Author Topic: Trump owns Russia  (Read 756526 times)

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Offline star seed 7

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Re: Trump owns Russia
« Reply #6350 on: July 16, 2018, 04:05:57 PM »
Sometimes it's McCain's fault that dax supports a treasonous president
Hyperbolic partisan duplicitous hypocrite

Offline sonofdaxjones

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Re: Trump owns Russia
« Reply #6351 on: July 16, 2018, 04:12:32 PM »
Sometimes it's McCain's fault that dax supports a treasonous president

It doesn't quite rise to the treasonous level of knowingly allowing a foreign power to hack our political process, but I would listen to an argument that Trump could have committed treason.


Offline sys

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Re: Trump owns Russia
« Reply #6352 on: July 16, 2018, 04:48:54 PM »
I believe people are making a big deal about Putin and "Russia" only to use as talking points for whatever they feel about Obama or Clinton or Trump.

i'd go to effort of convincing you, but you live in washington, so it doesn't matter what you think. 
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

Offline star seed 7

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Hyperbolic partisan duplicitous hypocrite

Online steve dave

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Re: Trump owns Russia
« Reply #6354 on: July 16, 2018, 04:54:45 PM »

Online Trim

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Re: Trump owns Russia
« Reply #6355 on: July 16, 2018, 05:10:55 PM »
I believe people are making a big deal about Putin and "Russia" only to use as talking points for whatever they feel about Obama or Clinton or Trump.

i'd go to effort of convincing you, but you live in washington, so it doesn't matter what you think. 

I'd be happy to read a concise but comprehensive article setting me straight.  I might need to distinguish what I gather are the 2 wrongs here - 1) Putin doing things to help dictate who would be US president, for whatever end that gets to, and 2) Trump intentionally cooperating or being too dumb to know he was getting took.

On the former, everyone had some preference who would win and that preference is generally based on what's in one's best interests.  In Putin's Russia's case, it was to eliminate sanctions and get some perceived PR benefit?

As to Trump, I guess I don't see what makes this much worse than any other mumped up thing he's done or any election cheating done by anyone.  I have the impression that people yell RUSSIANS and TREASON to make it seem worse and to get people all fired up like it's still the Cold War and direct the anger at Trump. 

If he cheated to win or at least allowed himself to benefit from others cheating to get the desired result, the results should be corrected.  But I could do without the Cold War reboot.

Speaking of, I hope Creed II is about Apollo's kid getting revenge for his dad getting killed, not USA-USA-USA vs. evil Russia.

Offline LickNeckey

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Re: Trump owns Russia
« Reply #6356 on: July 16, 2018, 05:17:04 PM »
man remember when Pubs were super pissed that Obama bowed to an ally.

really have came a long ways

Offline sys

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Re: Trump owns Russia
« Reply #6357 on: July 16, 2018, 05:19:49 PM »
I'd be happy to read a concise but comprehensive article setting me straight. 

https://www.vox.com/2018/6/11/17438386/trump-russia-COLUSION
https://www.cnbc.com/video/2018/05/23/trump-russia-ties-in-plain-sight.html

these are a little dated now, but decent background for trump-russia connections stuff.
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

Offline Spracne

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Re: Trump owns Russia
« Reply #6358 on: July 16, 2018, 05:20:40 PM »
This Putin interview on FNC happening right now is fascinating...

Offline sonofdaxjones

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Re: Trump owns Russia
« Reply #6359 on: July 16, 2018, 05:40:47 PM »
https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/07/muellers-latest-indictments-russians-politicized-pointless/

Make no mistake: This is nakedly politicized law enforcement. There is absolutely no chance any of the Russian officials charged will ever see the inside of an American courtroom. The indictment is a strictly political document by which the special counsel seeks to justify the existence of his superfluous investigation.

As is so often the case in today’s politicized Justice Department, Rosenstein was trying to make a different political point. As he went on to note, if people whom we have formally charged are presumed innocent, then, a fortiori, people who have not been accused — implicitly, Rosenstein was talking about President Trump — must also be presumed innocent. But, see, you can’t make that point without stepping on the political purpose of Friday’s charade: We have taken the not only pointless but reckless step of indicting operatives of a hostile foreign power who cannot be prosecuted and whose schemes could easily have been exposed — and, in fact, have been exposed, multiple times — in public government reports; so now, due-process rules oblige us to caution you that we must presume the Russians did not do what we have formally accused them of doing. They are entitled to that presumption unless and until we convict them in court . . . which is never going to happen.

