last night and all the other games I've been to let me believe that they are trained to hit to a location on the court way too much.  When KU is able to position one player to dig a lot of hits with multiple rotations, the proof is there.  Our hitters are dynamic and athletic enough to do something else, save Porubek who require a perfect set to get a decent hit and than it is going to the same spot almost every time.

Too many of last nights failures rest on Fritz's game plan.  There is no way the number of tip overs while in hitting position wasn't game plan related.  It caught KU a few times, but more often than not, they had the short play covered behind the block.  Another game plan issue or game prep issue was the block.  Absolutely horrid last night.  They were constantly biting on the fake to one hitter only to have it go to a secondary hitter who was in better position. The block was CONSTANTLY off on timing.  That level of failure at this level of play has to be game planning, thinking KU was playing fast to first hitters.  Not only that there were so many opportuntiies for in game adjustment here.  We had too many net calls from poor positioning and way too many KU rallies which were not stemmed by timeouts.  I can think of one time we scored coming out of the time out, the rest of the time out were slight interruptions to KU's charge.

I've played and coached volleyball for 20 years.  If I could #humblebrag for a second I have had personal coaching instruction from Dr. Carl McGown, Dr. Doug Beal, Dr. Marv Dunphy, Jim McLaughlin and Hugh McCutcheon.  This is absurd.  It's opinion so I can't say you're wrong but the flawed logic is completely off the reservation.  It's VLVBIQ dressed up as something else.  I explained this after your last meltdown, either you didn't read it or didn't understand it.  You are completely barking up the wrong tree here.

Offline ednksu

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Re: Volleyball
« Reply #202 on: November 08, 2012, 10:57:26 PM »
what a rough ridin' embarrassment
the block was rough ridin' worthless all night
hitting was atrocious, completely lack of court awareness, complete lack of innovation.  KU could return the majority of our hits with one player on the court.

Yeah that's a passing issue not a hitting issue, the defense was bad.  If you don't pass you are hitting 4 balls all night long.
yeah I was discussing the hitting in relation to passing with my GF who has a higher vbiq than me.  She did note that there were many passes which left Donahue searching for any kind of a way to get it to a hitter. 

But the hitting when good sets were in place were unimaginative and predictable.  There were honestly series in the 2nd and 4th sets where KU could have had one player on the court to dig the hit.  Same spot, just awful.

Did you see Donahue's great backwards tip set in the 2nd?  Pure genius. 

I really don't know how Porubek is seeing all that much time.  Very lazy play from here tonight.  Poor footwork getting to places, reaching way too much, poor service.

Some of that KU defense is attributable to scouting.  Bechard is Fritz's mentor, he's well aware of what we run because he taught her.  They have always played us tough relative to their inferior talent.  The defense, if played well can force hitters to hit at certain spots at that point its up to one or two back row players, depending on where you're attempting to force outside hitters to defend that place, somedays are better than others.  I haven't seen KU outside ood our match to know how they are defending but I'm guessing that they are aggressively blocking line while fanning the other front row player wide & short leaving 2 back row players to defend a lot of court playing the angle off of the middle blocker.

The best way to beat this defense is to feed the middle quicks so that the blockers have to hesitate when going outside.  When your passing is trash your hitting is predictable and blockers can force you to hit to the middle of the floor.

BTW Lila is our second best hitter, I love her one of my favorite players ever.  Her issue isn't laziness its frankly her fitness or lack thereof.

this is your post from before and it in NO way corrects my position but instead adds more credibility to it. 

