Author Topic: K-State basketball and the tipping point of the fulcrum...  (Read 31057 times)

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Offline kso_FAN

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K-State basketball and the tipping point of the fulcrum...
« on: January 03, 2015, 08:45:31 PM »
It has come.

Now I realize this is really no surprise to most posters here. Even the most optimistic toward oscar knew this time would come, some thought much sooner and some much later. Some made it a point to make comparisons and some ignored it. But for all of us "it" has always been there; comparing how oscar is doing at K-State and how Frank is doing building his own program from scratch.

Its safe to say that fulcrum has clearly shifted enough for the balance to swing; the better program now resides in Columbia, SC and not Manhattan, KS. One team sits outside the top 100 in kenpom and one sits in the top 30. One has won 7 straight games, including 2 wins over Big 12 teams. One has lost 3 straight, and looks like it will struggle to win 2 games in the Big 12. One has a pair of sophomores leading the program and turning into the best players in their league. The other has promising sophomores underachieving, struggling, and maybe even looking for a new place to play.

Frank's residue of toughness was real and its carryover had enormous benefits for oscar, one that he rode all the way to a league title (shared, but still). Since then the highlights have been sparse with a few nice wins over Gonzaga, Kansas, and Iowa State in the past year, but no NCAA tournament wins and then the disaster that has become this year's team. In four of the last seven games we've seen K-State teams fail to score 20 points in a half. We now see a K-State team at .500 at the latest point in a season since February of 2004. We see a K-State defense allowing a worse eFG% than any K-State team since kenpom started his rating system in 2002.

I once wrote stuff like this and this that highlighted some of the strengths of Frank Martin's teams. I won't deny that Martin recruited well for Kansas State, but let's not forget that not a single player from his tenure is currently playing NBA basketball. No doubt Martin had good players, but he built this program on toughness and effort; controlling things like offensive boards and getting to the free throw line while playing tenacious defense. His players bought in and things like effort and toughness were things you saw consistently from K-State basketball teams.

Even this year, K-State still does some things well under Weber.  We rebound decent (both sides), we shoot threes, surprisingly this year's team gets to the FT line a bunch, and we force TOs at a high rate . However, the eFG% stat (allowing 51.6%) highlights a huge problem that we now see with this team. Despite turning it over a bit, opponents find it far too easy to run offense and get good shots (both 2s and 3s) against K-State. As long as you allow teams to get comfortable and shoot at that rate you aren't going to be very good because shooting is obviously the most important factor for offensive success. Despite having K-State's best shooting team (51.9%) in the kenpom era and a FT rate of over 50%, the Cats turn it over on over 1/5 of their possessions leading to often ugly and mediocre offense.

Meanwhile Frank's team is allowing teams to shoot only 39.9% and he has one of the Top 10 efficiency defenses in the country while continuing to oboard in typical junkyard dog fashion. Frank's tough brand of basketball is clearly in place with a core of young players and it looks like South Carolina will be a competitive basketball program for years to come. Weber's brand looks to be firmly in place as well, where inconsistency is the only thing that's consistent while the coach rarely takes ownership for the problems while squeaking his way through vague explanations.

For K-State basketball a long season awaits, likely the first below .500 finish in over a decade and the end of an 8 year streak of postseason basketball. The sad transition that most expected is finally here.

Its a sad day for K-State basketball.



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« Last Edit: January 03, 2015, 09:08:39 PM by ksu_FAN »

Offline Pete

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Re: K-State basketball and the tipping point of the fulcrum...
« Reply #1 on: January 03, 2015, 08:49:22 PM »
It has come.

Now I realize this really no surprise to most posters here. Even the most optimistic toward oscar knew this time would come, some thought much sooner and some much later. Some made it a point to make comparisons and some ignored it. But for all of us "it" has always been there; comparing how oscar is doing at K-State and how Frank is doing building his own program from scratch.

Its safe to say that fulcrum has clearly shifted enough for the balance to swing; the better program now resides in Columbia, SC and not Manhattan, KS. One team sits outside the top 100 in kenpom and one sits in the top 30. One has won 7 straight games, including 2 wins over Big 12 teams. One has lost 3 straight, and looks like it will struggle to win 2 games in the Big 12. One has a pair of sophomores leading the program and turning into the best players in their league. The other has promising sophomores underachieving, struggling, and maybe even looking for a new place to play.