This underscores what we have been arguing here since before Mueller was appointed: There was no need and no basis in federal regulations for a special counsel.

A special counsel is supposed to be appointed only when there are (a) a concrete factual basis to believe federally prosecutable crimes have been committed, calling for a criminal investigation, and (b) a conflict of interest that prevents the Justice Department from conducting the criminal investigation.


Lacking the requisite basis to conduct a criminal investigation, the Justice Department used its counterintelligence mission as a pretext for appointing a special counsel. This was grossly improper: (1) Counterintelligence work, which is geared at thwarting the operations of hostile foreign powers, is not the prosecutor work of building criminal cases; (2) not surprisingly, then, there is no authority in the regulations to assign a special counsel to a counterintelligence investigation; and (3) because counterintelligence authorities do not afford Americans the due-process protections required in criminal investigations, the Justice Department is not permitted to use counterintelligence as a pretext for conducting what is actually an effort to build a criminal prosecution.

The first is that the new indictment shows we needed Mueller to get to the bottom of Russia’s perfidy. This is false: There is nothing new in Mueller’s indictment, his participation was unnecessary to discover what our counterintelligence investigators have learned, and the intelligence they have gathered should not have been put in an indictment — aggression by hostile foreign powers is not a law-enforcement issue, and it is a mockery of the justice system to charge foreign aggressors and pretend we presume them innocent of their attacks against our country.

I suppose Vlad could deport a couple of the GRU people to the U.S, have them show up in court with counsel and then force the United States Government to produce the evidence (that was obtained the United States Government itself, not a 3rd party).


Online Trim

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Re: Trump owns Russia
« Reply #6360 on: July 16, 2018, 05:45:32 PM »
I'd be happy to read a concise but comprehensive article setting me straight. 

https://www.vox.com/2018/6/11/17438386/trump-russia-COLUSION
https://www.cnbc.com/video/2018/05/23/trump-russia-ties-in-plain-sight.html

these are a little dated now, but decent background for trump-russia connections stuff.


I believe that Trump and his campaign cheated and/or accepted the rewards of other people doing things to help him win, and that the fellow cheaters or other people included Russian government people and semi-regular Russians.  I think they also included Americans and people from other countries.  And I assume the Clinton campaign probably cheated in some ways too.

I'm not horrified by the "Russia" aspect of any of that.  The cheating should be remedied.

Offline chum1

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Re: Trump owns Russia
« Reply #6361 on: July 16, 2018, 05:54:52 PM »
I think people are overall more concerned about national security in general than the 2016 election. And then you have some of the more educated types worried about the authoritarian direction of more and more governments around the world like pre WWII.

Offline sys

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Re: Trump owns Russia
« Reply #6362 on: July 16, 2018, 05:58:03 PM »
I'm not horrified by the "Russia" aspect of any of that.  The cheating should be remedied.

i'd think it'd bother you that the president acts and makes policy decisions as if beholden to a foreign country, because it is unlikely that that country and our country's interests are perfectly aligned.
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

Online Trim

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Re: Trump owns Russia
« Reply #6363 on: July 16, 2018, 06:13:37 PM »
I think people are overall more concerned about national security in general than the 2016 election. And then you have some of the more educated types worried about the authoritarian direction of more and more governments around the world like pre WWII.

I agree that the focus should be on national security.  What is it we're afraid of?  Is this all a first step toward Putin's Russia attacking and colonizing us?

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Re: Trump owns Russia
« Reply #6364 on: July 16, 2018, 06:18:52 PM »
I'm not horrified by the "Russia" aspect of any of that.  The cheating should be remedied.

i'd think it'd bother you that the president acts and makes policy decisions as if beholden to a foreign country, because it is unlikely that that country and our country's interests are perfectly aligned.

I think he and most people do whatever they think is in their own best interest and that Trump thought that cheating, including colluding with the Russian government and/or allowing himself to be beholden to them, would overall be a positive for himself.  He should be DQ'd from being president for cheating.

I'm more bothered by however many stupid Americans fell for facebook propaganda or whatever to even allow such a plot to succeed.

