Author Topic: is saturday winnable? (WVU edition)  (Read 19237 times)

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Offline cat97

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Re: is saturday winnable?
« Reply #125 on: January 13, 2018, 06:25:07 PM »
This play seemed pretty simple to me. Two man, pick and pop, then rescreen if its not there. :dunno:

Problem is, usually it's Kam running the point, not Barry, so he probably hasn't practiced it a bunch. Call it a an excuse if you want, don't @ me.
Good analysis and I agree about not having Kam to run it. 

Offline Whisker Biscuit

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Re: is saturday winnable?
« Reply #126 on: January 13, 2018, 07:54:38 PM »
This play seemed pretty simple to me. Two man, pick and pop, then rescreen if its not there. :dunno:

Problem is, usually it's Kam running the point, not Barry, so he probably hasn't practiced it a bunch. Call it a an excuse if you want, don't @ me.
Good analysis and I agree about not having Kam to run it.

I don't buy this.  Barry's the guy to drive for the final shot.  We've shown that before.  he's got to have the ball at the end of the game.  It's his decision to make to drive, shoot or kick.  How is he not comfortable running a play we should have run 10 times in every practice since the rough ridin' summer just waiting for the chance to win a game?

Offline kso_FAN

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Re: is saturday winnable?
« Reply #127 on: January 13, 2018, 07:57:24 PM »
Because it was designed to pass to Dean for the 3. Just like last year.

Offline Whisker Biscuit

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Re: is saturday winnable?
« Reply #128 on: January 13, 2018, 08:02:03 PM »
Because it was designed to pass to Dean for the 3. Just like last year.

I can't buy that either unless Barry was so brain dead he forgot to pass the ball.  Dean popped out and was open and Barry just kept dribbling.  I think he popped only because Barry didn't use the screen to start his drive but Barry wanting him to come back for a second screen...that's what Barry was motioning anyway...albeit with 2 seconds on the rough ridin' clock.

Offline slackcat

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Re: is saturday winnable?
« Reply #129 on: January 13, 2018, 08:12:15 PM »
I'm soooo rough ridin' done with Cat sports.  :buh-bye:

Offline sys

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Re: is saturday winnable?
« Reply #130 on: January 13, 2018, 08:14:51 PM »
Another thing that hasn't been discussed is how slow Wade is with the ball. His drives are almost always methodically feeling out the defense and he's even pretty show in a catch and shoot. (Those aren't really criticisms of Wade, just using him in that particular situation.)

i agree with this.  the people saying he was wide open aren't accurately accounting for the speed of the ball, the speed of the defender and handling time upon receiving the ball.  it's hosmer going home all over again.
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Offline Powercat Posse

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Re: is saturday winnable?
« Reply #131 on: January 13, 2018, 09:25:14 PM »
At times, Wade is slow in his catch and shot, but there are times when he isn't.

In today's game, he got the ball, held it, but got shot off fairly quickly with shot clock running down. He burried the 3 on that shot for the record.  Doke is sooo slow closing out on a shooter...I'm pretty convinced Dean gets a decent look if Barry passes.   

Offline pissclams

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Re: is saturday winnable?
« Reply #132 on: January 13, 2018, 10:24:38 PM »
Another thing that hasn't been discussed is how slow Wade is with the ball. His drives are almost always methodically feeling out the defense and he's even pretty show in a catch and shoot. (Those aren't really criticisms of Wade, just using him in that particular situation.)

i agree with this.  the people saying he was wide open aren't accurately accounting for the speed of the ball, the speed of the defender and handling time upon receiving the ball.  it's hosmer going home all over again.
agreed 100
wade would not have been open
pick for barry to drive was the play


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Offline Powercat Posse

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Re: is saturday winnable?
« Reply #133 on: January 13, 2018, 11:01:36 PM »
Dean has now taken 10+ shots 7 times this year.
4 of those times..Barry/Kam or Barry/Diarra (today) have taken 45.0% or more of the shots.  42.0%  on a 5th game

Dean can get his even if other guards are shooting.   Dean just must be assertive & guards need to get him involved no matter what.

* FYI....Take out first 3 games when all starters played less....games 4 thru 15 when Barry & Kam were healthy, they took about 42.3% of shots.

20.0 pts and 68.4 eFG in those 7 games.
#ShootDean
« Last Edit: January 13, 2018, 11:16:10 PM by Powercat Posse »

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: is saturday winnable?
« Reply #134 on: January 14, 2018, 01:50:01 AM »


It's my favorite thing to laugh at about oscar. He is absolutely awful at final possessions. I'm still LOL'n at his attempt in the NCAA tournament game against La Salle, and that was....six years ago? Jesus Christ. Having Barry lazily walk it up the court and then throw up a contested last-second three was a hilariously bad way to try to win today's game. Color me stunned it didn't work.