Frank's residue of toughness was real and its carryover had enormous benefits for oscar, one that he rode all the way to a league title (shared, but still). Since then the highlights have been sparse with a few nice wins over Gonzaga, Kansas, and Iowa State in the past year, but no NCAA tournament wins and then the disaster that has become this year's team. In four of the last seven games we've seen K-State teams fail to score 20 points in a half. We now see a K-State team at .500 at the latest point in a season since February of 2004. We see a K-State defense allowing a worse eFG% than any K-State team since kenpom started his rating system in 2002.

I once wrote stuff like this and this that highlighted some of the strengths of Frank Martin's teams. I won't deny that Martin recruited well for Kansas State, but let's not forget that not a single player from his tenure is currently playing NBA basketball. No doubt Martin had good players, but he built this program on toughness and effort; controlling things like offensive boards and getting to the free throw line while playing tenacious defense. His players bought in and things like effort and toughness were things you saw consistently from K-State basketball teams.

Even this year, K-State still does some things well under Weber.  We rebound decent (both sides), we shoot threes, surprisingly this year's team gets to the FT line a bunch, and we force TOs at a high rate . However, the eFG% stat (allowing 51.6%) highlights a huge problem that we now see with this team. Despite turning it over a bit, opponents find it far too easy to run offense and get good shots (both 2s and 3s) against K-State. As long as you allow teams to get comfortable and shoot at that rate you aren't going to be very good because shooting is obviously the most important factor for offensive success. Despite having K-State's best shooting team (51.9%) in the kenpom era and a FT rate of over 50%, the Cats turn it over on over 1/5 of their possessions leading to often ugly and mediocre offense.

Meanwhile Frank's team is allowing teams to shoot only 39.9% and he has one of the Top 10 efficiency defenses in the country while continuing to oboard in typical junkyard dog fashion. Frank's tough brand of basketball is clearly in place with a core of young players and it looks like South Carolina will be a competitive basketball program for years to come. Weber's brand looks to be firmly in place as well, where inconsistency is the only thing that's consistent while the coach rarely takes ownership for the problems while squeaking his way through vague explanations.

For K-State basketball a long season awaits, likely the first below .500 finish in over a decade and the end of an 8 year streak of postseason basketball. The sad transition that most expected is finally here.

Its a sad day for K-State basketball.



In first.

Now I am going to read all of this.

Offline Stevesie60

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Re: K-State basketball and the tipping point of the fulcrum...
« Reply #2 on: January 03, 2015, 08:53:53 PM »
I hate it so much, but take slight solace in telling tucks "I told you so".

Offline kso_FAN

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Re: K-State basketball and the tipping point of the fulcrum...
« Reply #3 on: January 03, 2015, 08:57:07 PM »
I mean, I know I'm ridiculous. I tried to let myself get over Frank and the early success from oscar while Frank struggled helped, I won't lie about that. I'm an optimist and I tried to move on. I wanted oscar to succeed so it would be easier to do so.

But Frank was nearly a perfect fit for K-State. An approach to the game built on toughness and effort.

And we (Currie) let it go because of a stupid ego clash.

The reality of today made it all too real again for me.

Offline chum1

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Re: K-State basketball and the tipping point of the fulcrum...
« Reply #4 on: January 03, 2015, 08:59:28 PM »
 :rolleyes:

Offline bones129

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Re: K-State basketball and the tipping point of the fulcrum...
« Reply #5 on: January 03, 2015, 08:59:43 PM »
These are indeed sad times.   :frown:

Offline Pete

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Re: K-State basketball and the tipping point of the fulcrum...
« Reply #6 on: January 03, 2015, 09:00:14 PM »
Loved it. 

I would be a joy to hear the OP read by Morgan Freeman or Tom Rinaldi or such. 

Offline Pete

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Re: K-State basketball and the tipping point of the fulcrum...
« Reply #7 on: January 03, 2015, 09:01:10 PM »

Offline ednksu

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Re: K-State basketball and the tipping point of the fulcrum...
« Reply #8 on: January 03, 2015, 09:01:59 PM »
It scares me that it will take more than 1 season (this season) for the oscar lovers to get it.  It will likely take multiple seasons of this before we reach a tipping point.  What scares me the most is that we will be looking for a new football coach at that point, we'll be mired in mediocrity, and no one will care.  K-State basketball could be such an after thought because of our horrible non-combo tuck fan base that we could be on the precipice of a decade  or longer period of not just mediocre, but bad basketball.   
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Offline yoman

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Re: K-State basketball and the tipping point of the fulcrum...
« Reply #9 on: January 03, 2015, 09:02:41 PM »
I mean, I know I'm ridiculous. I tried to let myself get over Frank and the early success from oscar while Frank struggled helped, I won't lie about that. I'm an optimist and I tried to move on. I wanted oscar to succeed so it would be easier to do so.