Your point about passing was valid once again.  They were consistently giving Donahue crap to work with.  Yet we had the MOST tip overs in our KU match compared to the rest of the season.  It was so painfully obvious that this was a game plan decision and not targets of opportunity.  When taking actual hits instead of tips, k-state was consistently slow to hit, often times going to the exact opposite of setting middle, instead opting for outside cross shots which were only targeted to one spot on the court.  That is why KU was able to cover the entire back half of the court with 2 freaking players.  When spray and pray Porubek is able to find the court by hitting down line and no one else consistently tries, there is an issue.  Their down line coverage wasn't there for the majority of the night.  They knew they could tuck in tight and block down and leave obvious lanes open because we will only hit to a few spots on the court.  There was no attempt to keep them honest by going line, aside from a few times Porubek diverted from the game plan.  I will say that, and I believe it was in the 3rd set, they did attempt to hit line off broken plays and KU did a great job of moving their block over forcing us into errors/hits OOB, but it was completely abandoned otherwise.  Now I do agree that passing is killing our offense, forcing Donahue to come up with some absolute miracle sets in order to have some sort of play.  Bad passing is square one forcing us to do certain things.  But I also believe from a game plan standpoint middle hitting is not a priority from watching where good sets are going.  Some of that might be due to passing, some of it might be due to risk/reward analysis in the face of bad passing, but a lot of it seems to be directed action (Porubek being set 3 times in a row for the same hit every time). 

I would also love to hear something about our block.  We were constantly sending 2 and 3 players up with little to no timing, biting on first action when it was painfully obvious KU was using a feint action designed to confuse the block.  When 3 girls are consistently going  up they should be able to get a piece, they consistently were not.  I don't know if we're not athletic or hvbiq enough to run the swing block they way it needs to be done, but it isn't work at all when inferior team are having a field day with the defense. 

And if you were really trained by Mclaughlin I don't see how you can agree with Fritz's service philosophy either.  Telling people that errors are acceptable is not okay. 
Quote from: OregonHawk
KU is right on par with Notre Dame ... when it comes to adding additional conference revenue

Quote from: Kim Carnes
Beer pro tip: never drink anything other than BL, coors, pbr, maybe a few others that I'm forgetting

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: Volleyball
« Reply #203 on: November 09, 2012, 12:03:44 AM »
I'll take this backwards first.  Who I received training by has no bearing as to whether or not I agree with Fritz's serving philosophy.  That's like saying since Bob Stoops coached with LHC Bill Snyder he should stand up his tight end.  If I coached high level college volleyball I think I would serve aggressively for the simple reason that since sideout scoring was eliminated a point is scored on every serve.  If you allow high level teams to essentially receive a free ball you will get killed.  I'm not sure why you see this is an issue, no matter what your serving philosophy is you're going to have serving errors, part of the game.  I could understand the angst if her team's were near the bottom of the league in serving, fact is traditionally her team's have been near the top of the league in serving.  Look it up, you'll see, maybe if you find it for yourself you will have an easier time accepting this and drop this gripe.

Now as to the body of what you're talking about, you kind of answered your own question.  If they aren't passing they aren't hitting.  Also everyone defends with two in the back.  You may have one rotation where you can play three back.  Now did Fritz or Grove see something in the video to let them know that the tip was there at certain times, maybe, sure, I guess.  However, if they did you as a player have to execute.  Whether the defense knows its coming or not a well executed tip, like a bunt in baseball, is impossible to defend.  This is the same with finding the right spots when you swing.  You as a hitter need to find the places to hit but you can't tip the swing with your shoulders too early.  I have no idea what happened last night, I'd need to see the coaches film to see what went wrong, although it is pretty easy watching the broadcast to delineate that KU is better than I'd this year.  In summary to this point, you cannot blame Fritz for her game plan, it just doesn't work in volleyball.  Game planning is a really small part of developing a great team, your system is much more important.  If you're going to freak out with every loss you should be effusive with every win.  It's not like football where the preparation and lead up can win or lose you a game if the team's are equal.  College volleyball coaches are hired to get the best players to run their system, not gameplan.

The blocking is similar.  It isn't a matter of "what's wrong with the blocking" its what happened with that block.  We are a good blocking team, 3rd in the conference since conference play started.  If they had a bad night again I'd have to see why this block was slow, or why that block floated.  We don't have a problem with blocking though, the numbers bear that out.  Sometimes you have a bad night.