You actually think it was planned for Barry to do that? LOL. I'll ask you and everyone else, what should have been called there?

spread the court, drive and crash the boards. I thought that was obvious to everyone in the world

sure but it starts with getting into your set and you can't do that at 4 seconds and expect to get a good shot let alone a put back.  you can't walk the ball up the rough ridin' floor like it's the start of the rough ridin' game.

I mean I would think a coach would have told them to be cognizant of the time remaining in the timeout or like practiced a similar situation in practice or something

That's the deal. The play call was the right one. The issue is that we don't operate in a manner that Barry would be comfortable going quickly there.

I'll be critical of oscar for this but I'll also leave as a possibility that Barry was prepared for this but he got tight because he was playing KU in AFH and the moment was too big for him.

I disagree that it was the right call given how successful we were attacking off the dribble in the second half.

I also disagree the moment was too big for him, I mean he'd just made a three point play and had a drive lead to an offensive rebound the two previous possessions. That's actually a pretty asinine suggestion.

Rusty, what exactly do you think a screen and roll/pop is designed to do?

Also I don't know what you and 'clams are up in arms about, I presented two opportunities as to why a normally reliable player froze up when he had the ball in his hands. Neither of us are in his head, I don't know how you can be definitive as to why he froze.

This particular play was designed to get a three for Wade.

I just think your statement on Brown was just dumb given other plays immediately proceeding the play in question

It was deigned to get the three if Azibuke didn't hedge hard.

And on Brown, yeah, he was fine on the proceeding plays, none of them were the last play though. I also want to again point out that I didn't say that was the reason, I only presented that as a possible reason. It very well may be dumb but you still haven't offered an alternate theory as to why Barry froze up in that spot.

Offline michigancat

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Re: is saturday winnable?
« Reply #135 on: January 14, 2018, 02:43:48 AM »
And on Brown, yeah, he was fine on the proceeding plays, none of them were the last play though. I also want to again point out that I didn't say that was the reason, I only presented that as a possible reason. It very well may be dumb but you still haven't offered an alternate theory as to why Barry froze up in that spot.

Well one alternate theory is no one was in the right place w/ 8 seconds left. Both Patrick and Sneed lined up initially on the right side of the court:





You can say Brown should have still been forcing the issue, and you'd be right, but oscar definitely drew up a play yet wasn't able to get his players to line up on the correct side of the court, and also thought it was important enough to wait for them to get to the other side with 10 seconds left. Did oscar criticize Brown for not pushing it? Not sure, but he definitely criticized him for not passing to Wade, which may have been a mistake but doesn't indicate the "moment was too big for him", whatever the eff that means.

Offline Kat Kid

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is saturday winnable?
« Reply #136 on: January 14, 2018, 08:58:39 AM »
Absolutely think oscar has a lot to do with the problems because he is shifting guys across the court as mentioned. He literally shoved Patrick. 

oscar micro manages all the time, and is often literally out on the court. I haven't seen it mentioned but maybe oscar was trying to adjust based upon their defense, this Barry not attacking right away. Even if this wasn't directly stated, with hindsight, maybe the shift messed with Barry a bit?

He certainly didn't act very decisively. I think people saying that this looked about like most of our end of half situations that are routinely terrible and don't result in a good look are probably about as right as anyone claiming the play worked and Barry just didn't execute.

Absolutely the walk up was what messed the play up, but with the other things that happened I'm not sure why that is 100% on Barry.

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« Last Edit: January 14, 2018, 09:02:16 AM by Kat Kid »

Offline wetwillie

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Re: is saturday winnable?
« Reply #137 on: January 14, 2018, 09:09:07 AM »
Lost by two last year, lost by one this year, I think everyone knows what's going to happen in Lawrence next year:
When the bullets are flying, that's when I'm at my best

Offline Trim

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Re: is saturday winnable?
« Reply #138 on: January 14, 2018, 09:23:00 AM »
The players play basketball better after they practice without him and when they can’t hear him. Things go south when he’s involved.

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: is saturday winnable?
« Reply #139 on: January 14, 2018, 10:14:03 AM »
And on Brown, yeah, he was fine on the proceeding plays, none of them were the last play though. I also want to again point out that I didn't say that was the reason, I only presented that as a possible reason. It very well may be dumb but you still haven't offered an alternate theory as to why Barry froze up in that spot.

Well one alternate theory is no one was in the right place w/ 8 seconds left. Both Patrick and Sneed lined up initially on the right side of the court:





You can say Brown should have still been forcing the issue, and you'd be right, but oscar definitely drew up a play yet wasn't able to get his players to line up on the correct side of the court, and also thought it was important enough to wait for them to get to the other side with 10 seconds left. Did oscar criticize Brown for not pushing it? Not sure, but he definitely criticized him for not passing to Wade, which may have been a mistake but doesn't indicate the "moment was too big for him", whatever the eff that means.

Okay, if that's the case then you agree with the first option that I presented in that post that oscar didn't put Barry in a spot where he could feel comfortable doing what was asked of him. So why do you keep arguing with me about something I've yet to disagree with you on?