But Frank was nearly a perfect fit for K-State. An approach to the game built on toughness and effort.

And we (Currie) let it go because of a stupid ego clash.

The reality of today made it all too real again for me.

As always _FWN, well stated. No matter what some may think, K-State basketball hurting does not make anyone on this board happy. This board and KSUfans before it to a certain extent rose to prominence through K-State basketball. It hurts all of us to has that part of our lives that provided so much joy, stripped down to this level.
I think this yoman guy is on to something....

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Re: K-State basketball and the tipping point of the fulcrum...
« Reply #10 on: January 03, 2015, 09:06:23 PM »
i dont like oscar and i want our basketball program to be good again.  this is a sad day _FAN.  having just finished watching that pathetic game a little bit ago this stuff makes me sad.  :cry:

Offline Panjandrum

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Re: K-State basketball and the tipping point of the fulcrum...
« Reply #11 on: January 03, 2015, 09:21:41 PM »
When you lose _FAN, you may as well warm up the coaching search.

Offline Jabeez

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Re: K-State basketball and the tipping point of the fulcrum...
« Reply #12 on: January 03, 2015, 09:21:44 PM »
Went to a game in Columbia, SC last week to watch frank coach.  It was bittersweet, he barely yelled, not a single cuss word. But they're very good in person, the foreigners they have are good, and no one in columbia cares except for gamecock jesus.




Offline kso_FAN

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Re: K-State basketball and the tipping point of the fulcrum...
« Reply #13 on: January 03, 2015, 09:35:04 PM »
When you lose _FAN, you may as well warm up the coaching search.

In my lifetime...
Altman. His final year was my first year at K-State. His seat was hot, but I didn't want him fired. I wasn't disappointed when he left. 
Asbury. He lost me on February 1st, 1999; we lost 46-69 to Kansas in a game we were favored to win (really). BBSing was in its infancy, but I remember making a post about it somewhere. He was fired March 11th, 2000.
Wooly. He lost me on January 11th, 2006; we lost 42-57 to Nebraska. I posted about it. He was fired March 9th, 2006.

Offline Panjandrum

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Re: K-State basketball and the tipping point of the fulcrum...
« Reply #14 on: January 03, 2015, 09:37:15 PM »
When you lose _FAN, you may as well warm up the coaching search.

In my lifetime...
Altman. His final year was my first year at K-State. His seat was hot, but I didn't want him fired. I wasn't disappointed when he left. 
Asbury. He lost me on February 1st, 1999; we lost 46-69 to Kansas in a game we were favored to win (really). BBSing was in its infancy, but I remember making a post about it somewhere. He was fired March 11th, 2000.
Wooly. He lost me on January 11th, 2006; we lost 42-57 to Nebraska. I posted about it. He was fired March 9th, 2006.

It's going to take something monumental to get him fired this year, but I think next year is very possible.

Offline michigancat

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Re: K-State basketball and the tipping point of the fulcrum...
« Reply #15 on: January 03, 2015, 09:39:21 PM »
When you lose _FAN, you may as well warm up the coaching search.

In my lifetime...
Altman. His final year was my first year at K-State. His seat was hot, but I didn't want him fired. I wasn't disappointed when he left. 
Asbury. He lost me on February 1st, 1999; we lost 46-69 to Kansas in a game we were favored to win (really). BBSing was in its infancy, but I remember making a post about it somewhere. He was fired March 11th, 2000.
Wooly. He lost me on January 11th, 2006; we lost 42-57 to Nebraska. I posted about it. He was fired March 9th, 2006.

It's going to take something monumental to get him fired this year, but I think next year is very possible.
We'll likely have a better record next year. Tough to fire a coach on the upswing.

Offline star seed 7

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Re: K-State basketball and the tipping point of the fulcrum...
« Reply #16 on: January 03, 2015, 09:40:10 PM »
i've only watched like 2 games this year so i feel left out about this whole meltdown  :frown:
Hyperbolic partisan duplicitous hypocrite

Offline pissclams

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Re: K-State basketball and the tipping point of the fulcrum...
« Reply #17 on: January 03, 2015, 09:40:38 PM »
we didn't lose frank, the dude left


Cheesy Mustache QB might make an appearance.

New warning: Don't get in a fight with someone who doesn't even need to bother to buy ink.

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: K-State basketball and the tipping point of the fulcrum...
« Reply #18 on: January 03, 2015, 09:45:53 PM »
Please change your name to _FWN, please.