Offline bones129

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Re: Volleyball
« Reply #204 on: November 09, 2012, 12:25:33 AM »
? Sorry.

Offline MakeItRain

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Offline Dugout DickStone

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Re: Volleyball
« Reply #206 on: November 12, 2012, 04:36:02 PM »
currently in meltdown mode about Fritz.  Same crap different match.  Absolutely horrid game plan going into this match up.  KU knew exactly where all our hitters were going, I swear I could put a X on the court and the vast majority of hits would be on it.  (x would not be the entire court :dubious:) I have to also believe the number of tip overs instead of hits had to be game plan related. No way were all those the result of adjustments to poor service (which Donahue very rarely does anyway).

jesus christ, guy

Stepping back from the keyboard for a bit has let me consider somethings, just like last season, still don't think Fritz is right.

Hitting is atrocious.  I really should find some way to review footage, but last night and all the other games I've been to let me believe that they are trained to hit to a location on the court way too much.  When KU is able to position one player to dig a lot of hits with multiple rotations, the proof is there.  Our hitters are dynamic and athletic enough to do something else, save Porubek who require a perfect set to get a decent hit and than it is going to the same spot almost every time.

Too many of last nights failures rest on Fritz's game plan.  There is no way the number of tip overs while in hitting position wasn't game plan related.  It caught KU a few times, but more often than not, they had the short play covered behind the block.  Another game plan issue or game prep issue was the block.  Absolutely horrid last night.  They were constantly biting on the fake to one hitter only to have it go to a secondary hitter who was in better position. The block was CONSTANTLY off on timing.  That level of failure at this level of play has to be game planning, thinking KU was playing fast to first hitters.  Not only that there were so many opportuntiies for in game adjustment here.  We had too many net calls from poor positioning and way too many KU rallies which were not stemmed by timeouts.  I can think of one time we scored coming out of the time out, the rest of the time out were slight interruptions to KU's charge.

I've played and coached volleyball for 20 years.  If I could #humblebrag for a second I have had personal coaching instruction from Dr. Carl McGown, Dr. Doug Beal, Dr. Marv Dunphy, Jim McLaughlin and Hugh McCutcheon.  This is absurd.  It's opinion so I can't say you're wrong but the flawed logic is completely off the reservation.  It's VLVBIQ dressed up as something else.  I explained this after your last meltdown, either you didn't read it or didn't understand it.  You are completely barking up the wrong tree here.

 :eek:

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: Volleyball
« Reply #207 on: November 12, 2012, 05:12:35 PM »
:emawkid:

Offline mancattanite

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Re: Volleyball
« Reply #208 on: November 12, 2012, 06:32:54 PM »
Never misunderestimate a Wildcat.

Offline joda

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Re: Volleyball
« Reply #209 on: November 12, 2012, 09:57:02 PM »
http://deadspin.com/5959549/girl-takes-volleyball-spike-off-the-face-ricochet-takes-out-spectator

:lol:

Way back in my freshman year in college I dated a girl who played juco volleyball. When I was watching one of her games one of line judges tried to run away from an errant spike and when it pegged her in the side of the head she actually went sideways in the air. Was hilarious.

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: Volleyball
« Reply #210 on: November 25, 2012, 08:39:23 PM »
Going back to Lincoln afuckingain to play UNI in the first round.  Third time to Nubb in last 4 tourney trips.  The selection committee blows.

Grats to KU hosting for the first time ever :tsc: potential second round matchup with the Wheat Shockers.

Offline bones129

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Re: Volleyball
« Reply #211 on: November 25, 2012, 11:52:42 PM »
At least we're in.

Offline sonofdaxjones

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Re: Volleyball
« Reply #212 on: November 26, 2012, 09:44:19 AM »
Resident Vball experts.   Is Fritz on the hot seat in any way?