Sort of OT: I don't think that our country can have a collective interest anymore.

Offline sonofdaxjones

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Re: Trump owns Russia
« Reply #6365 on: July 16, 2018, 06:52:52 PM »
https://www.militarytimes.com/flashpoints/2018/07/15/iran-has-no-intention-to-leave-syria-top-official-says/

Quote
Velayati also strongly warned Russia against listening to the U.S. arguments about the Iranian presence in Syria.

“I told the Russian officials: Now the Americans are telling you that the Iranians must leave Syria and tomorrow they will ask you what you are doing in Syria,” he said. “They are trying to split our alliance.”

Offline sys

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Re: Trump owns Russia
« Reply #6366 on: July 16, 2018, 07:14:02 PM »
I'm more bothered by however many stupid Americans fell for facebook propaganda or whatever to even allow such a plot to succeed.

that is more problematic, but it's not something that can be solved, at least in the short-term.  addressing the consequences is much easier.
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

Offline chum1

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Re: Trump owns Russia
« Reply #6367 on: July 16, 2018, 07:14:27 PM »
I think people are overall more concerned about national security in general than the 2016 election. And then you have some of the more educated types worried about the authoritarian direction of more and more governments around the world like pre WWII.

I agree that the focus should be on national security.  What is it we're afraid of?  Is this all a first step toward Putin's Russia attacking and colonizing us?

Putin wants to take over a bunch of countries and make Russia all big and bad, which is a threat to national security. (See Cold War.) If we let Putin do what he wants and end up getting into a war in order to stop him from being too powerful, that would also be a threat to national security.

Offline sys

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Re: Trump owns Russia
« Reply #6368 on: July 16, 2018, 07:21:56 PM »

I agree that the focus should be on national security.  What is it we're afraid of?  Is this all a first step toward Putin's Russia attacking and colonizing us?

Putin wants to take over a bunch of countries and make Russia all big and bad, which is a threat to national security. (See Cold War.) If we let Putin do what he wants and end up getting into a war in order to stop him from being too powerful, that would also be a threat to national security.

i don't think russia is in that strong of a position.  they (putin) are operating from a fairly weak position.  like any country and group in power in that country, they have a number of diverse interests.  ranging from the personal such as being able to secure and enjoy the enormous amount of money putin and his oligarchs have sequestered outside of russia to the geopolitical such as halt, if not dissolve, the eastward expansion of the eu and nato.
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

Offline Spracne

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Re: Trump owns Russia
« Reply #6369 on: July 16, 2018, 07:27:10 PM »
I would bet my entire fortune that Trump has not read the indictment against the 12 Russians. It's very specific and credible.

Offline star seed 7

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Hyperbolic partisan duplicitous hypocrite

Offline sys

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Re: Trump owns Russia
« Reply #6371 on: July 16, 2018, 07:29:37 PM »
I would bet my entire fortune that Trump has not read the indictment against the 12 Russians. It's very specific and credible.

if you mean because he doesn't read, then yes.  if you mean because it would have convinced him, you're no more sane than dax.
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

Offline chum1

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Re: Trump owns Russia
« Reply #6372 on: July 16, 2018, 07:32:07 PM »

I agree that the focus should be on national security.  What is it we're afraid of?  Is this all a first step toward Putin's Russia attacking and colonizing us?

Putin wants to take over a bunch of countries and make Russia all big and bad, which is a threat to national security. (See Cold War.) If we let Putin do what he wants and end up getting into a war in order to stop him from being too powerful, that would also be a threat to national security.

i don't think russia is in that strong of a position.  they (putin) are operating from a fairly weak position.  like any country and group in power in that country, they have a number of diverse interests.  ranging from the personal such as being able to secure and enjoy the enormous amount of money putin and his oligarchs have sequestered outside of russia to the geopolitical such as halt, if not dissolve, the eastward expansion of the eu and nato.

Putin has pretty explicitly expressed his views on this stuff. And I'd say it's more an issue over the next several decades than the next several years.

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Re: Trump owns Russia
« Reply #6373 on: July 16, 2018, 07:34:26 PM »
dictators don't admit weakness.
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

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Re: Trump owns Russia
« Reply #6374 on: July 16, 2018, 08:17:56 PM »
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."