Offline Panjandrum

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Re: K-State basketball and the tipping point of the fulcrum...
« Reply #19 on: January 03, 2015, 09:47:47 PM »
When you lose _FAN, you may as well warm up the coaching search.

In my lifetime...
Altman. His final year was my first year at K-State. His seat was hot, but I didn't want him fired. I wasn't disappointed when he left. 
Asbury. He lost me on February 1st, 1999; we lost 46-69 to Kansas in a game we were favored to win (really). BBSing was in its infancy, but I remember making a post about it somewhere. He was fired March 11th, 2000.
Wooly. He lost me on January 11th, 2006; we lost 42-57 to Nebraska. I posted about it. He was fired March 9th, 2006.

It's going to take something monumental to get him fired this year, but I think next year is very possible.
We'll likely have a better record next year. Tough to fire a coach on the upswing.

If Foster leaves (which is a big assumption), we lose Gip and Nino, we don't get any help/improvement at PG, etc.

Offline michigancat

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Re: K-State basketball and the tipping point of the fulcrum...
« Reply #20 on: January 03, 2015, 09:49:30 PM »
When you lose _FAN, you may as well warm up the coaching search.

In my lifetime...
Altman. His final year was my first year at K-State. His seat was hot, but I didn't want him fired. I wasn't disappointed when he left. 
Asbury. He lost me on February 1st, 1999; we lost 46-69 to Kansas in a game we were favored to win (really). BBSing was in its infancy, but I remember making a post about it somewhere. He was fired March 11th, 2000.
Wooly. He lost me on January 11th, 2006; we lost 42-57 to Nebraska. I posted about it. He was fired March 9th, 2006.

It's going to take something monumental to get him fired this year, but I think next year is very possible.
We'll likely have a better record next year. Tough to fire a coach on the upswing.

If Foster leaves (which is a big assumption), we lose Gip and Nino, we don't get any help/improvement at PG, etc.
Well if Foster leaves he definitely gets another year. I mean he built the team around that guy and he turned out to be an FP, TC, etc.

Offline EMAWican

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Re: K-State basketball and the tipping point of the fulcrum...
« Reply #21 on: January 03, 2015, 09:50:54 PM »
I'm just glad FAN made this post so that Weber gets fired within two months.

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: K-State basketball and the tipping point of the fulcrum...
« Reply #22 on: January 03, 2015, 09:55:39 PM »
When you lose _FAN, you may as well warm up the coaching search.

In my lifetime...
Altman. His final year was my first year at K-State. His seat was hot, but I didn't want him fired. I wasn't disappointed when he left. 
Asbury. He lost me on February 1st, 1999; we lost 46-69 to Kansas in a game we were favored to win (really). BBSing was in its infancy, but I remember making a post about it somewhere. He was fired March 11th, 2000.
Wooly. He lost me on January 11th, 2006; we lost 42-57 to Nebraska. I posted about it. He was fired March 9th, 2006.

It's going to take something monumental to get him fired this year, but I think next year is very possible.
We'll likely have a better record next year. Tough to fire a coach on the upswing.

If Foster leaves (which is a big assumption), we lose Gip and Nino, we don't get any help/improvement at PG, etc.

Even if all that happens we will absolutely be better next year, it's going to be very difficult to be worse. This season as it sits now, is completely unforseen at any point in the Weber tenure. No matter how long he will be here, this year from the first will be wild deviations from the mean. We expected Wooly, next year will resemble that more.

Offline nicname

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Re: K-State basketball and the tipping point of the fulcrum...
« Reply #23 on: January 03, 2015, 10:04:27 PM »
we didn't lose frank, the dude left

This is true, but it's hard not to compare, especially since so many K-State fans really appreciated what Frank meant to our program and school. Even still, there were quite a few who thought maybe Frank's time was done at K-State regardless of fault. There were questions even after Frank left. Who was K-State going to hire? What was the short list? Would they give Underwood a shot? What about oscar Pearl?

It would be interesting to see some of the coaches that were trotted out there as ideas and how they are doing currently.

If there was a gif of nicname thwarting the attempted-flag-taker and then gesturing him to suck it, followed by motioning for all of Hilton Shelter to boo him louder, it'd be better than that auburn gif.

Offline nicname

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Re: K-State basketball and the tipping point of the fulcrum...
« Reply #24 on: January 03, 2015, 10:04:38 PM »
Please change your name to _FWN, please.
If there was a gif of nicname thwarting the attempted-flag-taker and then gesturing him to suck it, followed by motioning for all of Hilton Shelter to boo him louder, it'd be better than that auburn gif.