I don't know, it just seems like the glass ceiling has been hit, albeit the Big 12 is a pretty decent Vball conference from my observation, but would it be Top 3? 


Offline MakeItRain

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Re: Volleyball
« Reply #213 on: November 26, 2012, 04:13:36 PM »
Resident Vball experts.   Is Fritz on the hot seat in any way?

I don't know, it just seems like the glass ceiling has been hit, albeit the Big 12 is a pretty decent Vball conference from my observation, but would it be Top 3?

LOL no.  If she has hit her ceiling its a pretty high ceiling.  The NCAA tournament 9 out of 12 years is good for any sport, its great for a non-revenue sport at K-State.  We've been top 25 in attendance most years, if not every single year she's been here.  I don't possibly know how anyone would expect better and know you'd get it by replacing the coach.

Also the Big 12 for the last decade has been at worst the third best conference in any given year, some times first, some times second.  This year we have 3 top 16 teams, including Kansas for the first time.  Trading Nebraska, Colorado, Mizzou, and A&M for TCU and WVU hurt, a lot.  As Nebraska and A&M are power programs, both top 16 this season, and Mizzou and Colorado have had decent successes; TCU and WVU are horrendous programs.

Side note K-State has had unreal luck with the last three volleyball coaches, Jim Moore, Jim McLaughlin, and Suzie Fritz are all phenomenal coaches.  Moore & McLaughlin have had great success after they left K-State for bigger budget programs.

Offline sonofdaxjones

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Re: Volleyball
« Reply #214 on: November 26, 2012, 05:14:15 PM »
Okay.

So, keep expectations to NCAA tourney appearences.   Don't expect conference championship trophies, and pretty much don't expect any national titles.

A nice little program.   Fair enough.

Thks

Offline jtksu

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Re: Volleyball
« Reply #215 on: November 26, 2012, 05:48:53 PM »
Going back to Lincoln afuckingain to play UNI in the first round.  Third time to Nubb in last 4 tourney trips.  The selection committee blows.

Grats to KU hosting for the first time ever :tsc: potential second round matchup with the Wheat Shockers.

Was WSU qualifying as an at-large a bit of a suprise?  Seems like the local media made it seem as if winning the tournament was their only shot...  Then again, I haven't followed the team as closely this year as I had previously.

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: Volleyball
« Reply #216 on: November 27, 2012, 06:33:07 PM »
Quote from: sonofdaxjones link=topic=15182.msg678315#msg678315=1353971655
Okay.

So, keeping expectations to NCAA tourney appearences.   Don't expect conference championship trophies and pretty much don't expect any national titles.

A nice little program.   Fair enough.

Thks

In non revenue sports if you want national titles and conference championships you have to spend accordingly.  Are you proposing that K-State utilize the resources that Nebraska, Florida, Texas, UT, etc. has?  You look at DOE equity reports, certainly you are aware of the correlation of Olympic sports spending and success.  There's no coach em up DITRs in womens sports, I cant recall even once in volleyball & WBB where the best talent didnt win.

If you fire coaches that make the tournament 9 out of 12 years, consistently be in the top 25 in attendance, win a conference title every decade or so, and have a top 20 program your're more likely to find someone who will fall on their face than someone who will duplicate that.

If you're unhappy with the direction of the program I'd suggest you pony up the cash to level the playing field and make this job more attractive to one of the other top 20 coaches, other than the one we have.

Fantastic troll though

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: Volleyball
« Reply #217 on: November 27, 2012, 06:54:47 PM »
Going back to Lincoln afuckingain to play UNI in the first round.  Third time to Nubb in last 4 tourney trips.  The selection committee blows.

Grats to KU hosting for the first time ever :tsc: potential second round matchup with the Wheat Shockers.

Was WSU qualifying as an at-large a bit of a suprise?  Seems like the local media made it seem as if winning the tournament was their only shot...  Then again, I haven't followed the team as closely this year as I had previously.