And you're being incredibly disingenuous about the mental aspect of player performance on end game situations. You absolutely know the difference between a K-State player having the ball in his hands, in the final seconds, trying to win a game at Allen Fieldhouse, that doesn't feel like any other situation he'll be in, likely for the rest of his career. Are you contending that this end game situation is the same thing as closing out a home game in a December non con is the same as this? Or is your contention that players are unaware of the gravity of the moment, therefore making the concept of pressure non existent?

Offline michigancat

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Re: is saturday winnable?
« Reply #140 on: January 14, 2018, 10:19:56 AM »
Dude you asked me for another theory

Offline michigancat

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Re: is saturday winnable?
« Reply #141 on: January 14, 2018, 10:51:13 AM »
And you're being incredibly disingenuous about the mental aspect of player performance on end game situations. You absolutely know the difference between a K-State player having the ball in his hands, in the final seconds, trying to win a game at Allen Fieldhouse, that doesn't feel like any other situation he'll be in, likely for the rest of his career. Are you contending that this end game situation is the same thing as closing out a home game in a December non con is the same as this? Or is your contention that players are unaware of the gravity of the moment, therefore making the concept of pressure non existent?

No, I don't think it was the same thing as a December non-con. I do think it was similar to the previous two possessions in the same game in the same environment where he made great plays at the rim as the shot clock was running down down and got us the lead and tied it. Did I not make that clear?

I mean, sure the fact that it was the last possession instead of the next-to-last possession made it different, but that seems like an unlikely OK/meltdown threshold to anyone who isn't trying to argue for argument's sake.

Offline #LIFE

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Re: is saturday winnable?
« Reply #142 on: January 14, 2018, 10:56:54 AM »
I think it could have been any team in any arena and it would have played out the same. We've seen this movie from oscar before

Offline Whisker Biscuit

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Re: is saturday winnable?
« Reply #143 on: January 14, 2018, 11:46:47 AM »
I think it could have been any team in any arena and it would have played out the same. We've seen this movie from oscar before

I agree with this.  I don't think this was pressure related at all.  Barry's been in this position multiple times and has shown that he WANTS the opportunity.  I think it was 2 things.  Piss poor preparation for the opportunity which led directly to an inability to appreciate the urgency and response needed (as changes happened) given the time left in the game.  If we had executed well in the past, i'd lay the blame at Barry's feet.  We haven't.  Fault resides with oscar.

Offline Trim

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Re: is saturday winnable?
« Reply #144 on: January 14, 2018, 11:59:47 AM »
I'm mad that I hadn't already realized what mich pointed out re: barry having to wait for people to be in oscar's positions to get oscar's play rolling.  It would be nice to see a football "all-22" video of that all playing out.

Offline Whisker Biscuit

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Re: is saturday winnable?
« Reply #145 on: January 14, 2018, 12:01:07 PM »
The fact that Barry walked the ball up the court, to me, tells you all you need to know about the coaching on this team.  We don't even have to discuss the asinine play.  In rough ridin' high school you learn that you want to be set by X seconds.  you don't just learn it, it's pounded into your head because you practice it every rough ridin' day, multiple times. Get into your set by X.  Is our "X" 5 rough ridin' seconds??????????  If Barry had any coaching at all, he would not have walked the ball nonchalantly up the floor.  It's funny in my mind to think of a Bob Knight coached team doing this.

Offline Trim

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Re: is saturday winnable?
« Reply #146 on: January 14, 2018, 12:10:10 PM »
If barry had pushed the ball up the court, he'd have then had to stop there and dribble for 5-10 seconds while oscar shoved almost half his team to the other side to stand over there.

Offline michigancat

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Re: is saturday winnable?
« Reply #147 on: January 14, 2018, 12:13:21 PM »
I'm mad that I hadn't already realized what mich pointed out re: barry having to wait for people to be in oscar's positions to get oscar's play rolling.  It would be nice to see a football "all-22" video of that all playing out.

It's a problem I've complained about with oscar (and college coaches in general). A general distrust of allowing players to make plays and thinking their sets and plays out of timeouts are way better than they are.

Offline #LIFE

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Re: is saturday winnable?
« Reply #148 on: January 14, 2018, 12:16:05 PM »
I'm mad that I hadn't already realized what mich pointed out re: barry having to wait for people to be in oscar's positions to get oscar's play rolling.  It would be nice to see a football "all-22" video of that all playing out.

https://twitter.com/gifhawk/status/952258249465753600

Offline Trim

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Re: is saturday winnable?
« Reply #149 on: January 14, 2018, 12:20:09 PM »
I'm mad that I hadn't already realized what mich pointed out re: barry having to wait for people to be in oscar's positions to get oscar's play rolling.  It would be nice to see a football "all-22" video of that all playing out.

It's a problem I've complained about with oscar (and college coaches in general). A general distrust of allowing players to make plays and thinking their sets and plays out of timeouts are way better than they are.

Yep.  As I half-joked about in chat, the players did best during the game when it was flowing without stoppage and when it was too loud there for oscar to be heard.