By local media I'm going to assume you mean oscar Haertl.  I give him credit for being the only local guy who even attempts to talk volleyball, although his interest is more about WSU homerism.  That being said he doesn't anything about volleyball at all.  WSU was on the bubble, but fairly strong on the right side.  Their RPI was 40, thats pretty safe in volleyball because many conference don't have post season tournaments so there isn't bid stealing like in basketball.  The selection committee uses RPI heavily in volleyball & are pretty open about it.

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: Volleyball
« Reply #218 on: November 29, 2012, 05:12:02 PM »
Nebraska fans cheering their asses off for UNI, sounds like a home game for them.  Very Huskero.

Offline ednksu

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Quote from: OregonHawk
KU is right on par with Notre Dame ... when it comes to adding additional conference revenue

Quote from: Kim Carnes
Beer pro tip: never drink anything other than BL, coors, pbr, maybe a few others that I'm forgetting

Offline ednksu

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Re: Volleyball
« Reply #220 on: November 29, 2012, 05:57:17 PM »
only got to watch the 3rd set.  Same issues all season long.

13-17 service error rally killed
19-21 service error rally killed
20-23 terrible blocking working inside to out on an outside hitter coming far from the side.  ball is only going out to the side.
20-24 hit right into block because our outside hitter only go to one spot on the court.  Line was open by a full blocker width.


And I really think MiR is wrong about what it takes to achieve this level of success in volleyball. 
Quote from: OregonHawk
KU is right on par with Notre Dame ... when it comes to adding additional conference revenue

Quote from: Kim Carnes
Beer pro tip: never drink anything other than BL, coors, pbr, maybe a few others that I'm forgetting

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: Volleyball
« Reply #221 on: November 29, 2012, 06:00:26 PM »
:flush:  completely awful mercy killing to end the season

And I really think MiR is wrong about what it takes to achieve this level of success in volleyball. 

What the eff does this mean?

Offline ednksu

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Re: Volleyball
« Reply #222 on: November 29, 2012, 06:12:23 PM »
:flush:  completely awful mercy killing to end the season

And I really think MiR is wrong about what it takes to achieve this level of success in volleyball. 

What the eff does this mean?
Sorry I'm a bit distracted.

In your previous post you put a lot of effort in explaining to Dax the level of success Fritz has had.  I'm not going to get into top tier WVB teams because the parity systems in any women's sports are so out of whack.  I think to be a solid second tier team that collects a conference champ every 5 to 8 years or so requires less than you expect.  I'm honestly not sure what other teams have that we don't to preface my points.  We now have a dedicated facility, although its not glitzy does have some good attributes. I don't know what access the WVB team has to various training facilities.  I'll assume they have the run of Ahearn?  That seems like a fair enough foundation for a good second tier team.   I would say there is a significant amount of coaching up players to make wins.  I think your explanation of why KU is able to give us stiff competition and in this year dominate us, twice, shows this talking point is weak.  Now I will grant that you can't coach em up into league titles yearly or compete with the PSUs of the WVB world consistently.  Are we than talking about coach pay to retain or get the best coaches?  Maybe you could speak to the pay scales here.  I would suspect there is a significant gap between the first tier teams and the second tier teams.  I don't know where Fritz's pay would fit into that hierarchy. 

Anyways, just some thoughts.  As you put it, a fine mercy killing for this season. 
Quote from: OregonHawk
KU is right on par with Notre Dame ... when it comes to adding additional conference revenue

Quote from: Kim Carnes
Beer pro tip: never drink anything other than BL, coors, pbr, maybe a few others that I'm forgetting

Offline sonofdaxjones

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Re: Volleyball
« Reply #223 on: November 29, 2012, 07:09:53 PM »
K-State V-Ball has a nice dressing room and players lounge.   There have been multiple upgrades to Ahearn:  new seating, paint job, scoreboards, they got a new court a few years ago.   Certainly a very fine facility for Volleyball has been created.   

We should expect more than that embarrassment this afternoon.


Offline MakeItRain

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Re: Volleyball
« Reply #224 on: November 29, 2012, 08:44:23 PM »
Quote
author=ednksu link=topic=15182.msg680807#msg680807 date=1354234343]
:flush: completely awful mercy killing to end the season

And I really think MiR is wrong about what it takes to achieve this level of success in volleyball. 

What the eff does this mean?
Sorry I'm a bit distracted.

In your previous post you put a lot of effort in explaining to Dax the level of success Fritz has had.  I'm not going to get into top tier WVB teams because the parity systems in any women's sports are so out of whack.  I think to be a solid second tier team that collects a conference champ every 5 to 8 years or so requires less than you expect.  I'm honestly not sure what other teams have that we don't to preface my points.  We now have a dedicated facility, although its not glitzy does have some good attributes. I don't know what access the WVB team has to various training facilities.  I'll assume they have the run of Ahearn?  That seems like a fair enough foundation for a good second tier team.   I would say there is a significant amount of coaching up players to make wins.  I think your explanation of why KU is able to give us stiff competition and in this year dominate us, twice, shows this talking point is weak.  Now I will grant that you can't coach em up into league titles yearly or compete with the PSUs of the WVB world consistently.  Are we than talking about coach pay to retain or get the best coaches?  Maybe you could speak to the pay scales here.  I would suspect there is a significant gap between the first tier teams and the second tier teams.  I don't know where Fritz's pay would fit into that hierarchy. 

Anyways, just some thoughts.  As you put it, a fine mercy killing for this season.

K-State V-Ball has a nice dressing room and players lounge.   There have been multiple upgrades to Ahearn:  new seating, paint job, scoreboards, they got a new court a few years ago.   Certainly a very fine facility for Volleyball has been created.   

We should expect more than that embarrassment this afternoon.



I'll address dax' post first since it appears once again to be a troll, because frankly you are smarter than this.  It is painfully obvious that you haven't seen any of the facilities you are touting.  Did you seriously list a scoreboard that is more limited than some high school boards and some purple paint on red benches as improvements that should help the program?  Stupid and you know it.  That dressing room upgrade improved dressing rooms that were 50 years old.  I've seen our facility and others.  Instead of assuming that we have a "very fine facility" I'll tell you firsthand that we have an okay facility.  Ahearn is good simply because of the fans and they are there because we've won consistently for 15 years.

Even if we had amazing facilities that has no correlation to on field results and you know that, absurd for you to attempt to.

Edn, there isn't a second tier program that wins the conference every 5-8 years, those are top programs.  If you know of a second tier program in volleyball, let me know.  I can't think of one in basketball either.  We are firmly in the second tier.  We have been a top 20 team for 15 years.

Money is important for not only head coaches salaries, but for assistant salaries and most importantly recruiting.  Our budget is okay, we are absolutely out performing our peers in this regard.

I have no idea what you meant by your KU point.  They beat us this year because they are better.  I don't know what that has to do with the state of the program.  Their coach, Ray Bechard, has been at KU for 15 years and this is literally the first season hes been better than KSU.  You'll have to explain that analogy to me.  Are you proposing we strive to their lack of long term success?

Like I said before, why would you not only fire but even consider firing someone who has consistently out performed her peers.  She's fourth in the history of the conference in wins, the program is third in conference history in wins.  How confident are you that someone could match that?

As far as today goes, I'd love to know what is going on behind the scenes, that completely turned this season around.  We looked like final four contenders, now they are as bad as I've seen a K-State team ever.  Suzie said earlier in the week that some players had some personal stuff, I know of one, but certainly it isn't causing this, I don't think.  Anyway I'm glad this season is over so we can move on to spring ball & next season.  Can't believe we're at this point.